ATLANTIC CENTRALgregc and sometimes the solution is determined by what is in the junk box Agreed there as well. As long as my OCD perfectionism is not too offended.
and sometimes the solution is determined by what is in the junk box
Agreed there as well. As long as my OCD perfectionism is not too offended.
mother of invention
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc and sometimes the solution is determined by what is in the junk box
Sheldon
Randy,
I agree completely.
I had circuit boards made, complete, ready to go, for my primary cab control circuit. It is a board with eight relay sockets, terminals and all the relay jumpers obviously on the board.
The same relays I use for everything else just plug right in. In the pictures I have posted of relay panels you can see the cluster of eight relays.
In my many years as a commercial/industrial electrician, designer, project manager, I never found screw terminals on relay bases to be unreliable or problematic, in way worse environments than under my layout.
As I said, I buy relatively expensive inductive detectors from Dallee, and it does not bother me that they will not detect every car, I have no motivation to put resistor wheel sets on 1200 pieces of rolling stock.
Caboose have lights, so do passenger cars, especially the ones commonly at the end of the train.
Yes, I wire some stuff with larger gauge wire than I need because it suits the screw terminal/Sta-Kon method, well proven in industry.
My CAT5 cables are obviously soldered to my LED pushbuttons, easy to build on the work bench.
Most of my wiring is built on the workbench and installed with minimal connections to be done under the layout.
I use a power wiring scheme that gives me free automatic train control, I should post a diagram. But it requires track power switching based on turnout position, by the same relays that position the turnout and provide the interlocking signal logic. So I need my heavy wire and 5 amp contacts there anyway.
Without trying to explain it here, just consider this, until a route is clear, and the block on either side of a CTC interlocking is assigned to the same cab, there is no power path thru the interlocking.
So, if you run a red signal at an interlocking, you train just stops.
See, I am about the easy to understand user interface, on that I think we are of like mind.
Take care,
There are levels of "improvement" - in some ways, emplying a little technology to make routing a train through a complex set of turnouts as simple as pressing a button or two to indicate where the train is coming from and where you would like it to go to is a lot easier to operate than individually controlling each turnout. But then going to the next degree and replacing the simply pushbuttons with a touch screen so you just trace your finger over the path? Not so much better for a large expense.
I am not anti-technology, nor do I want excess technology just because it's flashy and new - DCC makes things work better for me. Touch screen full color throttles on said DCC system do nothing for me, and detract from the experience for me.
There's nothing wrong with relay logic, if you have a handty supply of relays ready to go. But the same thought process that you use to figure out that for event A to happen, you need condition X and condition Y or condition Z (to figure out which relay contacts to link together) IS the programming language to implement using a microcontroller. Or if implenting it with digital logic gates the wording is almost exactly the line of code to implement the same thing in programming logic. This disconnect between hardware and software has always puzzled me, maybe I should have gone into psychology and studied this because it's very hard for me to get this - to me it's exactly the same thing.
I can understnad an anti-PCB sentiment - until fairly recently, you either had to mess with a bunch of nasty chemicals to DIY, or else pay a fortune. Now however - there's really no reason NOT to get a PCB for somethign you need multiples of, especially if making dozens of the same thing. It's too cheap. And when making many of the same thing, the reliability vs hard wiring each and every one goes way up using a PCB. It's not technology for the sake of technology - it's technology that offers very tangible benefits.
I have no problem with a simple toggle switch to control a crossover. I've done it plenty of times. The initial problem statement though, sounded a bit more complex, making the simple toggle approach not the easiest to use or implement. As it turns out, this is not the case, a toggle switch works just fine.
I'm not even anti-relay. I've never had a problem, even with multiple sound locos, using the relay-based PM42 as my DCC power protection. Others say putting even one sound loco in a section, the PM42 will not recover from a short, blaming, usually, the "slow" relays and lack on "intelligent" inrush sensing as touted by makers of other circuit breaker devices. I'm also of the mind to use a relay controlled by switch machine contacts to change the polarity for simple reverse loops - resolve the issue BEFORE a short happens instead of waiting for a fault (short) and then correcting it. If you don't have to, why cause a deliberate fault?
Even my servo controllers use a relay to provide frog power switching. Why not? I could take a whole lot more board space and use solid state switching, and maybe not spend more money than the relay, transistor, resistor, and flyback diode cost, although making the PCB larger would up the cost. For what gain? The turnout has to be lined one way or the other before the train can proceed, so any 'slowness' in how fast the relay contacts move is irrelevant. If you use a Tortoise - the switching time of the contacts is in seconds, not milliseconds, and that's fine, so what's the big deal?
