OK, that's enough. Regardless of what any of you think of Malcolm Furlow, he's not on this Forum to defend himself; he doesn't even do model railroading any more, from what I understand. So it isn't quite fair to let people bash him in absentia.
Go find something better to do.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
carl425This has got to be the definitive quote of the Furlow bashers. The unstated conclusion of this statement is "how dare this upstart who can't tell a track warrant from a waybill try to raise the bar on me with his artistic presentation".
And there lies the problem of that era..The hobby was advancing forward in many areas and Furlow's "artistic presentation" was not raising the bar in those advance areas.
It was a two edge sword Furlow's approach was "cartoonish" while Koester's was to extreme. Even Allen McClelland's "good enough/close enough" modeling style was under scrutiny.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRALBut Mike, "art" is highly subjective. I don't like Furlow's art, I don't like George Sellios' art. I respect their talent, but don't share their vision.
Maybe we would understand better if you were to show us your vision. The only images I've noticed you sharing are of wires. Wires are great if that's what you are into, but somewhat of a glass house if you're going to throw stones at somebody else's art.
ATLANTIC CENTRALbut fact is I have spent my life in this hobby
This has got to be the definitive quote of the Furlow bashers. The unstated conclusion of this statement is "how dare this upstart who can't tell a track warrant from a waybill try to raise the bar on me with his artistic presentation".
In an era when magazines like Mainline Modeler, Prototype Modeler and Narrow Gauge & Short Line Gazette's support of the rivet counter mentality was at its peak it was easy (even stylish) to run off this guy who dared to look at the hobby as an artistic expression.
I have the right to remain silent. By posting here I have given up that right and accept that anything I say can and will be used as evidence to critique me.
riogrande5761All that stuff you list didn't exist for me in the early to mid 1980's so, maybe, thankfully, ignorance was bliss.
Jim,The hobby started splitting into mini groups in the mid to late 70s and the days of Saturday morning hobby shop gatherings was coming to a end as the newer younger modelers wanted no part of that tradition and decided "Don't bother me,get out of my way!" was better. Now and since 2001 I'm reading the same questions and concerns that was once asked or discussed in hobby shops.
And yes,as I stated times beyond counting ignorance can be a blissing in this hobby in more ways then one.
MidlandPacific Well, whatever he may have done, he didn't malign anyone's character on the internet and then refuse to substantiate it when challenged, so he has that going for him.
Well, whatever he may have done, he didn't malign anyone's character on the internet and then refuse to substantiate it when challenged, so he has that going for him.
More like, what he had going for him then was there was, for all practical purposes, no internet! So thats a moot point.
Yeah, I do remember when I was a Sacramento State University in 1981 or so, there was the Arpanet, but very few people were on it. Probably most people weren't really getting on the internet until the 1990's, and by then, I think Furlow was largely out of the model railroading public eye. Just saying...
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BRAKIE Jim,There was many ways to spread one's disgust back then like letters to the editor,NMRA regional meets,clubs and yes,hobby shop gatherings on Saturday morning. At one time local train shows was a meeting place because everybody just about knew everybody through the NMRA,clubs or hobby shops.Pity those days are lost forever.
Jim,There was many ways to spread one's disgust back then like letters to the editor,NMRA regional meets,clubs and yes,hobby shop gatherings on Saturday morning. At one time local train shows was a meeting place because everybody just about knew everybody through the NMRA,clubs or hobby shops.Pity those days are lost forever.
Back in those days as a college student, and probably like many others, I was simply out-of-the loop with any of those things. I didn't have any mentors, or anyone try to induct me into the NMRA, I didn't start even go to my first train show until I moved to Houston TX in 1985 and no one shared any gossip with me there. All that stuff you list didn't exist for me in the early to mid 1980's so, maybe, thankfully, ignorance was bliss. In fact, the more I learn about many things through the media these days or the news, or whatever, the more it makes me want to crawl into a hole - preferably a big hole with room for a sizable layout!
