Hi folks,
My planned layout has several situations where two turnouts that are close together will need to be switched at the same time in order to provide a clear route. I will be using Tortoises with toggle switches for control.
My question relates to the wiring needed so that if I select a given route through one turnout by flipping a single toggle switch, the next turnout in that route will also switch to the correct position. To complicate things, in some cases both routes will require that the next turnout also moves to the correct position. To provide an example, imagine that turnout #1 will require that turnout #2 be aligned with it when #1 is set for the through route, but turnout #3 will have to be aligned when #1 is set to the diverging route. Can I do this with just one toggle switch for turnout #1?
Thanks,
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
A sketch would be helpful, Dave
Are the three turnouts all facing point? Or is it like a crossover situation?
Personally, I'll stick to my rotary switch as I did for this three-way at the steel mill:
3Way_TO by Edmund, on Flickr
Two Tortoises, three routes, simple wiring, easy visual and tactical feel.
I'm sure you'll get far better suggestions than mine.
Good Luck, Ed
Dave, I have done that in my passenger train station which routes trains through a 10-track ladder.
To accomplish the routing, I use an NCE Mini Panel with a pushbutton control panel. The turnouts are controlled by an NCE Switch-8 and an NCE Switch-It.
Press a button and the designated routing occurs with some turnouts using the straight route and some turnouts using the divergent route. The Mini Panel is the key, and it uses simple programming commands delivered to the turnouts via the Switch-8 and the Switch-It.
There is no limit to the number of turnouts involved in the routing, although more complex routes may require more than one Switch-8 or Switch-It.
Can you post the desired track route plan?
Rich
Alton Junction
Yes Dave it can easily be done a number of different ways.
I use lighted push buttons and relays, or you can do what Rich did with solid state components.
If there are truly only two choices for the whole route, I can do it with just two push buttons and two relays. Three routes, three buttons and three relays.
This drawing is for a wye, but this same schematic would work with any track arrangement with three routes:
Push one button, all turnouts move tothe correct position. The switch motors are controlled using the lower circuit shown on this diagram. This second diagram works for two routes, no mater how many turnouts.
With a track diagram, I could draw up the specific circuit you would need. Quality surplus relays can generally be found for $1 each.
Sheldon
hon30critterimagine that turnout #1 will require that turnout #2 be aligned with it when #1 is set for the through route, but turnout #3 will have to be aligned when #1 is set to the diverging route.
yes
a single togle switch can be wired to multiple Tortoise machines
wire the 2nd Tortoise so that its polarity is the same as the 1st Tortoise when they need to be aligned together. this means possibly swapping the wires to pins 1 & 8 on the Tortoise machine.
and wire the 3rd tortoise so that its polarity is the same as the 1st Tortise when 1 & 3 need to be aligned.
yes, the 3rd turnout position will depend on #1 (are you sure about this)?
a possibly example (but has 3 positions requiring 2 toggle switches)
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
I don't know if it will be of any use for your situation, Dave, but I recently motorised several turnouts using Rapido's RailCrew motors.
Two of them, on the two-track line through Lowbanks, form a crossover. With the motors connected to the throw bars, I used clip-on jumper wires to power each motor, in-turn, so that the points were aligned for straight-through operation, then wired them to the same fascia-mounted momentary contact switch which will activate them both at the same time.A flip of the switch activates the turnouts as a crossover, and another flip re-aligns both tracks to straight through. There's no possibility of creating a conflicting route.I run several of these motors and some other ones from Fulgurex, using a 12 volt wall wart - except for this pair, only one motor at a time needs to be activated, so the power supply is never overtaxed.
Wayne
Dave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve.
Here is a diagram showing the two situations that I am asking about:
The first situation on the upper left involves turnouts #s 3, 4 and 5. If #3 is aligned to the diverging route then #5 needs to be aligned to the through route. If #3 is aligned to the through route then #4 needs to be aligned to the diverging route.
The second situation on the upper right is similar. If #8 is aligned to the through route then #9 needs to be aligned to the diverging route. If #8 is aligned to the diverging route then #10 needs to be aligned to the through route.
Sheldon, I know you answered this question not too long ago, but where can I find an explanation for what the various symbols in your diagrams represent. I can identify the momentary switches but I don't understand what some of the other components are. Specifically, what are the components in the upper left under the words 'All' and 'Local'? Are they 'normally closed' relays?
Thanks everyone,
So much easier with solenoid switch machines, toggles for 5 and 4 are both wired to switch 3. No need for a toggle for 3.
My current layout uses Tortoises but I'm thinking of changing to Peco turnouts and switch motors in the next rebuild. yes, I know there is an unrealistic thump, but I also find the noise of the Tortoise irritating!
Bagal
bagalSo much easier with solenoid switch machines, toggles for 5 and 4 are both wired to switch 3. No need for a toggle for 3.
Hi bagal,
Thanks for the suggestion, but I want to use Tortoises because of the built in switches. I will be using Peco turnouts and I already have a bunch of the Peco solenoid switches which I purchased years ago, but I much prefer the operation of the Tortoises.