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
i think "techiness" is another aspect that affects how modelers choose to do things
when I flew sailplanes, some pilots were interested in upgrading the planes with "glass cockpits". I think they imagined being fighter pilots.
while a simple toggle switch controlling both turnouts in a crossover may be a godsend for some modelers, it may be deflating for others who were looking forward to a more sophisticated solution.
I can make that very simple to operate.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL When you do take a closer look, you know where to find me if you have any questions. Sheldon
When you do take a closer look, you know where to find me if you have any questions.
On my new layout, I have an interesting passenger station track complex. It ends at the station with a 10-track ladder and begins with two lead tracks off the mainline with a pair of crossovers in between.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Toggle switches??? You're funny mister. By the way, I do get the Switch8, Mini Panel thing, but I was taken back by the prices. The prices of all these "black box" components is a lot of what kept me out of DCC (even thought I have a pretty good understanding of what's in them). There s no one best way to do these sorts of things, it depends a lot on the TOTAL set of goals for the control system. The relays work good for me because I also switch track power with them, and it allows me to use just one type of control power for all the logic and the switch motors. And I was serious, I hate building circuit boards, I too would rather just buy them and hook them up. Wiring relays is much easier than building circuit boards....... Sheldon Yep, we are actually on the same page, Sheldon. I will be quick to agree that those NCE circuit boards are expensive. And, I do find your suggestions helpful and productive. I have made copies of your diagrams and set them aside until I find time to study them. All in all, this has been a highly informative thread. Rich
ATLANTIC CENTRAL richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Toggle switches??? You're funny mister. By the way, I do get the Switch8, Mini Panel thing, but I was taken back by the prices. The prices of all these "black box" components is a lot of what kept me out of DCC (even thought I have a pretty good understanding of what's in them). There s no one best way to do these sorts of things, it depends a lot on the TOTAL set of goals for the control system. The relays work good for me because I also switch track power with them, and it allows me to use just one type of control power for all the logic and the switch motors. And I was serious, I hate building circuit boards, I too would rather just buy them and hook them up. Wiring relays is much easier than building circuit boards....... Sheldon
richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Toggle switches???
Toggle switches? Toggle switches?
We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches.
No Mini Panel?
No Switch-8?
No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams???
Fine.
Do it your way.
Toggle switches???
You're funny mister.
By the way, I do get the Switch8, Mini Panel thing, but I was taken back by the prices.
The prices of all these "black box" components is a lot of what kept me out of DCC (even thought I have a pretty good understanding of what's in them).
There s no one best way to do these sorts of things, it depends a lot on the TOTAL set of goals for the control system.
The relays work good for me because I also switch track power with them, and it allows me to use just one type of control power for all the logic and the switch motors.
And I was serious, I hate building circuit boards, I too would rather just buy them and hook them up.
Wiring relays is much easier than building circuit boards.......
Yep, we are actually on the same page, Sheldon. I will be quick to agree that those NCE circuit boards are expensive. And, I do find your suggestions helpful and productive. I have made copies of your diagrams and set them aside until I find time to study them. All in all, this has been a highly informative thread.
gmpullman hon30critter I apologise if anyone feels that I have wasted their time, Hanging out at a forum site a waste of time??!! Surely you jest I'm here to have FUN! Cheers, Ed
hon30critter I apologise if anyone feels that I have wasted their time,
Hanging out at a forum site a waste of time??!! Surely you jest
I'm here to have FUN!
Cheers, Ed
AlantrainsI have a similar situation on my layout and opted for one toggle to control 3 & 5 and another to control 4.
Hi Alan,
That is exactly what I will do. Thanks for your input.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hi again Dave ,
Sorry my logic with left and right was a bit confusing but you got my idea. My other mistake was assuming the lower track to the left of turnout 4 went to a dead end. But even if it doesn't the only complication I see is if a train is over turnout 5 when you want to change turnout 4 to the straight direction. I have a similar situation on my layout and opted for one toggle to control 3 & 5 and another to control 4.
Cheers
Alan
Alan Jones in Sunny Queensland (Oz)
hon30critter richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way. Hi Rich! Sorry I got your shorts in a knot by going simple! At least I can claim that I started a healthy debate! Dave
richhotrain Toggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way.
Hi Rich!
Sorry I got your shorts in a knot by going simple! At least I can claim that I started a healthy debate!
No worries Dave, happy to help.
gmpullmanIf your track were laid out in a tower "model board" wouldn't it look like the above?
Yes, exactly.
gmpullmanDoes the siding off #6 continue to a branch line or a yard? In either case you couldn't cross over from #3 and #5 to enter #6 so it should be independent, yes?
Turnout #6 leads to a spur. Yes, #6 should be independant.
gmpullmanWhy not a simple toggle, one for each crossover. Then one each on the turnouts leading off the mains? #7 and #9 both go to stub sidings.
