maxmanOr did you mean that another thread was "Spiked"?
That is exactly what I meant.
The whole LSM comedy act has gotten worn out.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
MikeyChris Please, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons.
Please, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons.
Lastspikemike There are two types of solutions to the OP's perceived difficulties. Taking out the decoder, or more rationally just fitting a dummy plug if that option is available, I've done both, is one approach. The other is to add DCC capability to your layout which is very simple to do and far, far easier than altering the locomotives. There is no need to abandon DC just because you add DCC.
There are two types of solutions to the OP's perceived difficulties. Taking out the decoder, or more rationally just fitting a dummy plug if that option is available, I've done both, is one approach. The other is to add DCC capability to your layout which is very simple to do and far, far easier than altering the locomotives. There is no need to abandon DC just because you add DCC.
Alton Junction
LastspikemikeI'm quite sure I would have enjoyed participating in this forum years ago but my interest in the hobby was well and truly buried by my professional career at the time. When I picked up the interest again after more than 40 years of just idle speculation I was...
So now you have taken the DC conversion thread and made it the "all about me Spike biography thread?"
richhotrain MikeyChris Please, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons. Lastspikemike There are two types of solutions to the OP's perceived difficulties. Taking out the decoder, or more rationally just fitting a dummy plug if that option is available, I've done both, is one approach. The other is to add DCC capability to your layout which is very simple to do and far, far easier than altering the locomotives. There is no need to abandon DC just because you add DCC. Do you really think that you are going to convince the OP to add DCC?
Do you really think that you are going to convince the OP to add DCC?
"more rationally" because Spike knows what is best for all of us.........
He should have been a politician.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL"more rationally" because Spike knows what is best for all of us.
Lastspikemike just to avoid buying a MRC Tech 6 for a $100 or so.
Come on Sheldon, if you would just get off your wallet and buy an MRC Tech VI for $100.00 you would see how correct Spikey is. Next thing you know, you will be installing 100+ decoders and be as happy as he is.
I was going to take his advice and buy an MRC Tech VI, but I decided to buy another brass covered hopper car instead. Oh well, I'll never learn. Silly me, liking covered hopper cars.
LastspikemikeThe other is to add DCC capability to your layout which is very simple to do and far, far easier than altering the locomotives
Depending on the layout and how it's operated, sometimes just "adding DCC capability" would require a wholesale conversion, usually not easier than modifying a few locomotives.
Lastspikemike It seems easy enough to do by adding resistors to adjust actual scale speeds to a set ratio to voltage supplied to the motor so any locomotive will travel at the same scale speed at any given voltage. NMRA has no such RP or standard as far as I know.
Depending on the power pack design a resistor in line with the motor can produce different results for different power packs.
Additionally, different locootives are capable of different minimum operating speeds.
Almost all my trains are pulled by multiple powered units, all true DC, no dual mode decoders.
Steam and sometimes diesels of different brands are run together with no speed matching modifications.
Most of my locos are more "modern" production, from the last 25 years or so, and seem to be mostly geared pretty closely.
Fact is, if your train really needs the power, and the starting voltages are close, most locos will run just fine together with no modifications, especially on good throttles.
Just to make things even better, most of my diesels are matched sets or are the same brand. Mostly older Proto2000, Intermountain, and Athearn Genesis (just F units).
Suits my needs, they look and run great.
My Proto 2-8-8-2's run great paired with my Spectrum 2-6-6-2's, for example.
Sheldon--
The one question you asked above has been specifically answered by BLI at various times:
You basically asked why they do not offer their engines without the dcc stuff like the Stealth versions they once produced?
They have very clearly indicated on various forums that this for BLI was a marketing decision, specifically that most of their customers are those who prefer the dcc/sound/lighting features.
(Note: Neither I nor my son owns any BLI engines anymore).
Regarding dcc operation, it seems you think that everybody is telling you to switch to dcc? I don't read these forums that much anymore, but I'm not quite sure how it is that you seem to be reaching that conclusion. I for one don't care what anybody else actually uses to run their trains. Your model world is your fiefdom.
I did state above that after extensive playing with various manufacturers' locos in both dc and dcc, that for me the choice to adopt full dcc only operation became an easy one (partly because I like the lighting and some of the sound features are way cool, too).
