ATLANTIC CENTRALBut if not I can do this for about $10.
Sheldon,
this may be true for modelers with technical backgrounds who are willing to spend their time building electronics.
but for the majority of modelers, buying commercial hardware is the least expensive option for getting something that works.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911. Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it. But if not I can do this for about $10. And I thought DCC was too expensive to put decoders in my 140 locos, it is really too expensive to control 60 or 70 turnout routes. Sheldon
I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911.
Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it.
But if not I can do this for about $10.
And I thought DCC was too expensive to put decoders in my 140 locos, it is really too expensive to control 60 or 70 turnout routes.
Sheldon
Don't forget NCE's MAP rules. The going price for a Switch-8 is about $52, not $70. The Mini Panel is about $47, not $60. That's for 30 inputs. A fraction the price of CMRI, unless you DIY.
I/O boards for Loconet are even cheaper per bit. And there are far less per turnout options than the Switch-8, which has features which are not necessary in this application.
You really can't compare something you put together yourself with commercial products. I'm doing most ogf my control systems myself as well, and it's not costing me near what buying Switch-8's or the equivalent would run me. Not that I would use them - given that servos are a fraction of the price of a Tortoise, I'm saving more than the electronics cost just by using servos, and an 8 unit servo driver board is $38 if you need more than 5 of them, buying commercially. DIY, even less.
We get it, you love relays. But you can't get them for the prices you paid years ago. If you have a stash of a useable component, by all means, use it instead of paying for something new. But starting from scratch? There's no way wiring all that relay logic is less difficult than plugging in a couple of 6 pin telco cables and coming up with a simple script that says when button 1 is pressed, set turnout 2 to thrown, turnout 3 to closed, and turnout 4 to closed. The 'programing' for the button board is NOT done by trying to figure out that you need to set CV432 to 74 to make turnout 3 closed when button 1 is pressed, it's in plain text.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
gregc ATLANTIC CENTRAL But if not I can do this for about $10. Sheldon, this may be true for modelers with technical backgrounds who are willing to spend their time building electronics. but for the majority of modelers, buying commercial hardware is the least expensive option for getting something that works.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But if not I can do this for about $10.
"building electronics" ? We are not talking about some PC board project with integrated circuits and soldering here.
We are talking about eight or ten relays with screw terminals and 18" of wire cut into little jumpers, and simply learning the difference between the normal open and normally closed side of a form C contact set.
And then following a simple wiring diagram.
That's why I don't use PC board relays, just setting them up to make connections is more work than my whole system.
Ice cube relays with screw terminal bases.......which can easily be changed (read reprogramed) or reused later.
Good quality industrial ice cubes in 12 or 24 volts can be had surplus for $1 each or maybe $3 new, often with the bases.
rrinker ATLANTIC CENTRAL I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911. Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it. But if not I can do this for about $10. And I thought DCC was too expensive to put decoders in my 140 locos, it is really too expensive to control 60 or 70 turnout routes. Sheldon Don't forget NCE's MAP rules. The going price for a Switch-8 is about $52, not $70. The Mini Panel is about $47, not $60. That's for 30 inputs. A fraction the price of CMRI, unless you DIY. I/O boards for Loconet are even cheaper per bit. And there are far less per turnout options than the Switch-8, which has features which are not necessary in this application. You really can't compare something you put together yourself with commercial products. I'm doing most ogf my control systems myself as well, and it's not costing me near what buying Switch-8's or the equivalent would run me. Not that I would use them - given that servos are a fraction of the price of a Tortoise, I'm saving more than the electronics cost just by using servos, and an 8 unit servo driver board is $38 if you need more than 5 of them, buying commercially. DIY, even less. We get it, you love relays. But you can't get them for the prices you paid years ago. If you have a stash of a useable component, by all means, use it instead of paying for something new. But starting from scratch? There's no way wiring all that relay logic is less difficult than plugging in a couple of 6 pin telco cables and coming up with a simple script that says when button 1 is pressed, set turnout 2 to thrown, turnout 3 to closed, and turnout 4 to closed. The 'programing' for the button board is NOT done by trying to figure out that you need to set CV432 to 74 to make turnout 3 closed when button 1 is pressed, it's in plain text. --Randy
I only have one comment, "all that relay logic"? Most all the turnout control logic situations that have been discussed in several threads recently are handled by the same two schematics I keep posting, or require only minor additions or changes to those schematics.
Three possible routes is three possible routes, it's the same schematic, be it a double crossover, two crossovers, or a wye, etc.
A single turnout or a stand alone crossover is the same diagram, etc
Don't make it harder than it really is.
Hey, guys, I am not trying to argue that my suggestion is better than anyone else's suggestion. For me, the Mini Panel / Switch-8 is a simple and somewhat elegant solution to automated track routing.
Is my suggestion inexpensive? Not necessarily. Is my suggestion easier to comprehend and install? It depends.
An electronics engineer will have no problem with the schematics being presented. A modeler who is not familiar with the level of electronics knowledge required to build a circuit board for auto track routing will welcome the Mini Panel / Switch-9 approach. A knowledgeable non-engineering modeler may not want to spend the time required to build his own circuit board.
Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes. Dave will decide for himself which way he chooses to proceed.
Rich
Alton Junction
gregc richhotrain but the programming steps can be fewer and simpler. i'd like to see what assumptions you're making that would make them simpler richhotrain What I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button. i don't see a benefit to that unless you're saying each turnout that needs to be "changed" requires time and by reseting you minimize the time to set a route.
richhotrain but the programming steps can be fewer and simpler.
i'd like to see what assumptions you're making that would make them simpler
richhotrain What I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button.
i don't see a benefit to that unless you're saying each turnout that needs to be "changed" requires time and by reseting you minimize the time to set a route.
The reason that I add a reset button on the control panel is that by setting all the routes back to Normal (green LED) as opposed to some remaining Reverse (red LED), I can visually see at a glance that every turnout has reverted to Normal. That's my only reason for a reset button. It is not necessary though.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911. Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it. But if not I can do this for about $10.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL"building electronics" ? We are not talking about some PC board project with integrated circuits and soldering here.
just wiring up toggle switches is a challenge for many. I debated saying electrical circuits, but electronics was just one word
richhotrainTo my way of thinking, fewer steps equate to simpler. That's all I meant.
that's what i'm curious about; fewer steps
gregc richhotrain To my way of thinking, fewer steps equate to simpler. That's all I meant. that's what i'm curious about; fewer steps
richhotrain To my way of thinking, fewer steps equate to simpler. That's all I meant.
At the risk of sounding however it may sound, if you are smart enough to use this forum, smart enough to use a smart phone, smart enought to program a NCE mini panel and switch 8, then you are smart enough to learn and wire up those two schematics I keep posting, if you want to.
And you are likely smart enough to adapt and modify them for some other track arrangements.
Now if you would rather spend 5 or 10 times as much to do it a different way, well I'm ok with that.
This has always been a hobby about learning and developing new skill sets.
I am not talking about building Bruce Chubb's CMRI from scratch here, I am talking about a few relays and some lighted pushbuttons that can give turnout control a whole new "high tech" feel, and multi location control and indication, without a high tech price or a degree in computer science.
And without soldering any pc boards.
And, if you are going to do signaling, you just got your interlocking "input" information for free from the extra contacts on the relays.
Personally, I hate building circuit board electronics. That's why I buy my inductive detectors, which come with nice screw terminal connections, and, you guessed it, a built in relay output, but wait, there's more. If a situation requires more contacts on a detector, the manufacturer makes a plug in relay repeater, that plugs into the circuit board. No wasting a contact driving a repeater........
And, after seeing Dave's track plan, I will repeat what said before. I would not link the industrial sidings to the mainline crossovers at all, therefor no relays or other controllers would be needed unless he needs them for signaling, or for multi location control.
ATLANTIC CENTRALafter seeing Dave's track plan, I will repeat what said before. I would not link the industrial sidings to the mainline crossovers at all, therefor no relays or other controllers would be needed unless he needs them for signaling, or for multi location control.
Hi Sheldon,
After much head scratching (good thing I'm already bald!) I have come to the same conclusion. If I only wire turnouts #3 and #5 to operate together and leave the sidings separate, the solution is very simple. It will require separate toggles for the sidings, and it does increase the chance of running turnout #4 with the points set the wrong way, but that is an acceptable risk. Ultimately turnout#4 will only be set to the reverse route when I am switching that siding and I will just have to remember to always flip it back to the normal (mainline) route when I am done switching the siding.
Same thing for turnouts #8, 9 and 10. I will link #8 and #10 and operate #9 on its own.
Once again, I will say thank you to everyone who has offered their advice. In particular, I would like to thank Greg for pointing out the flaw in my original logic (i.e. not having any flexibility in how turnout #5 was set), and Sheldon for corroborating my final conclusion.
I want to say that the amount of support that I have received from forum members over the years has been phenominal! When I was with my old club and we were designing their new layout, you answered numerous questions. Many decisions were made based of your advice. I'm experiencing the same thing now and I truly appreciate what you are doing for me!
Cheers!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Toggle switches? Toggle switches?
We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches.
No Mini Panel?
No Switch-8?
No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams???
Fine.
Do it your way.
Toggle switches???
richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Toggle switches???
You're funny mister.
By the way, I do get the Switch8, Mini Panel thing, but I was taken back by the prices.
The prices of all these "black box" components is a lot of what kept me out of DCC (even thought I have a pretty good understanding of what's in them).
There s no one best way to do these sorts of things, it depends a lot on the TOTAL set of goals for the control system.
The relays work good for me because I also switch track power with them, and it allows me to use just one type of control power for all the logic and the switch motors.
And I was serious, I hate building circuit boards, I too would rather just buy them and hook them up.
Wiring relays is much easier than building circuit boards.......
richhotrainToggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way.
Hi Rich!
Sorry I got your shorts in a knot by going simple! At least I can claim that I started a healthy debate!