But Mike, "art" is highly subjective. I don't like Furlow's art, I don't like George Sellios' art. I respect their talent, but don't share their vision.
Yes the hobby has its complex "artistic" aspects, scenery and structures are no doubt were most of that resides. But exaggeration leaves me cold........
So I'm sorry if Malcome Furlow was disappointed in the percentages of modelers who embraced, or did not embrace his vision, but fact is I have spent my life in this hobby, Malcome just dropped by and then took his ball and went home when he was not a big enough star.......
Sheldon
Time for my ...
Something I've mentioned before a time or two and it never seems to get a very warm reception, but...the trend toward prototype modeling had much of its roots in narrowgauge. Can't get much more prototype-specific than following a gauge other than 4'8.5" for starts. From there, you soon find that a much higher % of NGers follow a prototype closely than those in standard gauge modeling. This tends to come with a fairly high % of these folks, justifiably or not, seeing themselves as a part of a modeling "elite."
So the controversy that Furlow raised had a LOT to do with his approach to the prototype -- a starting place for artistic expression. This did not set well with the "elite" crowd. What's worse, he did it in narrowgauge -- oh, the horror that he's even sullied the very thing that really sets the "elite" apart, at least in their minds.
In reality, Furlow did nothing much that others didn't already do, he just depicted it better -- and by appearing in MR, he seemed to give license to those who were OK with coloring outside the approved lines of prototype modeling. To me, Furlow simply showed how to use the techniques of art to improve the effect of one's modeling.
Maybe the worst thing Furlow did in the eyes of his detractors was to make the fantastic look realistic, undermining the message that "the more prototype it is, the more realistic it looks." In other words, prototype modeling isn't the Holy Grail, but simply one way among several to build a satisfying layout. Whatever we call ourselves or where we come down in this debate, we now all tend to use a mix of methods, both prototype and artistic, to condense our hobby into a layout we love to build if we're lucky enough to have the space, time, and $$.
Some people still want to insist they're not artists at all, don't use art, and stick strictly to the prototype and that's fine. It doesn't mean that art hasn't crept into your lineup of skills, because that's often clearly the case even when it's disclaimed. As a discussion I started some time ago argued, art is part of our hobby and many of us see ourselves as both artists and model railroaders, but it's OK if you want to avoid even the idea that you might just be using art in your modeling. Furlow fully embraced the idea of model railroading as art and that is what really got the goat of many of his most bitter critics. Furlow left the hobby, but his influence lives on in the heightened attention we now give to all elements of the scene, not just the equipment. It's up to you how much prototype flavor you want in the mix.
Mike Lehman
Urbana, IL
riogrande5761Perhaps the scope of controversy would have been much more limited back in that day, what today with social media, the internet and so on, things spread much farther and faster.
How do you think detailed locomotive idea got started? Sure enough wasn't by the internet seeing Life Like released the highly detailed BL-2 in the 80s followed by several highly detailed locomotives in the 90s long before the Internet became a new method of communicating with follow modelers...