Also, regarding multiple unit operation, I have tried really hard to match some dcc engines to a competitor's engine, with what in my opinion are very unsatisfactory results. Even matching a different run of the same engine from the same manufacturer can be difficult because they make changes between runs that affect the speed curve. Speed matching locos is not as simple as some claim it to be. Just merely adjusting CV 2, 3, 5, and 6 does not solve all the issues. I have tried really hard for hours adjusting cv's and have contacted the manufacturers as well.
Maybe I'm just picky, but I don't want to hear one engine dragging another whose wheels aren't turning yet or whose wheels have already stopped. It's hard on wheel plating (yes, wore it off some models while attempting to speed match them) and can't be good for relatively delicate model drive mechanisms. Adjusting each speed step would be simple if you knew the settings of the loco you wanted to match, but I find certain decoder manufacturers seem to hide information on their websites. So it becomes very difficult when you have 2 engines and don't know a speed curve of either one.
After many hours of playing with cv settings I sorta come to the conclusion that the manufacturer's default settings usually are the "best" but that doesn't mean that engines will run well together.
So, even in full dcc operation, I find myself buying multiples of the same model from the same product run to be sure that they will run well together.
John
I've combined all sorts of locos in DCC, and I agree, perfect matching is very difficult using the single digit CVs. For me, speed-matching in DCC is all about startup speed and "mainline" speed. The few seconds where one is faster than the other should not be a problem.
Simon
PRR8259They have very clearly indicated on various forums that this for BLI was a marketing decision, specifically that most of their customers are those who prefer the dcc/sound/lighting features.
This is understandable, and I do not fault BLI for their marketing decision. What I do fault them for is the way they treated me when I asked for information on how I should CORRECTLY remove the DCC decoder from MY locomotive.
And then they stole it from me.
PRR8259It seems you think that everybody is telling you to switch to dcc?
In this specific thread, in full disagreement with the OP's request, Spikey is trying to tell us to switch from DC to DCC.
That is where the problem comes from in this specific instance.
-Kevin (Not Sheldon)
Kevin and Sheldon--
Ok, thank you both. I did miss that.
My apologies.
P.S. I most certainly agree that dcc is not the be all/end all. Actually, I liked dcs--the nice speed dial on MTH's DCS Controller was sweet, and overall dcs was very user friendly, more so imo than dcc, except it did lend itself to those who used a majority of MTH products...which didn't work so well in HO where many people run engines from multiple suppliers.
Oh--and there have been times I would have removed decoders if I could or if I could just have a decoder for the lights.
SeeYou190 This is understandable, and I do not fault BLI for their marketing decision. What I do fault them for is the way they treated me when I asked for information on how I should CORRECTLY remove the DCC decoder from MY locomotive.
I am not sure why you would think they need to do that I would not expect Dodge to tell me how to defect emission controls on MY Viper. I would not expect Apple to tell me how to jailbreak MY iPhone. I would not expect Bachmann to tell me how to install real sound in one of their locomotives. BLI should not be any different.
SeeYou190 And then they stole it from me.
That is a different story. What did the police say?
An "expensive model collector"
n012944I would not expect Dodge to tell me how to defect emission controls on MY Viper.
It is illegal to disable, tamper, or render innefective a mandated emission control device. Apples and oranges here.
n012944That is a different story. What did the police say?
When I bought my N&W Class A BLI 2-6-6-4, I got it at a very good price because I pre-ordered it from my favorite hobby shop.
The decoder stopped working in "DC mode", so I contacted BLI for help, told them I wanted to remove the decoder, and then they got snarky with me.
I sent them the locomotive, at my expense, for a "free" factory repair. Then they refunded me my purchase price and kept the locomotive. Now to replace a locomotive (that there was nothing wrong with other than a failed and unwanted decoder), I need to spend almost twice as much, and I am still out the $30.00 I spent to ship the original one to them.
"Stole" is certainly too strong a word, but that is how it feels. I was deceived and ripped-off, and that was dishonest on the part of BLI.
To make a comparrison to your Viper... what if the radio stopped working, so you asked Chrysler for wiring information so you could have a better aftermarket sound system installed that you would prefer anyway. They say "just bring it in to us and we will fix it free of charge."
Then they keep your Viper, refund you what you paid (which was far below market value because you are a savvy consumer) against your wishes, and then say they will gladly sell you a new Viper for twice what you were just refunded for the perfectly good one you owned.
