Just a couple of things to add here. One, I have had sellers give me refunds on shipping misquotes, so it does happen.Also, that eBay's Global Shipping Program is just a way for Pitney-Bowes, eBay's brokerage, to make money from the unsuspecting international buyer. According to the North American Free Trade Agreement, there is no duty payable on the purchase or import of used toys, which is what model trains fall under. Yet here's the Global Program, listing an 'Import Fee' at least matching but usually exceeding the price of the item. This 'fee' does not go to the seller or eBay but it certainly goes into someone's pocket.My usual action at this point is to contact the buyer directly to see if he will use USPS First Class International Mail, many will; if not, I thank him for his time & move on.
There are a number of myths that seems to permeate shipping discussions.
First the sellers choice to use a flat rate box. The breakeven between priority and flat rate priority is somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 to 4 pounds depending on where it's going so it's almost always cheaper to ship straight priority.
most train items should never be shipped priority at all. Anything under 13 ounces should ship first-class.
Second, international shipping should be first class international unless it's over 4 pounds yes the tracking is limited, but you can pay for a lot of insurance for the cost to ship priority.
Third, the eBay discount on shipping is really available on at the post office website for anybody. It is their incentive to have you buy online. You also get the same discount from Stamps Inc.
Finally a good rule of thumb while not precise is that eBay's fees are 10% for the item and 10% for the shipping this is particularly true for train items. They are very open and and do not hide their fees you just need to look and see what they are. They are really encouraging buy it now fixed price listings so those insert for free. You can read into it what you want.
Larry
www.llxlocomotives.com
So many trains, so little time,
Sellers fees are charged to the seller. They vary, depending on initial price, etc (why I generally start at 99 cents, b/c it's free) and final value. Rich's cite of 13% is about right, although it will vary up and down (mostly up) depending on the factors I mentioned.
I agree with Rich here. Things usually sell if priced right. Ebay opens up a worldwide market (although some choose to restrict their sales to just the domestic market, for example) that there is no equivalent to.
For our purposes here, I generally think that you get as good if not a better deal on new items coming on the market through your LHS or a trusted online dealer. That because many of the sellers are LHS or other dealers leveraging their stock by posting it to ebay. Since they have to pay the seller fees, there's really no way they can cut you too much of a better deal than if you dealt with them through the usual means.
Where ebay shines for me is old stock and discontinued items I need, brass (on the rare occassions I need and can afford it), and the specialized world of narrowgauge, which you don't stumble over everyday at the LHS. The pricing is generally much more favorable with this stuff for the buyer than on recently released items.
As for my sales, it's generally stuff I don't need or acquired too much of. I stick 99 cents on it and a week later it's turned into some amount of cash, usually less than I dreamed, but always more than I had to start with.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
Buying from eBay is a breeze. It's selling where you really get ripped off.
Paying too much for shipping is nothing, wait 'til you get hit with seller's fees
What are seller fees ? I saw a bunch of boxes for sale and it had a 19% fee associated with it. Is that the "buyers fee" what the heck is that ?
Metro Red Line Buying from eBay is a breeze. It's selling where you really get ripped off. Paying too much for shipping is nothing, wait 'til you get hit with seller's fees.
Paying too much for shipping is nothing, wait 'til you get hit with seller's fees.
In my case, I sell 100% of my used items at an average sale price ranging between 50% and 70% of my original purchase price, and the buyer pays shipping charges.
If you try to sell locally, with a classified ad in the newspaper, you pay the insertion fee, appeal to a much more limited audience and then any and all interested buyers have to come to your home to inspect the item.
I'll stick with eBay. 13 percent is a small price to pay for universal success.
Rich
Alton Junction
yougottawantaI think that is (unfortunately) human nature. "What have you done for me lately" attitude.
Yeah, that's why when I do that, it's not necessarily because I'm fishing for compliments. I'm not giving someone more than what they expected, just exactly what they expected, so it may not get much direct credit from others.
I do it because it's my way of "being square" as we used to say back in Boy Scouts. It's what leaves me comfortable with it being a straightforward transaction. So despite all the policy changes I can't keep up with, it's helped me keep my 100% batting average, but that's sorta incidental to why I;m doing it, for myself.
I think that is (unfortunately) human nature. "What have you done for me lately" attitude.
YGW
richhotrain refund the excess all of the time and never once has a buyer thanked me or mentioned it in his feedback. Rich
Makes you stop and wonder..A honest gesture of a partial shipping refund by a seller--hear the crickets?
Let them find they was overcharged and they can't wait to give the seller a bad rating..