Hi Dave,
Just wire all three tortoises in parallel and throw them all with one switch. Just wire them so 5 goes right while 3 & 4 go left and when you throw the switch 5 goes left and 3 &4 go right. No need for relays or switch its or even diodes. Same for 8, 9 and 10.
cheers
Alan
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
AlantrainsJust wire all three tortoises in parallel and throw them all with one switch. Just wire them so 5 goes right while 3 & 4 go left and when you throw the switch 5 goes left and 3 &4 go right.
Hi Alan,
Your solution is incredibly simple but I'm having trouble understanding the switch positions as you have listed them.
First, I am assuming that left and right are referenced from the throw bar end of the turnouts, and that the direction refers to the route to be taken, not the position of the point rails.
The way I see it, if #5 goes left then #3 and #4 also have to go left. Having #5 and #3 set to the left creates a route through those turnouts and also positions #4 so that it does not go towards #3.
If all three turnouts are thrown to the right, then the route is through #3 and #4, and #5 is not set to go to #3.
Does that make sense?
Left and right do get confusing, Dave. My suggestion is to first, designate the main track or tracks through the "plant".
I have presumed there is a double-track main through here, represented by the yellow and blue lines I have drawn?
Dave-dilemma by Edmund, on Flickr
Therefore, any switch aligned with these main track would be considered N for Normal route.
If a turnout (or two) are thrown diverging from the main, such as at one of the two crossovers (3+5 and 8+10) you show, those turnouts would be R for "reversed" when crossing over.
Makes it much more logical that trying to understand left and right which would also depend on weather you are facing point or trailing point.
Thanks, Ed
gmpullmanI have presumed there is a double-track main through here, represented by the yellow and blue lines I have drawn?
Hi Ed,
You are correct.There is a double main line running all the way around the layout.
I'm sorry, but I have a harder time following 'normal' and 'reversed' then I do with 'left' and 'right', and when you throw in 'trailing point' and 'facing point' I get lost very quickly. I need to spend some time learning the proper terms.
Regardless of the terminology, the turnout position logic is exactly the same. If turnouts #3, 4 and 5 are set to the 'normal' route they are also set to the 'right' (vs left) route, and if those same turnouts are set to the 'reversed' route then they are also set to the 'left' route.
Please pardon my inability to use the proper vernacular but the terminology is actually a minor issue. The important thing is that I believe Alan has offered a dirt simple solution to the problem. All three Tortoises can be controlled with one toggle switch if they are wired in parallel with the polarities set to match the desired routes. Throw the switch one way and all three go to the normal (right) route. Throw the switch the other way and all three go to the reversed (left) route. Couldn't be easier, and controlling the turnouts with two toggle switches (one on either side of the layout) will work fine too.
Thank you Alan!!!!
And thank you also to everyone who has offered solutions to the issue.
Cheers!!
hon30critterThe first situation on the upper left involves turnouts #s 3, 4 and 5. If #3 is aligned to the diverging route then #5 needs to be aligned to the through route. If #3 is aligned to the through route then #4 needs to be aligned to the diverging route.
when we've dealt with 3 turnouts in similar situations, it seems improper to force both crossover turnouts to be diverging in order to access the spur thru turnout #4. Do you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
it seems more correct that independent of turnouts #3 and #5, selecting the divering route of turnout #4 should force a Stop signal in the eastbound direction thru turnout #3 as well as when tunrout #10 is in the diverging position. Similarly, selecting the diverging route for tunout #3 or #5 should force an Approach signal in both directions
hon30critter The first situation on the upper left involves turnouts #s 3, 4 and 5. If #3 is aligned to the diverging route then #5 needs to be aligned to the through route. If #3 is aligned to the through route then #4 needs to be aligned to the diverging route. The second situation on the upper right is similar. If #8 is aligned to the through route then #9 needs to be aligned to the diverging route. If #8 is aligned to the diverging route then #10 needs to be aligned to the through route.
gregcDo you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
Hi Greg,
That is a very good question!
I had planned on letting a train circle either the inner or outer mainlines while I was doing some switching wherever on the layout, but your observation shows that having all three turnouts permanently linked will limit the switching operations. I'll have to decide if I can live with that.
FYI, I don't anticipate having several operators on the layout all at once. I'm pretty much a lone wolf now that I have left the club.
I'm going to go back and study all the previous posts in this thread.
richhotrainDave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve.
Thanks for the offer Rich. Please be patient. I have to gain a much better understanding of how the turnout logic will work first.
hon30critter richhotrain Dave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve. Thanks for the offer Rich. Please be patient. I have to gain a much better understanding of how the turnout logic will work first. Dave
richhotrain Dave, if the NCE Mini Panel / Switch-8 suggestion interests you, if you can post a track plan, I can guide you through the programming of the Mini Panel which is very basic, almost a zero learning curve.
hon30crittergregc Do you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
Do you really want to prevent trains from passing thru the normal route on turnout #5 when using the diverging route on turnout #4.