Simple is best.
Dave-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
If your track were laid out in a tower "model board" wouldn't it look like the above?
Why not a simple toggle, one for each crossover. Then one each on the turnouts leading off the mains? #7 and #9 both go to stub sidings. Do they have to be part of the interlocking sequence?
Does the siding off #6 continue to a branch line or a yard? In either case you couldn't cross over from #3 and #5 to enter #6 so it should be independent, yes?
I have a few routes on my layout that require several steps to plot the route and I rather enjoy "setting up" the route as a real tower operator would, although in later years there were "entrance-exit" machines in use.
I really don't see any reason for high-end electronics here.
Cheers, Ed
Ed, yes, Greg and I suggested that, and that is what Dave has decided to do.....
gmpullmanIf your track were laid out in a tower "model board" wouldn't it look like the above?
Yes, exactly.
gmpullmanDoes the siding off #6 continue to a branch line or a yard? In either case you couldn't cross over from #3 and #5 to enter #6 so it should be independent, yes?
Turnout #6 leads to a spur. Yes, #6 should be independant.
gmpullmanWhy not a simple toggle, one for each crossover. Then one each on the turnouts leading off the mains? #7 and #9 both go to stub sidings.
That is what I have decided to do.
gmpullmanDo they have to be part of the interlocking sequence?
No.
I guess what has happened here it that I started off asking how to coordinate the control of three turnouts with one toggle switch and it turned out (thanks to Greg) that that was the wrong thing to do. I apologise if anyone feels that I have wasted their time, and I also apologise for not understanding some of the responses initially. If I had understood them better I would have figured things out much quicker.
No worries Dave, happy to help.
hon30critter richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Hi Rich! Sorry I got your shorts in a knot by going simple! At least I can claim that I started a healthy debate! Dave
richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way.
hon30critter I apologise if anyone feels that I have wasted their time,
Hanging out at a forum site a waste of time??!! Surely you jest
I'm here to have FUN!
Hi again Dave ,
Sorry my logic with left and right was a bit confusing but you got my idea. My other mistake was assuming the lower track to the left of turnout 4 went to a dead end. But even if it doesn't the only complication I see is if a train is over turnout 5 when you want to change turnout 4 to the straight direction. I have a similar situation on my layout and opted for one toggle to control 3 & 5 and another to control 4.
Cheers
Alan
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
AlantrainsI have a similar situation on my layout and opted for one toggle to control 3 & 5 and another to control 4.
Hi Alan,
That is exactly what I will do. Thanks for your input.
gmpullman hon30critter I apologise if anyone feels that I have wasted their time, Hanging out at a forum site a waste of time??!! Surely you jest I'm here to have FUN! Cheers, Ed
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Toggle switches??? You're funny mister. By the way, I do get the Switch8, Mini Panel thing, but I was taken back by the prices. The prices of all these "black box" components is a lot of what kept me out of DCC (even thought I have a pretty good understanding of what's in them). There s no one best way to do these sorts of things, it depends a lot on the TOTAL set of goals for the control system. The relays work good for me because I also switch track power with them, and it allows me to use just one type of control power for all the logic and the switch motors. And I was serious, I hate building circuit boards, I too would rather just buy them and hook them up. Wiring relays is much easier than building circuit boards....... Sheldon
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Toggle switches??? You're funny mister. By the way, I do get the Switch8, Mini Panel thing, but I was taken back by the prices. The prices of all these "black box" components is a lot of what kept me out of DCC (even thought I have a pretty good understanding of what's in them). There s no one best way to do these sorts of things, it depends a lot on the TOTAL set of goals for the control system. The relays work good for me because I also switch track power with them, and it allows me to use just one type of control power for all the logic and the switch motors. And I was serious, I hate building circuit boards, I too would rather just buy them and hook them up. Wiring relays is much easier than building circuit boards....... Sheldon Yep, we are actually on the same page, Sheldon. I will be quick to agree that those NCE circuit boards are expensive. And, I do find your suggestions helpful and productive. I have made copies of your diagrams and set them aside until I find time to study them. All in all, this has been a highly informative thread. Rich
Yep, we are actually on the same page, Sheldon. I will be quick to agree that those NCE circuit boards are expensive. And, I do find your suggestions helpful and productive. I have made copies of your diagrams and set them aside until I find time to study them. All in all, this has been a highly informative thread.
When you do take a closer look, you know where to find me if you have any questions.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL When you do take a closer look, you know where to find me if you have any questions. Sheldon
On my new layout, I have an interesting passenger station track complex. It ends at the station with a 10-track ladder and begins with two lead tracks off the mainline with a pair of crossovers in between.
I can make that very simple to operate.
i think "techiness" is another aspect that affects how modelers choose to do things
when I flew sailplanes, some pilots were interested in upgrading the planes with "glass cockpits". I think they imagined being fighter pilots.
while a simple toggle switch controlling both turnouts in a crossover may be a godsend for some modelers, it may be deflating for others who were looking forward to a more sophisticated solution.