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
richhotrainIs that really taking advantage of the buyer by not printing the postage cost on the label?
Rich,
No, I said that's how it could happen, not that it's that way necessarily. People have lots of good reasons for doing things like that, too. People shouldn't jump to conclusions based on a single metric in any case. This is something that, like my no returns policy, has to be taken in context by the buyer in making decisions.
I guess the reason I do it most is transparency. The more you know, the easier it is to understand things. That's why I find this discount business so irritating, because it's not at all clear to the seller how this works and it may not be to the buyer, either. Sure, it's a good thing to get cheaper shipping, but if this is done so murkily as it is right now, then it's hard for the buyer to clearly see the benefit, which I think it is.
Ebay is likely pushing these to help it seem more affordable to the buyer. Why go to the trouble if you're not at all clear about how this works? Someone there is still working on this, I hope, because I can really see it helping if people were more aware of it. As it is, I learned about it here, from you but it's probably because I ignored this one important tidbit among the mountain of other verbiage we're inudated with from them. Such is modern life.
mlehman About the only way someone can take advantage of a buyer is to not print the postage cost on the label.
About the only way someone can take advantage of a buyer is to not print the postage cost on the label.
yougottawantaI seem to be hearing that there may be a few crooks out there but mostly it is an issue with the whole system.
Yeah, I think that sums it up well. The seller has some limited control over shipping. More often, when they make an error, it'll result in them not charging enough for shipping and having to eat the extra charges. As a seller, you can't bump things up after the fact if your estimates and weights are off.
About the only way someone can take advantage of a buyer is to not print the postage cost on the label. But the weight will be there and the labeling is set up so there's no way to charge more than the standard quoted stret price from the PO.* The discounting can help reduce that and someone could pocket the difference and the buyer may not notice that if the price isn't printed on the label. In my mind, that just hurts you as a seller. Sure, you may already have the guy's money if they somehow didn't get a discounted price on shipping, but your feedback is far more likely to be appreciative if you send them back a couple of bucks than put it in your own pocket.
There is a line where one can add a handling charge over and above actual shipping cost. However, I believe that's obvious to the bidder and can't be hidden, so that should be a red flag unless justified. One case where that could legitimately apply with model RR is shipping flextrack, where a tube might need to be purchased since boxes can be iffy if long and thin.
The key for bidder/buyers is to look at the S&H breakdown and get an estimated shipping charge before you bid to avoid irritating surprises.
* A seller could inflate the actual weight and charge you for more weight than they shipped, but they'd still have to pay the PO for it. If they were trying to shave off the discount, yeah, this might gain them a bit more. But it could also expose them to easy discovery, since the buyer could weigh the package and find it weighs 2 pounds less then the stated postage paid on it, for example. Thing is, that might just constitute postal fraud and it's generally a losing battle to poke sticks in the eyes of Uncle Sam. It could more easily get you negative feedback or even being kicked off ebay if someone found this and filed a complaint about it.
Thanks everyone this has been very enlightening discussion. Amazing the amount of details in such a subject. I certainly understand the condition better. I seem to be hearing that there may be a few crooks out there but mostly it is an issue with the whole system. It seems to have improved from the past but could still use some refinement.
Thanks YGW
[stupid quote thingy not working again...need to upgrade my box, I guess]
Rich wrote:
arrrrggghh, this is getting frustrating. When you use the automatic calculator provided by eBay, it does ask for the dimensions and weight of the box to provide its stated shipping charge which will vary by zip code. But, the stated shipping charge will not necessarily be the final shipping charge billed to the seller by PayPal. It will be discounted by as much as 53%, but that discount will not be known with certainty until the seller prepares the eBay shipping label.
mlehman richhotrain Mike, those are dollar amounts, not weights. I will go back and add dollars signs. Rich
richhotrain Mike, those are dollar amounts, not weights. I will go back and add dollars signs. Rich
LOL Just kidding.
No, I am not estimating the cost. I am using the ebay shipping calculator, selecting UPSP Economy shipping. But the shipping charge that eBay calculates based upon the dimensions and weight that I enter is higher than the final discounted shipping charge billed to me as seller by PayPal.
richhotrainMike, those are dollar amounts, not weights. I will go back and add dollars signs. Rich
OK, then you're NOT using the postal calculator, but manually estimating the cost?
That could certainly be a place where there is room for those who wanted to make money on shipping to put their finger on the scale. Not that you are at all, just that I can see where that could happen with that approach to things.
mlehman All the calculating for the rate is done when I enter the auction. I may end up shipping cheaper than my estimate when things get packed, but there's no calculating on rates, just on weight. And as my experience yesterday shows, this may even lessen the discount that ebay offers because it was less for my example at the lower weight (48% vs 29%).
