I think I failed to make my point in my earlier post. I appreciate the artistry Furlow brought to the hobby even though I didn't/don't model his style. I am a strictly proto/operations/era modeler, and I wouldn't want or attempt to do what Furlow did, but I appreciate the talent and artistry behind what he did. I can say the same of many of the well known layouts published over the years, that doesn't mean I want to imitate what they did, or how they did it, my hobby participation is first for my enjoyment and second, for others.
But Furlow brought a different approach, made many, including myself appreciate the hobby as a whole and be less narrow minded (not gauge). Today there are too many self proclaimed followers of certain modeling skills and habits, which is fine, but when they start verbally or in print insulting all who don't do it their way, then I retreat into the basement and have fun and forget them.
Once, when my layout was on a region tour, I had a self proclaimed genius (one who is known in the hobby) start loudly proclaiming to the audience all the mistakes I made, what he would have done, and on and on. I asked him to leave, he looked at me and made a remark about my narrow mindedness and kept on ranting. A second request to get out was needed. That is when I really started modeling to suit myself and not the audience. And that is when became very tolerant of what others do or think.
Bob
The middle ground exists when you allow it to. Me? I'm, somewhat, in the middle...I loved seeing what Malcolm would come up with as his ideas did seem to be working for him but I also loved seeing someone like Pelle coming up with his scenarios as well...both worked, for me.
As I have a habit of saying in a certain music forum I'm on..."In the war between the fanboi( RC, in this case) vs the basher( Cartoonist, in this case) can there be a little space for those of us who like what we see but would like to see some improvements as well?"
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Hmmmm, lack of tolerance in Model Railroading. Say it isn't so!
As the local token O scaler, the bashing/love feast for Mr. Furlow is mild compared to getting a semi-obscure brass locomotive's boiler taper "wrong". Or, not caring about steam at all. I've been personally insulted, threatened, and otherwise called scum, simply because I don't subscribe to the Brass Is Best attitude.
I stopped reading MRR on a regular basis during the highly visual, but wildly inaccurate "Furlow Era". Just too much whimsy for me, and a lot of others. This, to me is the Furlow legacy, details just to clutter up a scene. I am an RPM modeler, working my way through the Western Maryland's late diesel fleet, and as such, that is my visual stimulation.
I'm not about to say my way is right. What I am saying is that a prototype approach to a small portion of a mid-size class 1 gives me the most satisfaction. And fun. (just as an aside, my motive power fleet is "bottom feeder" stuff, old Atlas F-9s modified as F-7s, Red Caboose GP-9s with the Roco drives, Weaver RS-3s and FA-2s, modified Weaver GP-38s and other low end locomotives. It works.)
What struck me at the time, was the condescending attitude of both sides in the debate, Prototype at all costs, and the same attitude from the "Whimsy" crowd. Where is the middle ground?
Well, it is just nice to know that Malcom Furlow does not have any more interest in what I do then I ever had in anything he ever did. But unlike Furlow, I don't hold his work in contempt as he apparently does mine.
Furlow is a cartoonist, and that's fine, but it is completely outside my areas of interest. And my modeling is along the lines of Tony K in his freelance/protolance days.
I use to be well rounded until I learned what I realy liked - and it's not Malcom Furlow's work.
But, as I have said to others, my self esteem is not invested in Malcom Furlow's opinion of me or my modeling - and I'm sure the reverse is true.
All of this just reinforces my view that the hobby is becoming more splittered - by era, by modeling style, by RTR vs "builders", by prototype vs freelance, by DCC vs DC, by operators vs "display" builders, etc, etc.
It is one thing to be "tolerent", but yet another to actually be interested in all "factions" of this or any hobby. I surely am not - I don't have a enough time or enough money for that.
Sheldon
vsmith Maybe I don't get out like I used to but in my experience I have never seen someone get snipped because thier layout or model was TOO accurate. As I said I don't do the proto thing but that doesn't stop me from admiring the work of those who do. I think I'm pretty typical in that respect.
Maybe I don't get out like I used to but in my experience I have never seen someone get snipped because thier layout or model was TOO accurate. As I said I don't do the proto thing but that doesn't stop me from admiring the work of those who do. I think I'm pretty typical in that respect.