See... it seems very unfair and dishonest, and it is a bad business practice that punishes the consumer.
They could have just said "no, we will not help you do that", and that would have been fine. I would have figured it out myself. Instead, they got me to send the locomotive back under a false promise, and now I do not have it, and spending more than the $250.00 I originally spent just to get the same thing sits very wrong with me.
It is OK if my point of view does not sound right to you. I do hope the further clarification explains my feelings on the matter.
Kevin, you sound pretty justified in your disgust for BLI to me.
Mike
I do not talk about this matter often, and I have never given this much detail before. The situation is really a misunderstanding and an inability to meet expectations.
For some reason BLI did not make the repair, and I am sure that from their point of view refunding my money was the fair way to resolve to matter.
I hate to speak badly about manufacturers, so I have mostly been very vague about what happened with the 2-6-6-4.
This is my one and only experience with BLI, so it by no means should be taken as an accurate sample of how they do business.
What is being discussed in this topic?
1971_Z28What is being discussed in this topic?
How to take a locomotive that was built with DCC (digital command control) and convert it to DC (direct current) control. DCC is the newer of these two control systems, but many of us prefer the older DC system. There are a lot of personal reasons for choosing one operating system over the other.
Some new locomotive models are not offered in a DC version, so they must be converted. That, or accept the limitations of a dual mode decoder.
SeeYou190 n012944 I would not expect Dodge to tell me how to defect emission controls on MY Viper. It is illegal to disable, tamper, or render innefective a mandated emission control device. Apples and oranges here.
n012944 I would not expect Dodge to tell me how to defect emission controls on MY Viper.
To race a car off road such provisons do not apply. Apples to apples.
[/quote]
n012944 That is a different story. What did the police say?
SeeYou190 When I bought my N&W Class A BLI 2-6-6-4, I got it at a very good price because I pre-ordered it from my favorite hobby shop. The decoder stopped working in "DC mode", so I contacted BLI for help, told them I wanted to remove the decoder, and then they got snarky with me. I sent them the locomotive, at my expense, for a "free" factory repair. Then they refunded me my purchase price and kept the locomotive. Now to replace a locomotive (that there was nothing wrong with other than a failed and unwanted decoder), I need to spend almost twice as much, and I am still out the $30.00 I spent to ship the original one to them. "Stole" is certainly too strong a word, but that is how it feels. I was deceived and ripped-off, and that was dishonest on the part of BLI. To make a comparrison to your Viper... what if the radio stopped working, so you asked Chrysler for wiring information so you could have a better aftermarket sound system installed that you would prefer anyway. They say "just bring it in to us and we will fix it free of charge." Then they keep your Viper, refund you what you paid (which was far below market value because you are a savvy consumer) against your wishes, and then say they will gladly sell you a new Viper for twice what you were just refunded for the perfectly good one you owned. See... it seems very unfair and dishonest, and it is a bad business practice that punishes the consumer. They could have just said "no, we will not help you do that", and that would have been fine. I would have figured it out myself. Instead, they got me to send the locomotive back under a false promise, and now I do not have it, and spending more than the $250.00 I originally spent just to get the same thing sits very wrong with me. It is OK if my point of view does not sound right to you. I do hope the further clarification explains my feelings on the matter. -Kevin
It does not seem "unfair". It does seem that you are rear hurt for BLI not catering to those that have not moved on with the times. It's seems to be a theme with certain people on this site that are stuck in the dc world. There is nothing wrong with it, however it is disingenuous to say that someone "stole" something they gave you a full refund for.
Lastspikemike...This solution works better than removing the decoder...
One more time - it does not always work better.
n012944It does not seem "unfair". It does seem that you are rear hurt for BLI not catering to those that have not moved on with the times. It's seems to be a theme with certain people on this site that are stuck in the dc world. There is nothing wrong with it, however it is disingenuous to say that someone "stole" something they gave you a full refund for.
If you had something that only cost you $100 but would cost $200 to replace, and someone took it without your permission and left you $100, I guess you would think that was "fair." Personally, I would say they stole it.
This thread has run it's course. I belong to a fourm that has an emoji of beating a dead horse.