All the calculating for the rate is done when I enter the auction. I may end up shipping cheaper than my estimate when things get packed, but there's no calculating on rates, just on weight. And as my experience yesterday shows, this may even lessen the discount that ebay offers because it was less for my example at the lower weight (48% vs 29%).
mlehman Rich, The listed weight is your estimate I think. But I think even if you ended up with a package that did weigh that much, the buyer would still see a discount, only it would be for the higher weight. It might be a larger discount than at the smaller weight, if my experience of last night is an indication. Now, you did end up shipping lighter than the estimate and a discount was given. But the discount would've been there anyway in some form I believe.
The listed weight is your estimate I think. But I think even if you ended up with a package that did weigh that much, the buyer would still see a discount, only it would be for the higher weight. It might be a larger discount than at the smaller weight, if my experience of last night is an indication.
Now, you did end up shipping lighter than the estimate and a discount was given. But the discount would've been there anyway in some form I believe.
I will go back and add dollars signs.
richhotrain Jim wrote: "Which is why many sellers ask you to wait for an invoice prior to paying. It gives the seller time to calculate the correct rate." Exactly
Exactly
Well, maybe. All the calculating for the rate is done when I enter the auction. I may end up shipping cheaper than my estimate when things get packed, but there's no calculating on rates, just on weight. And as my experience yesterday shows, this may even lessen the discount that ebay offers because it was less for my example at the lower weight (48% vs 29%).
Where I think you really may be on to something is the wait until invoiced payer getting it. I typically just let the buyer have a few hours to decide whether to pay and they often do without invoicing. I have used invoicing as a reminder to pay after the first 12 hours or so. But if that's how the buyer actually get the discount, maybe I need to start automatically invoicing. I may experiment with that or look into it further. It's not obvious that's how this is happening to me or at least I've never seen anything that said words to that effect, but that wouldn't be the first time that's happened to me with the complexities of ebay.
Soo Line fan richhotrain If the buyer pays the invoice before you create the shipping label, or if the buyer pays for the item before an invoice is issued (this happens when the winning bidder immediately pays upon completion of the auction), he will be paying the higher, undiscounted, shipping charge. Rich Which is why many sellers ask you to wait for an invoice prior to paying. It gives the seller time to calculate the correct rate.
richhotrain If the buyer pays the invoice before you create the shipping label, or if the buyer pays for the item before an invoice is issued (this happens when the winning bidder immediately pays upon completion of the auction), he will be paying the higher, undiscounted, shipping charge. Rich
Which is why many sellers ask you to wait for an invoice prior to paying. It gives the seller time to calculate the correct rate.
BRAKIEMike,7 pounds is a lot of model trains.. When I sell a engine or car I use a flate rate box for the best shipping price.
Larry,
In this particular case, it was one of the rare times I sold something not related to trains on Ebay. It was a set of wheel weights for an old Troy-Bilt tiller I sold several years ago. Now, how are wheel weights so light and still do you any good? They're plastic containers you can fill with sand or concrete, then they bolt to the wheel. Not sure if they're even made any more like this, so a discontinued item (they were an attic find when cleaning up there a few weeks ago.) They were relatively bulky for the weight nonetheless.
Why no flat rate box? Too large and odd shaped to fit into those, so no relief there. Besides, I think $8.55 is cheaper than all but the smallest flat rate box anyway, so I think the buyer got the best deal possible here. And there are a substantial number of model RR items that face the same problem. If all you buy are cars and locos in HO scale, then flat rate can save your some money, but once it doesn't fit into one of those, then you have to rely on the ingenuity of the seller to keep shipping low.
Certainly for a single car (maybe 2), not going flat rate can be even cheaper, because most would fall below the 1 lb threshold for the cheapest Priority Mail rate. I think the cheapest small flat rate box is 20 cents more than the 1 lb Priority Mail rate, for instance, at retail price without any discount. A loco would likely be more than a pound, so then you are money ahead with flat rate assuming it fits the small flat rate box.
richhotrainIf the buyer pays the invoice before you create the shipping label, or if the buyer pays for the item before an invoice is issued (this happens when the winning bidder immediately pays upon completion of the auction), he will be paying the higher, undiscounted, shipping charge. Rich
Jim
I went back through my paperwork and found the data on four HO scale locomotives that I sold on eBay back in January. Here is that data:
Listed Actual Shipping
Shipping Shipping Discount
$15.99 $ 7.36 53.97%
$14.99 $10.81 27.89%
$ 9.99 $ 5.44 45.55%
$12.99 $ 5.84 55.04%
In every case, the buyer paid the listed shipping charge, and I refunded the difference.