You ARE typical, and most of us tolerate divergent approaches. I realize this is starting to veer off topic, but as a prototype modeler and operator I see plenty of the backlash exemplified by the Furlow quote Byron posted. As you and others indicate from personal observation, hopefully this is slowly going away.
Furlow admitted to being influenced by the artistry of John Allen, as many continue to be. Too many also forget that Allen was among the hobby's early proponents of realistic operation, and there was more prototyope modeling going on in Allen's work than is often realized. Despite Furlow criticizing operators for offering nothing for others to see, one of his biggest sources of inspiration proved you can have both.
Rob Spangler
rrinker There definitely seems ot be a lessening of the 'rivet counter' mentality as of late - perhaps because they have a outlet to either put up or shut up, liek the RPM - although the tradtional rivet counter who would tell all in earshot all the innacruacies of your model seldom had any of his own anyway. Reading the early years of MR, there were some REALLY outspoken critics of one way or the other of doing things, and they weren't shy about saying it. Today the hobby seems more open and less 'exclusive'. There are still strong opinions on the merits of specific products, but I've seen very little of the "you're not a real modeler, you use sectional track" junk that seemed an ever-present undercurrent in the not so distant past. Instead of scorn, help is offered to the modeler to make things better with the available resources. In direct refernce to Furlow, there were plenty of "that's not a railroad" comments following the last article he had published in MR. So it does go both ways. Hopefulyl the trnad towards less of this type of argument continues. I''ve always found this to be a friendly hobby, where we can talk about the relative merits of doing things one way versus another. I've never run into anyone in person who claimed superiority due to better operation, or nicer scenery, or whatever. Not to me, or to other mdoeleers around me. Everyone starts somehwere, and while erhaps a 4x8 is not the bets form factor for a layut, it doesn't mean you aren't a 'real' model railroader because you have one. Any more than you are more of a 'real' model railroader because you have a barn full of museum-quality layout. --Randy
There definitely seems ot be a lessening of the 'rivet counter' mentality as of late - perhaps because they have a outlet to either put up or shut up, liek the RPM - although the tradtional rivet counter who would tell all in earshot all the innacruacies of your model seldom had any of his own anyway. Reading the early years of MR, there were some REALLY outspoken critics of one way or the other of doing things, and they weren't shy about saying it. Today the hobby seems more open and less 'exclusive'. There are still strong opinions on the merits of specific products, but I've seen very little of the "you're not a real modeler, you use sectional track" junk that seemed an ever-present undercurrent in the not so distant past. Instead of scorn, help is offered to the modeler to make things better with the available resources.
In direct refernce to Furlow, there were plenty of "that's not a railroad" comments following the last article he had published in MR. So it does go both ways. Hopefulyl the trnad towards less of this type of argument continues. I''ve always found this to be a friendly hobby, where we can talk about the relative merits of doing things one way versus another. I've never run into anyone in person who claimed superiority due to better operation, or nicer scenery, or whatever. Not to me, or to other mdoeleers around me. Everyone starts somehwere, and while erhaps a 4x8 is not the bets form factor for a layut, it doesn't mean you aren't a 'real' model railroader because you have one. Any more than you are more of a 'real' model railroader because you have a barn full of museum-quality layout.
--Randy
Randy I suspect part of this more open attitude has more to do with three things than anything else. The first being attrition of age. The RC really hit its stride during the wild and woolly early days of scale MRing when modellers were really trying to out do each other in accuracy and really establish a level if realism apart from the Lionel type layouts that came before. These guys were working very much on thier own and as such really get entrenched in thier ways. But not its been many years since then and as such we've lost many of this generation. As they hang it up so goes the attitude they spent decades modeling by. Second there is such a plethora of accurate scale models, structures, track, and scenic materials that the dissapline needed to scratchbuild a locomotive from a set of plans doesn't really exist anymore and thirdly, we are more socially connected than any time in history. As a result we interact with people of many different ideas and approaches. That interaction tempers our attitudes when we can see and learn that there is not one way, but often many ways to do something. Maybe we should enter the Rivet Counter to the Endangered Species list.