If anyone was thinking of sending me a BLI for my birthday, please don't
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
CSX Robert n012944 It does not seem "unfair". It does seem that you are rear hurt for BLI not catering to those that have not moved on with the times. It's seems to be a theme with certain people on this site that are stuck in the dc world. There is nothing wrong with it, however it is disingenuous to say that someone "stole" something they gave you a full refund for. If you had something that only cost you $100 but would cost $200 to replace, and someone took it without your permission and left you $100, I guess you would think that was "fair." Personally, I would say they stole it.
n012944 It does not seem "unfair". It does seem that you are rear hurt for BLI not catering to those that have not moved on with the times. It's seems to be a theme with certain people on this site that are stuck in the dc world. There is nothing wrong with it, however it is disingenuous to say that someone "stole" something they gave you a full refund for.
Again if that was the case, what did the police say? If someone stole a $100 from me there would be a police report.
Geez, why not just let it go. Kevin got screwed by BLI. Let's face it.
Rich
BigDaddy This thread has run it's course. I belong to a fourm that has an emoji of beating a dead horse.
richhotrain Geez, why not just let it go. Kevin got screwed by BLI. Let's face it. Rich
Sure he did...
n012944 richhotrain Geez, why not just let it go. Kevin got screwed by BLI. Let's face it. Rich Sure he did...
richhotrain n012944 richhotrain Geez, why not just let it go. Kevin got screwed by BLI. Let's face it. Rich Sure he did... LOL, you edited faster than I could reply. Too bad, the deleted part was pretty funny. Rich
LOL, you edited faster than I could reply. Too bad, the deleted part was pretty funny.
It was funny, but I thought better if it. Sitting in Vegas, time difference is important.
BigDaddy This thread has run it's course...
This thread has run it's course...
Yep, about three and a half pages ago!
This is why I never went into detail about the situation before.
I thought I was fair in my overall assessment. BLI probably think that they treated me fairly, but I feel like my property was taken without my consent or permission.
Anyway, it is all a misunderstanding between two parties, and I now know that BLI does not want my business in the future.
I think this thread has run its coarse, which is a shame, becuase the OP brought up a topic that needs discussion.
Lastspikemike CSX Robert n012944 It does not seem "unfair". It does seem that you are rear hurt for BLI not catering to those that have not moved on with the times. It's seems to be a theme with certain people on this site that are stuck in the dc world. There is nothing wrong with it, however it is disingenuous to say that someone "stole" something they gave you a full refund for. If you had something that only cost you $100 but would cost $200 to replace, and someone took it without your permission and left you $100, I guess you would think that was "fair." Personally, I would say they stole it. Replacement cost is not value, just btw. What is level for the seller to do with a return depends on the sale contract. Most such sale contracts expressly permit repair, substitution or refund of price. The customer voluntarily returns the item purchased anyway so the vendor doesn't ever steal anything by refunding the price. Theft requures a wrongful taking in the first place. Technically, there are three categories: conversion, detinue and trespass to personal property. Only the last can be theft, strictly speaking. As for taking out a decoder just to run a locomotive equipped for DCC that seems an inferior solution to just running it under DCC power unless you have no choice. Fitting a dummy plug would always make more sense than removing the decoder unless you have no choice. I can't imagine why you'd ever have no choice.
Replacement cost is not value, just btw.
What is level for the seller to do with a return depends on the sale contract. Most such sale contracts expressly permit repair, substitution or refund of price. The customer voluntarily returns the item purchased anyway so the vendor doesn't ever steal anything by refunding the price. Theft requures a wrongful taking in the first place. Technically, there are three categories: conversion, detinue and trespass to personal property. Only the last can be theft, strictly speaking.
As for taking out a decoder just to run a locomotive equipped for DCC that seems an inferior solution to just running it under DCC power unless you have no choice. Fitting a dummy plug would always make more sense than removing the decoder unless you have no choice. I can't imagine why you'd ever have no choice.
Do you really have no understanding of the fact that if you unplug a decoder and plug in a dummy plug, you have COMPLETELY removed the decoder from the electrical circuits of the locomotive, even if you physically leave it in the loco?
I have dozens of locos that came with DCC decoders pluged into 8 pin sockets that now have dummy plugs in those 8 pin sockets.
And the decoders have all found new homes via Ebay.
For nearly two decades, Bachmann and others included dummy plugs with their DCC locos to aid in decoder removal and return to DC operation. BLI has a different view....... I cut those out and rewire them and throw the decoders in the trash.
Spike, you still don't get it.
But I don't care, I took the Grandson to the big tractor event this weekend.
He drove the tractor in the parade of power.