Mike,7 pounds is a lot of model trains..
When I sell a engine or car I use a flate rate box for the best shipping price.
As I mention $15.00 for a BB or Roundhouse car kit with $12.00 shipping?
Nuts at best.I can ship that same car by using a flat rate box for 1/2 the cost.
=============================
Rich,I always wait for the sellers invoice before paying-some times I need to request a invoice for combined shipping.
mlehman The buyer used the calculated price to pay me for 7 lbs, but when I had it packed I was able to get it down to 5 lb, 5 oz, so I knew there was going to be a refund. I went to buy the label through ebay and paypal and was surprised to see that the shipping cost for the original 7 lb weight was listed as $22.80! But the buyer only paid $11.82, which was exactly what the calculated cost was for 7 lb. Nonetheless, the webpage bragged that this was a "48% discount."
The buyer used the calculated price to pay me for 7 lbs, but when I had it packed I was able to get it down to 5 lb, 5 oz, so I knew there was going to be a refund. I went to buy the label through ebay and paypal and was surprised to see that the shipping cost for the original 7 lb weight was listed as $22.80! But the buyer only paid $11.82, which was exactly what the calculated cost was for 7 lb. Nonetheless, the webpage bragged that this was a "48% discount."
If the buyer pays the invoice before you create the shipping label, or if the buyer pays for the item before an invoice is issued (this happens when the winning bidder immediately pays upon completion of the auction), he will be paying the higher, undiscounted, shipping charge.
OK, got an update on the largish sounding discounts that Rich noted were available. It's been a month or so since I sold anything -- you can tell how big an operator on ebay I am -- so I was surprised when the heavier of the two items I had to ship showed up with what was listed as a "48% discount."
I entered the weight originally as 7 lbs. I tend to estimate higher these days to be sure I have packing weights covered. I do a rough weighing of the item and the most likely box it will go in to avoid any big surprises, but I don't otherwise prepack things. IIRC, you don't actually see a shipping cost as a seller, just the weight and dimensions.
And maybe it is if I had to walk into the PO and buy the postage. But since the buyer never saw or paid for a number so high, there was no opportunity to profit off of the difference, presuming I could have presented him with the "list price" and he had paid it. The ebay shipping calculator sure didn't do this.
Of course, I had no intention of doing such a thing, just wanted to note there's no obvious way here for a seller to take advantage and rake in the difference the discount seems to promise if I was greedy. It basically makes shipping more affordable for the buyer. I'm hestitant to promote the discount in my auctions, because that would create expectations shipping should be even cheaper than the displayed cost of the calculator.
And I have no control over the discount itself, which was demonstrated when I revised the label to reflect the lower shipped weight I was able to create. My 5 lb, 5 oz actual package weight would cost only $8.55 to ship. However, the discount went down to only 29%! Sure doesn't sound as good as a 48% discount, but since I wasn't pocketing any of the money it doesn't really matter. I went ahead and refunded the $3.27 differnce per my policy of doing that when the difference is a $1 or more between cost and what the buyer paid.
Thus, these may sound like deep discounts and they probably are vs street rates at the PO. However, they're unlikely to be a profit center for the seller unless they're better at chicanery with ebay than I can think of in the way this is implemented. At least buyers should know that they do get a discount.
As a buyer and seller on ebay of train related items. You get some folks trying to make a profit from the price to mail an item. But as others have said - it depends on the size/shape of the package. Look first at the shipping not the item price. Then make a decision.
I got stuff off Ebay you can't find anywhere else. I think that a lot of dealers/sellers know this and so Ebay is a good place to go. If you can find a bargain or a rare item you cannot source anywhere else - then why bother about the shipping price?
Just my 10 cents worth.
Chris.
Loco Guy - is a state of mind - not an affinity to locomotives.
Sit back and enjoy your track...
see stuff at: the Willoughby Line Site
Ron High.But for new or commonly stocked items if you can't buy local the best bet is some of the online retailers.
Ron,I agree..I use three different on line stores as well as e-Bay stores and have no problems filling my needs.
However..
I really miss going to the LHS every Saturday morning even if it was nothing more then looking over the new stock and shooting the breeze and having coffee with modelers I've met during these Saturday morning pilgrimages...
If life could be as enjoyable as that again.