Yes, personally I would just wire the two crossovers and leave the sidings separate.
Dave,
The normally closed contacts in the upper left corner should be ignored for your purposes. They are interlocks that allow a dispatcher to prevent local control and prevent any change after the train is inside the interlocking limits.
Keep this in mind with this type of diagram, relay contacts and relay coils are shown where they are in the circuit, without regard for showing them in physical proximity to each other.
Once you get use to this, this type of drawing is easier to follow in terms of what happens, and is actually easier to use in doing the wiring.
May I suggest that you change your way of thinking about turnouts. The "curved" route can be the through or "main" route.
You should simply think of 3 and 5 as a crossover. And think of its position as one idea. It is set for the mains, or it is set to crossover from one main to the other. Which part of the turnout is straight or curved is unimportant.
More later,
This is definitely a natural for route control. You CAN do it with Tortoises and toggles (bagal - there have been at least two articles in the past couple of years in MR on how to do that). But it is ALSO super easy as Rich mentions to use a mini-panel and a switch-8 to drive the Tortoises. Just have to figure out the state for each turnout for a given path - is it thrown or closed? I think I'd go with more than 5 buttons for the whole plant - there is that siding where the state of the other turnouts does not matter, for one. More of an NX type setup - push the button for the track on the right that the train is coming in on, push the button on the left for the track the train will go out on.
Once the logic is figured out, the hard part is done. Buttons get installed in a track diagram on the control panel and wired to the mini panel , a single cab bus cable hooks it to the system. Press button, line turnouts. Digitrax and JMRI refer to this as 'routes'. NCE usually calls them ;macros' but a macro can do other things besides set turnouts.
The NCE page on the mini panel has some documents with examples of how this would all work. In fact, if you wanted a central control panel, there are probably enough inputs (30) on a single mini panel to make a control panel for the entire layout which plugs in to the railroad with just one cab bus connection.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker But it is ALSO super easy as Rich mentions to use a mini-panel and a switch-8 to drive the Tortoises.
i'm curious. can someone explain how you would do that?
gregc rrinker But it is ALSO super easy as Rich mentions to use a mini-panel and a switch-8 to drive the Tortoises. i'm curious. can someone explain how you would do that?
Here is a sample excerpted from one of my track routes.
In this example, INP 01 is a set of program instructions to Pushbutton 1 to access ACCY 5, 4, 3, 2 (turnouts) setting the points Reverse, Normal, Normal, Reverse, respectively. And so on.
INP 02 is a set of program instructions to Pushbutton 2 to access ACCY 5, 4, 3, 2 (turnouts) setting the points Reverse, Normal, Reverse, Normal, respectively. The user presses a single pushbutton to activate the turnouts in the selected route.
thanks Rich
so for this trackwork, the 3 major routes control the 2 crossovers and the spurs are independent of the crossovers requiring 10 pushbuttons?
INP: 01 STEP: 1 ACCY: 003 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 2 ACCY: 005 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 3 ACCY: 008 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 4 ACCY: 010 NORM
INP: 01 STEP: 1 ACCY: 003 REV
INP: 01 STEP: 2 ACCY: 005 REV
INP: 03 STEP: 1 ACCY: 003 NORM
INP: 03 STEP: 2 ACCY: 005 NORM
INP: 03 STEP: 3 ACCY: 008 REV
INP: 03 STEP: 4 ACCY: 010 REV
INP: 04 STEP: 1 ACCY: 004 NORM
INP: 05 STEP: 1 ACCY: 004 REV
INP: 06 STEP: 1 ACCY: 006 NORM
INP: 07 STEP: 1 ACCY: 006 REV
INP: 07 STEP: 2 ACCY: 007 NORM
INP: 08 STEP: 1 ACCY: 006 REV
INP: 08 STEP: 2 ACCY: 007 REV
INP: 09 STEP: 1 ACCY: 009 NORM
INP: 10 STEP: 1 ACCY: 009 REV
greg, that is the right idea, but the programming steps can be fewer and simpler.
What I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button. Once I have completed my selection of the desired routing, when the train movements have been completed, I press the reset button to return all 8 turnouts to the Normal position. With that done, the next time a route is selected, the program steps only involve throwing certain turnouts to Reverse.
richhotrainbut the programming steps can be fewer and simpler.
i'd like to see what assumptions you're making that would make them simpler
richhotrainWhat I do is to add one additional pushbutton to be treated as a "reset" button.
i don't see a benefit to that unless you're saying each turnout that needs to be "changed" requires time and by reseting you minimize the time to set a route.
I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911.
Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it.
But if not I can do this for about $10.
And I thought DCC was too expensive to put decoders in my 140 locos, it is really too expensive to control 60 or 70 turnout routes.
If you assume the "Reset" button is always pressed, you have some known states, so you don't need a line in the programming to set a turnout to normal if it can be assumed to already be at normal.
But I wouldn;t take that bet. I'd just set every turnout involved in a given route every time, making no assumptions. I wouldn't trust myself, let alone anyone else, to always remember to hit the reset button after a train goes through.