Have fun with your trains
wp8thsub cuyama: All of the "operators" I know think there is plenty of room for everyone in the hobby. Malcolm didn't seem to feel that way when he spoke to Sam Posey. [snip] I don't think the nit-picking crowd ever existed to the degree it's talked about in these and other forums. And certainly not today. On the other hand, I've seen just the opposite many times. All the prototype-accuracy-oriented modelers I know of seem indifferent to Furlow, if they think of him at all. Amen Byron. The passages quoting Furlow in the Posey book show the reverse intolerance that prototype modelers and operators seem to see all too frequently.
cuyama: All of the "operators" I know think there is plenty of room for everyone in the hobby. Malcolm didn't seem to feel that way when he spoke to Sam Posey. [snip] I don't think the nit-picking crowd ever existed to the degree it's talked about in these and other forums. And certainly not today. On the other hand, I've seen just the opposite many times. All the prototype-accuracy-oriented modelers I know of seem indifferent to Furlow, if they think of him at all.
[snip]
I don't think the nit-picking crowd ever existed to the degree it's talked about in these and other forums. And certainly not today. On the other hand, I've seen just the opposite many times.
All the prototype-accuracy-oriented modelers I know of seem indifferent to Furlow, if they think of him at all.
Amen Byron. The passages quoting Furlow in the Posey book show the reverse intolerance that prototype modelers and operators seem to see all too frequently.
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
cuyamaAll of the "operators" I know think there is plenty of room for everyone in the hobby. Malcolm didn't seem to feel that way when he spoke to Sam Posey. [snip] I don't think the nit-picking crowd ever existed to the degree it's talked about in these and other forums. And certainly not today. On the other hand, I've seen just the opposite many times. All the prototype-accuracy-oriented modelers I know of seem indifferent to Furlow, if they think of him at all.
cuyama vsmith: I think thats where he's trying to say the danger lies. I think you are letting your fondness for Furlow's modeling overshadow Furlow's admitted and documented narrow-mindedness. "[Malcolm] told me darkly that Tony [Koester] and his legions of operators had gained the upper hand. 'The operators will wreck it,' [Malcolm] said, 'because they don't offer people anything to look at.' " -- from Playing with Trains by Sam Posey, pg. 151. Random House, 2004 All of the "operators" I know think there is plenty of room for everyone in the hobby. Malcolm didn't seem to feel that way when he spoke to Sam Posey. And many "operators" do a fine job on scenery and give people plenty "to look at". vsmith: Luckily in my experience I have had no negative experiences at any of the shows I have been lucky to dispay my Furlow inspired large-scale micro-layout. I think this crowd if it still exists must be a very very small percentage of the overall community. I don't think the nit-picking crowd ever existed to the degree it's talked about in these and other forums. And certainly not today. On the other hand, I've seen just the opposite many times. All the prototype-accuracy-oriented modelers I know of seem indifferent to Furlow, if they think of him at all.
vsmith: I think thats where he's trying to say the danger lies.
I think you are letting your fondness for Furlow's modeling overshadow Furlow's admitted and documented narrow-mindedness.
"[Malcolm] told me darkly that Tony [Koester] and his legions of operators had gained the upper hand. 'The operators will wreck it,' [Malcolm] said, 'because they don't offer people anything to look at.' " -- from Playing with Trains by Sam Posey, pg. 151. Random House, 2004
All of the "operators" I know think there is plenty of room for everyone in the hobby. Malcolm didn't seem to feel that way when he spoke to Sam Posey.
And many "operators" do a fine job on scenery and give people plenty "to look at".
vsmith: Luckily in my experience I have had no negative experiences at any of the shows I have been lucky to dispay my Furlow inspired large-scale micro-layout. I think this crowd if it still exists must be a very very small percentage of the overall community.
I think we are in agreement. Furlows opinions are shaped by his personal experiences, so what he said in Poseys book is what HE believes to be the case, not necessarilly what others have experienced, or whats really going on. As I stated, I also dont agree with him that the "operators" were going to wreck things, that his own personal opinion, I was just pointing out how I interpreted that line filtered thru my own experiences. I too have had run-in's with the "its our way or the highway" model RRers, but that was many years ago. I havent run into that kind of modeller in the last decade. The level of various approaches used today means that the hobby is far more accomodating than in any time I can remember, and thats going back to the mid 1970's.
vsmith I think thats where he's trying to say the danger lies.
vsmith Luckily in my experience I have had no negative experiences at any of the shows I have been lucky to dispay my Furlow inspired large-scale micro-layout. I think this crowd if it still exists must be a very very small percentage of the overall community.