rrinker Colorado Ray What was the operational complaint about the San Juan Central? I've studied the plan and don't see any fatal flaws. The right side crossover loop at 3% grade would give a clearance of 2.8 inches at the bridge, which would be fine for HOn3. While somewhat of a characture, it isn't near as much so as some other famous layouts, and the hillside town captures the flavor of several Arizona copper mining towns. You can hardly blame Malcome from dropping the hobby if that's the kind of reception he got. I've never understood why folks feel the need to criticize other's work just because they don't like the style. I personally would never build a layout like that, but I enjoy seeing what others have done. Ray The only issue I really see is with that turntable. If it were shifted to the right a bit, the track could come right in as another position on the table instead of havign that switchback to the engine house and then forward past the coal and water to get to the table. I haven't read the articles in years, but I sort of think there was mention made about this and it was a compromise to allow the main to continue to the edge of the layout for adding more later. --Randy
Colorado Ray What was the operational complaint about the San Juan Central? I've studied the plan and don't see any fatal flaws. The right side crossover loop at 3% grade would give a clearance of 2.8 inches at the bridge, which would be fine for HOn3. While somewhat of a characture, it isn't near as much so as some other famous layouts, and the hillside town captures the flavor of several Arizona copper mining towns. You can hardly blame Malcome from dropping the hobby if that's the kind of reception he got. I've never understood why folks feel the need to criticize other's work just because they don't like the style. I personally would never build a layout like that, but I enjoy seeing what others have done. Ray
What was the operational complaint about the San Juan Central? I've studied the plan and don't see any fatal flaws. The right side crossover loop at 3% grade would give a clearance of 2.8 inches at the bridge, which would be fine for HOn3. While somewhat of a characture, it isn't near as much so as some other famous layouts, and the hillside town captures the flavor of several Arizona copper mining towns.
You can hardly blame Malcome from dropping the hobby if that's the kind of reception he got. I've never understood why folks feel the need to criticize other's work just because they don't like the style. I personally would never build a layout like that, but I enjoy seeing what others have done.
Ray
The only issue I really see is with that turntable. If it were shifted to the right a bit, the track could come right in as another position on the table instead of havign that switchback to the engine house and then forward past the coal and water to get to the table. I haven't read the articles in years, but I sort of think there was mention made about this and it was a compromise to allow the main to continue to the edge of the layout for adding more later.
--Randy
Two excellent posts. I have not read any article about it, but my first impression about the criticism of the turntable location was that the track running to the edge was a continuation of the mainline...future expansion or dare I say...staging cassette.
Edit: I think the turntable is simply put there for artistic appeal. Nothing wrong with that. I'm a prototype fidelity type of modeler but adding something strictly for visual appeal isn't beyond me. Besides, the railroad could have relocated the enginehouse to its present location after it decided it just needed the TT to turn locomotives. There's a story for everything. And railroads move some stuff around and leave other stuff in place to avoid the expense of relocation even if the current location isn't the most efficient.
- Douglas
By all accounts Malcome did thumb his nose at serious prototype modeling just as much as anyone criticized his work. Neither behavior is "acceptable". But again, fans of people like Malcome are quick to criticize his non fans as "jealous".
I'm indifferent about Malcome and his work, I take issue with those so narrow that they can't accept my disinterest without finding fault with me.
gdelmoro I never knew there was such a controversy over Malcom's work. Honestly, I don't get it. Why would someone verbally attack another model railroader just because they didn't like their work? A mature person would say "Ah, I don't really like that." And be done with it and onto something they like. We're they jealous of the attention he was getting? I can't support anyone for demeaning another model railroader's work. I have seen many railroads, weathering jobs and even some MR how too videos I thought were not good but is there a need to publicly attack the work? I think not. Ok well, those that feel they are better than others will always have a need to act out I guess. I was inspired by John Allen's work and he too was attacked. Maybe if this ever happens to YOU, that's when you will know you have contributed to the Model Railroading experience, have influenced modeler's and have been noticed by the community. ALL far more impressive than what most of us have achieved. In many valid ways these people move the hobby forward, bring in new people, ideas and techniques. Bring on the next Furlow, Allen, Armstrong ...
I never knew there was such a controversy over Malcom's work. Honestly, I don't get it. Why would someone verbally attack another model railroader just because they didn't like their work? A mature person would say "Ah, I don't really like that." And be done with it and onto something they like. We're they jealous of the attention he was getting? I can't support anyone for demeaning another model railroader's work. I have seen many railroads, weathering jobs and even some MR how too videos I thought were not good but is there a need to publicly attack the work? I think not.