That is what I have decided to do.
gmpullmanDo they have to be part of the interlocking sequence?
No.
I guess what has happened here it that I started off asking how to coordinate the control of three turnouts with one toggle switch and it turned out (thanks to Greg) that that was the wrong thing to do. I apologise if anyone feels that I have wasted their time, and I also apologise for not understanding some of the responses initially. If I had understood them better I would have figured things out much quicker.
Ed, yes, Greg and I suggested that, and that is what Dave has decided to do.....
Simple is best.
Dave-2 by Edmund, on Flickr
If your track were laid out in a tower "model board" wouldn't it look like the above?
Why not a simple toggle, one for each crossover. Then one each on the turnouts leading off the mains? #7 and #9 both go to stub sidings. Do they have to be part of the interlocking sequence?
Does the siding off #6 continue to a branch line or a yard? In either case you couldn't cross over from #3 and #5 to enter #6 so it should be independent, yes?
I have a few routes on my layout that require several steps to plot the route and I rather enjoy "setting up" the route as a real tower operator would, although in later years there were "entrance-exit" machines in use.
I really don't see any reason for high-end electronics here.
richhotrainToggle switches? Toggle switches? We don't need no stinkin' toggle switches. No Mini Panel? No Switch-8? No cheap relays or complicated electronic diagrams??? Fine. Do it your way.
ATLANTIC CENTRALafter seeing Dave's track plan, I will repeat what said before. I would not link the industrial sidings to the mainline crossovers at all, therefor no relays or other controllers would be needed unless he needs them for signaling, or for multi location control.
Hi Sheldon,
After much head scratching (good thing I'm already bald!) I have come to the same conclusion. If I only wire turnouts #3 and #5 to operate together and leave the sidings separate, the solution is very simple. It will require separate toggles for the sidings, and it does increase the chance of running turnout #4 with the points set the wrong way, but that is an acceptable risk. Ultimately turnout#4 will only be set to the reverse route when I am switching that siding and I will just have to remember to always flip it back to the normal (mainline) route when I am done switching the siding.
Same thing for turnouts #8, 9 and 10. I will link #8 and #10 and operate #9 on its own.
Once again, I will say thank you to everyone who has offered their advice. In particular, I would like to thank Greg for pointing out the flaw in my original logic (i.e. not having any flexibility in how turnout #5 was set), and Sheldon for corroborating my final conclusion.
I want to say that the amount of support that I have received from forum members over the years has been phenominal! When I was with my old club and we were designing their new layout, you answered numerous questions. Many decisions were made based of your advice. I'm experiencing the same thing now and I truly appreciate what you are doing for me!
Cheers!!
And, after seeing Dave's track plan, I will repeat what said before. I would not link the industrial sidings to the mainline crossovers at all, therefor no relays or other controllers would be needed unless he needs them for signaling, or for multi location control.
At the risk of sounding however it may sound, if you are smart enough to use this forum, smart enough to use a smart phone, smart enought to program a NCE mini panel and switch 8, then you are smart enough to learn and wire up those two schematics I keep posting, if you want to.
And you are likely smart enough to adapt and modify them for some other track arrangements.
Now if you would rather spend 5 or 10 times as much to do it a different way, well I'm ok with that.
This has always been a hobby about learning and developing new skill sets.
I am not talking about building Bruce Chubb's CMRI from scratch here, I am talking about a few relays and some lighted pushbuttons that can give turnout control a whole new "high tech" feel, and multi location control and indication, without a high tech price or a degree in computer science.
And without soldering any pc boards.
And, if you are going to do signaling, you just got your interlocking "input" information for free from the extra contacts on the relays.
Personally, I hate building circuit board electronics. That's why I buy my inductive detectors, which come with nice screw terminal connections, and, you guessed it, a built in relay output, but wait, there's more. If a situation requires more contacts on a detector, the manufacturer makes a plug in relay repeater, that plugs into the circuit board. No wasting a contact driving a repeater........
gregc richhotrain To my way of thinking, fewer steps equate to simpler. That's all I meant. that's what i'm curious about; fewer steps
richhotrain To my way of thinking, fewer steps equate to simpler. That's all I meant.
that's what i'm curious about; fewer steps
richhotrainTo my way of thinking, fewer steps equate to simpler. That's all I meant.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL"building electronics" ? We are not talking about some PC board project with integrated circuits and soldering here.
just wiring up toggle switches is a challenge for many. I debated saying electrical circuits, but electronics was just one word
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911. Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it. But if not I can do this for about $10.
I just looked up the price of a Switch8 and a Mini Panel...........call 911.
Ok, if you want to be able to control stuff with your DCC hand held throttle, I get it.
But if not I can do this for about $10.