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
tstage wp8thsub: He reportedly dislikes prototype modeling, and especially prototype operation, having been quoted as saying prototype operators will destroy the hobby. Wow - That's a pretty sad view of the hobby. Maybe it's a good thing Mr. Furlow got out before the whole thing went down the tubes. Tom
wp8thsub: He reportedly dislikes prototype modeling, and especially prototype operation, having been quoted as saying prototype operators will destroy the hobby.
He reportedly dislikes prototype modeling, and especially prototype operation, having been quoted as saying prototype operators will destroy the hobby.
Wow - That's a pretty sad view of the hobby. Maybe it's a good thing Mr. Furlow got out before the whole thing went down the tubes.
Tom
I think what he was referring to is the "this is the ONLY way to do something, THE ONLY WAY" that some types can be a little too fond of projecting. I have no love for Proto modeling and avoid it, but if it floats your boat then go for it, and I dont agree it will "destroy" the hobby. Its not any one particular way to approaching MRing that will help or harm the hobby, but only when a small but very vocal group start trying to push one way over any other way as the only way to do the hobby if you want to be accepted to the MR community, and in doing so push people away from the hobby, I think thats where he's trying to say the danger lies. Luckily in my experience I have had no negative experiences at any of the shows I have been lucky to dispay my Furlow inspired large-scale micro-layout. I think this crowd if it still exists must be a very very small percentage of the overall community.
wp8thsub He reportedly dislikes prototype modeling, and especially prototype operation, having been quoted as saying prototype operators will destroy the hobby.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
vsmith I read on another forum that he has left model railroading after being verbally accosted at a narrow gauge convention by some tight minded guys who couldn't deal with his style of model railroading.
I read on another forum that he has left model railroading after being verbally accosted at a narrow gauge convention by some tight minded guys who couldn't deal with his style of model railroading.
There may be a lesson here about tolerance having to go both ways. I can't speak to the accuracy of the incident above, but ran into Furlow at a narrow gauge convention once, and know (and know of) others who have had dealings with him. He had his own strong opinions about how things should be done (refer to passages in the Sam Posey book "Playing With Trains"). He reportedly dislikes prototype modeling, and especially prototype operation, having been quoted as saying prototype operators will destroy the hobby. Prototype modeling/operation, and artistry are not mutually exclusive. Practitioners of both need to remember that.
Malcom Furlow has always been an artist, FIRST.
He uses different mediums to express himself. Model railroading is one he has used.
Some people, especially rivet counters, cannot accept this.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
vsmith I read on another forum that he has left model railroading after being verbally accosted at a narrow gauge convention by some tight minded guys who couldn't deal with his style of model railroading. How true this is the I can't vouch for but it explains a few things, at least to me, of why after a big spread in MR in 03 he went silent without any kind of follow up by anyone. Can anyone verify if this is true. Furlow is one of my heroes. I'd like to know if he's still active ..
I read on another forum that he has left model railroading after being verbally accosted at a narrow gauge convention by some tight minded guys who couldn't deal with his style of model railroading. How true this is the I can't vouch for but it explains a few things, at least to me, of why after a big spread in MR in 03 he went silent without any kind of follow up by anyone.
Can anyone verify if this is true. Furlow is one of my heroes. I'd like to know if he's still active ..
Apparently, Malcolm Furlow is quite happy in the artist's colony in Taos, NM. As for why he left the hobby, there were indeed disagreements with fellow narrow-gaugers. Whether those caused him to leave the hobby - you would have to ask Furlow. The disagreement still residing in my fading memory banks - perhaps the only one I even cared about - had to with the San Juan Central layout series. I'm not saying any more out of respect to both sides.
And I don't have enough interest to research the disagreements - I wasn't a narrow-gauger at the time - but some of the history is likely buried in the HOn3 Yahoo Group archives and back issues of the Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette.
Fred W
John Olsen and his wife have both worked, designing railroad attractions for Disneylands around the world for many many years. (Decades). At this year's national convention in Sacramento they both presented a ciinic about (largely) a Disney style (or literally) amusement park in Japen.
He doesn't even look remotely like he used to. (Uh...rather like myself...) At lst I thought (I came a few minutes late) he hadn't been able to make it and had a stand in. I don't know if the question was ever raised, but I don't think he's modeling or building layouts as in the past.