Ok well, those that feel they are better than others will always have a need to act out I guess. I was inspired by John Allen's work and he too was attacked. Maybe if this ever happens to YOU, that's when you will know you have contributed to the Model Railroading experience, have influenced modeler's and have been noticed by the community. ALL far more impressive than what most of us have achieved. In many valid ways these people move the hobby forward, bring in new people, ideas and techniques. Bring on the next Furlow, Allen, Armstrong ...
I look at it this way. Some artists are model railroaders, some model railroaders are artists, some artists use model railroading as a backdrop, so to speak. Some model railroaders think they are artists even though they are not. And then there are the guys who think they are model railroaders simply because they create an oval of track and post a dozen or more threads which are much ado about nothing.
Malcom Furlow strikes me as an artist and model railroader. Nothing wrong with that.
Rich
Alton Junction
Gary
wp8thsub riogrande5761 I don't think he was so controversial - I read his articles back in the 70's and 80's - not my cup of tea but no controversy. I blame social media and forums for the controversy. The controversy was very real back in the 80s when Furlow was attending narrow gauge conventions. No social media back then, just word of mouth. The man's behavior led to strong reactions. I witnessed it first hand. At one such convention, many attendees were wearing buttons with Furlow's likeness covered by a circle and a slash.
riogrande5761 I don't think he was so controversial - I read his articles back in the 70's and 80's - not my cup of tea but no controversy. I blame social media and forums for the controversy.
The controversy was very real back in the 80s when Furlow was attending narrow gauge conventions. No social media back then, just word of mouth.
The man's behavior led to strong reactions. I witnessed it first hand. At one such convention, many attendees were wearing buttons with Furlow's likeness covered by a circle and a slash.
Interesting. To be fair, I would have been unaware of that controversy because it wasn't very "public" where the average casual train fan like myself could have been privy to things such as you refer to. Being a college student and moving around a lot back then, I wasn't really "in the loop" and just a casual reader of the magazines.
Perhaps the scope of controversy would have been much more limited back in that day, what today with social media, the internet and so on, things spread much farther and faster.
Speaking of behavior, and you may be aware of this, a figure in the model train design and production realm also was/is quite a "character", Chris Clune, to put it mildly, from everything I have been told.
My view is exactly the same as it was 5 years ago. What I dislike about the discussions about these sorts of media gods is that if you say you simply don't care for his work you are called names like "jealous".
There are lots of talented people in the world, not every talent will appeal to every "viewer".
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Well, it is just nice to know that Malcom Furlow does not have any more interest in what I do then I ever had in anything he ever did. But unlike Furlow, I don't hold his work in contempt as he apparently does mine. Furlow is a cartoonist, and that's fine, but it is completely outside my areas of interest. And my modeling is along the lines of Tony K in his freelance/protolance days. I use to be well rounded until I learned what I realy liked - and it's not Malcom Furlow's work. But, as I have said to others, my self esteem is not invested in Malcom Furlow's opinion of me or my modeling - and I'm sure the reverse is true. All of this just reinforces my view that the hobby is becoming more splittered - by era, by modeling style, by RTR vs "builders", by prototype vs freelance, by DCC vs DC, by operators vs "display" builders, etc, etc. It is one thing to be "tolerent", but yet another to actually be interested in all "factions" of this or any hobby. I surely am not - I don't have a enough time or enough money for that. Sheldon
Well, it is just nice to know that Malcom Furlow does not have any more interest in what I do then I ever had in anything he ever did. But unlike Furlow, I don't hold his work in contempt as he apparently does mine.
Furlow is a cartoonist, and that's fine, but it is completely outside my areas of interest. And my modeling is along the lines of Tony K in his freelance/protolance days.
I use to be well rounded until I learned what I realy liked - and it's not Malcom Furlow's work.
But, as I have said to others, my self esteem is not invested in Malcom Furlow's opinion of me or my modeling - and I'm sure the reverse is true.