Is the Furlow layout you're all referring to the Mexican flavored one in his ranch's barn? I was under the impression from his last MR article that the period where art was solely what he was doing, came to an end at that point.
I personally find the "urban myth" sound of him getting aggravated about comments from other O scale guys would discourage him to the point of quitting. He has always been unique, comedic, "out there" and that's who he is and why his layout was a true one of a kind.
I'd be curious to hear if he really is not building said layout anymore and has really packed it in. Jeez, just tearing that layout down would be like climbing a skyscraper!
Jim
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
To me, Malcolm's series on building the Carbondale Central is, without a doubt, the best project layout in the history of Model Railroader. The man is a true artist and I reread that series regularly. It started in the January 1988 issue.
I appreciate both the Koester and Furlow approaches to model railroading. There is no one way to enjoy our hobby.
Best regards,
Jason
Jason Shron - President - Rapido Trains Inc. - RapidoTrains.comMy HO scale Kingston Sub layout: Facebook.com/KingstonSub
While we're at it, John Olsen and Bob Hayden (C&DR) haven't shown up in MR in quite a few years. Would really love to see what they're up to today.
I was informed off-forum by another forum member that in a nutshell, since he's doing so well with his art that he's focusing on that and not doing any more MRing. If thats so then I'm glad the "convention accosting" story isn't the case. Good for him, but too bad for us in the MR community, I am hugely dissappointed that I'll never see how the 03 layout would have looked finished up. Maybe one day he'll give it a whirl again, but seeing what prices his paintings are selling for...I wouldnt count on it.
Every art form has many versions & I consider model railroading to be an art. Look at the many types of painting, I don't like them all, but recognize the talent behind them. Many types of acting, ceramics, photography,carving, sculpture, etc. Malcom is a bit whimsical, but that was his style. I think he just wanted to move on to something else. He was a great inspiration to me.
I liked Furlow and hope he is still in the hobby. I have been in model railroading since 1958 0r 59 and have listened to and turned off a lot of the self proclaimed gurus who have said "my way or you are all wet" type remarks. There are some enormous egos in this hobby just like any other field. But I enjoyed Malcom Furlow, and his approach even though I am a conventional modeler whatever that is. The hobby certainly has room for all types if the self proclaimed big ego types would just let them be.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Again, thanks everyone for your helpful comments. Most informative!
There's three questions I try to remember before speaking: 1) Is it true? 2) Is it helpful? and 3) Is it kind? My opinion is, if you're a rivet counter, enjoy being a rivet counter; but don't come down on the folks who aren't. This hobby is supposed to be fun, isn't it?
I heard the same stories about Malcom quitting the hobby. There used to be a guy on this forum who would go nuts attacking him every time Furlow was mentioned. Since a thread like this one would have launched him I have to assume that person doesn't post here any more. This guy's comments would lend credence to the story of Malcom getting accosted at a narrow gauge convention.
Personally I always liked seeing his work. Some of his and Olson's modeling has rubbed off on my style over the years. But then I like all styles of modeling from rivet counting to more whimsical layouts (as long as it isn't Thomas or something like that) . - Nevin
Malcolm Furlow has evoked strong emotions in certain sectors of the hobby, especially among those who worry that his style might be contributing to an overall negative image of model railroading in our present-day culture. Sam Posey in his book Playing With Trains - A Passion Beyond Scale, contrasts him with Tony Koester (another "lightning rod" mrr personality!) whose prototype-faithful modeling and operating approach is diametrically opposite of Furlow's - he even goes so far as to say he'd hesitate to leave Koester and Furlow alone with each other in the same room!
In any event, he "is who he is" - and people who disagree with him should just let him be.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
I agree, he doesn't seem the type to bow to criticism . I was always amazed at how fast he could get a layout finished. he definitely had his own style, which is a good thing. His San Juan layout is what got me back into model railroading. I think it was like "tried that, time to try something else".
Rivet counters and purists pounced on his work. To me, his work was and still is awesome. This is a hobby for FUN and doing it YOUR own way is the way to go. To many anal eggheads couldn't see or understand that.
I had taped the tracks ahead shows he had done . Watched them many times. Sent the tapes to Diner friends and they are now out there somewhere. DARN, miss seeing his work.
FLIP
I heard something of the same sort on another forum as well.
I'm kind of suspicious about that story though. He seemed like the type who would rather stick it out rather than cave to some individuals who did not like his approach.