All of this just reinforces my view that the hobby is becoming more splittered - by era, by modeling style, by RTR vs "builders", by prototype vs freelance, by DCC vs DC, by operators vs "display" builders, etc, etc.
It is one thing to be "tolerent", but yet another to actually be interested in all "factions" of this or any hobby. I surely am not - I don't have a enough time or enough money for that.
I will say this for him: all I ever saw of his work was the photographic evidence, and I thoroughly enjoyed that. I don't care whether his layout worked: when I was a small boy, I saw his photos, and experienced a great deal of the charm and beauty of Colorado railroads through them. That's not an easy thing to do, and I think he deserves credit for it, and for the artist's and craftsman's skills that come through in those photos and his articles.
http://mprailway.blogspot.com
"The first transition era - wood to steel!"
DoughlessCan you be more specific? What did Furlow do or say?
I don't wish to post statements that could cause a problem for MR, so I'd prefer not to elaborate in public. Let's just say I can fully understand why people reacted as they did and leave it at that.
Rob Spangler
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
For whatever reason, this is a highly sensitive subject. Maybe as much so as politics, religion, hobos and grafitti. There was a 5 page thread that was started sometime prior to April 1, 2009. That thread was deleted. It is referenced here: http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/151234.aspx
Have fun with your trains
SeeYou190 What I enjoyed most about Malcom Furlow when he was involved with Model Railroading was his photography. When there was a layout article that had the line "Photographs by Malcom Furlow", you knew your high expectations would be met. His skill with a camera did a lot to improve the overall quality and look of Model Railroader. I believe that has been his longest lasting influence. He also raised the bar in the annual MR photography contest long before digital enhancements. Many of his photographs were very creative. . -Kevin .
What I enjoyed most about Malcom Furlow when he was involved with Model Railroading was his photography. When there was a layout article that had the line "Photographs by Malcom Furlow", you knew your high expectations would be met. His skill with a camera did a lot to improve the overall quality and look of Model Railroader. I believe that has been his longest lasting influence. He also raised the bar in the annual MR photography contest long before digital enhancements. Many of his photographs were very creative.
.
-Kevin
Agreed. And to expand:
Many model railroads are DESIGNED with photography in mind. Its a vehicle for promoting the hobby. Those layouts are often not really the same as our home layouts in that they purposely often emphasize some things and sacrifice others.
Sorry if this is upsetting to people, but there is a STRONG correlation between the modelers who are routinely published and hobby promoters who get compensated in some way for their efforts, either getting their materials at reduced or free prices or using their layout as a stage to promote their products or services. Not a probem in my eye, but many visible people in the hobby play the role of hobby promoter and maybe even self-promoter, which is a different role than most of us. Those layouts generally photograph very well.
I model modern shortlines with fidelity in mind when it comes to track plan and operations. The Furlow layout pictured offers very little of that; however, I think it is beautiful and would have no problem at all building a early 20th century logging roundy round using that layout as inspiration. Its whimsical, but so were George Sellious' and John Allen's layouts, both of whom are well respected in the hobby.
Both of whom also built their layout with an extremely high priority on how well it photographed for publications.
Can you be more specific? What did Furlow do or say?
Furlow was an artist who happened to use model trains as his medium for a time. His work was very polarizing.
Living the dream.
richg1998Some who could not do this were jealous. Rich
Rich,I don't think jealousy was any part of the dislike of his modeling style.
For the record there was those that thought Tony Koester's modeling style was to extreme.
Geared Steam,The hobby was in the growing stage from "train set" layouts to miniature railroad like we see today.
Yes,those was adults.
Did any adults attend this convention?
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
wp8thsub At one such convention, many attendees were wearing buttons with Furlow's likeness covered by a circle and a slash.
Amazing stuff - I had no idea model railroading might be so passionate, well, in USA at least.....
riogrande5761I don't think he was so controversial - I read his articles back in the 70's and 80's - not my cup of tea but no controversy. I blame social media and forums for the controversy.