Hi All,
I run old school DC but have some "dual mode" locos that really don't run well on DC. I want to remove the decoders and hardwire them for DC. My question is: since they all have lighting features and some have DC sound, am I just trying to do something not worth doing? Please, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons. The reason I bought the locos I did (mostly BLI, both steam and diesels) is because I wanted the road name/paint schemes. But if I can't run them decently, they will just sit on the shelf. The issues with running are: too much momentum, limited speed control range due to the limited voltage swing (seems like between 8 volts and full throttle is about it), the Rapido SW1200RS's and RS18's have the same issues along with weird lighting issues (like class lights on one side work, but not the other). But my main issue is limited speed range control. BTW I'm using MRC 9500 power packs. they perform beautifully on my older DC stuff. Thanx!
MikeyChrisMy question is: since they all have lighting features and some have DC sound, am I just trying to do something not worth doing?
The one "sure-fire" way to make your locomotives operate on DC rail power is to simply eliminate the decoder altogether.
A second method might require more experimentation and may, or may not, provide you with "DC sound and lighting effects", and that would be to clip the two motor leads and solder them to the right (+ for forward) rail pickup and left pickup.
This is "essentially" the way the Blue Line locomotives were wired, with a "dummy plug" substituting an additional motor-only decoder.
In the case for older QSI and also the BLI Paragon sound you will not get any steam "chuff" sound since the decoder relies on motor resistance or in the Paragon, a reed switch chuff sensor.
I'm presently ripping the guts out of several BLI steam locomotives. In my case I'm replacing older QSI decoders with more recent, aftermarket sound decoders.
Part of this process is stripping the locos to bare bones wiring. In the case of BLI steam you have (generally) rail pickup from both sides of the drivers and sometimes trailing trucks and one side of each tender truck.
Thus you can directly solder the motor leads (again motor + to the right rail will move the loco forward) and you'd be done.
Getting into lighting you have to determine weather your headlight is a 1.5 volt incandescent lamp or an LED. There are "constant brightness" diode lighting circuits out there you can use to at least maintain the headlight function.
Eliminating the decoder completely, of course, eliminates any source for sound.
You could experiment with bypassing the decoder as in method one, wiring the motor directly to each rail pickup and see if you still have "some" sounds remaining in "DC mode" but without feedback from the motor you may not have any kind of "chuffing" or diesel prime mover reving sounds.
Good Luck, Ed
MikeyChrisPlease, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons.
I also prefer DC, and do get annoyed when people constantly ask why.
It comes down to these three factors for me:
1) I own an extensive fleet of DC locomotives that I do not want to replace or add decoders to.
2) I do not want sound at all.
3) I am 100% competent at wiring and troubleshooting DC systems with no help from others.
DC is right for me, and it sounds like for you as well.
I do wish that manufacturers would simply include a jumper plug with locomotives where we could unplug the DCC decoder and run on normal DC. I am also not happy with dual-mode decoders at all.
If this "DC mode jumper" was in there, I would certainly buy more locomotives.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
MikeyChrisPlease, no comments on WHY I prefer DC.
--Truly though it makes more sense to just switch over to a DCC system and add decoders to your DC only locomotives.
And there we go...
I’m somewhat confused, from your Bio you have the experience to convert your locomotives to DC operation easily.I would just remove the decoders and wire them for DC operation and experiment with the lighting.I too am a DC guy at hart but wanted sound and after dinking around with Mel added sound for years I decided to go DCC just for the sound. I operate my layout dual mode, DC or DCC, DCC mode when I want to hear the chuff of my articulated locomotives. About 60% DC 10% DCC the rest scenery.I too am somewhat of a collector, I’m really into restoring clunkers off eBay and train shows. I have a bit over 70 locomotives all restored to as good if not better than original out of the box. I only have 12 decoders and swap them around, I wired all my locomotives for DCC operation using the standard DCC 8 pin sockets with DC adapter plugs for DC operation.You could go dual mode easily without changing anything, run your DCC locomotives on DCC and the rest in DC mode. A low priced DCC controller could be hooked up to your DC wiring using a DPDT switch. I use a relay with the coil operated by the accessory terminals on my DC power pack. When I turn on the DC power pack the relay pulls in and switches the track from the DCC controller to the DC power pack.Good luck which ever way you go!Mel My Model Railroad http://melvineperry.blogspot.com/ Bakersfield, California I'm beginning to realize that aging is not for wimps.
LastspikemikeThe easiest way to run a dual mode constantly in DC is to unplug the decoder and plug in a "dummy plug" which restores the direct wiring between power pickup and power outputs.
Unless it is BLI's BlueLine, there is no provision for a dummy plug. More often manufacturers are phasing out the use of the NMRA 8 pin plug.
Lastspikemike If you actually do prefer DC only, you're not just claiming to, then stop buying locomotives with DCC and sound. Simple solution.
Some locomotives are only available with DCC and sound.
CSX RobertSome locomotives are only available with DCC and sound.
That seems to be where the market is heading, so the upscale model train locomotive market has left me and "MikeyChris" behind.
That is OK. To get the locomotives I want, I would be willing to buy one with DCC and sound. I understand the realities of manufacturing.
I would buy one...
The manufacturer would provide the information and/or any parts needed to easily and correctly remove the decoder and convert the locomotive to basic silent DC operation.
Are you listening BLI?
SeeYou190SeeYou190 wrote the following post an hour ago: CSX Robert Some locomotives are only available with DCC and sound. That seems to be where the market is heading, so the upscale model train locomotive market has left me and "MikeyChris" behind.
Kindly count me in with your "left behind" group. My layout is strictly DC, with no fake sounds (depending on what my last meal might have been, of course), and no lights on locos, and cabooses, and none in or on passenger cars and structures, either, as I don't do "night" operations. I put a lot of effort into my layout, and want to see all of it, all of the time.My locos are all self-speed matching...simply hang a substantial train on them and they cooperate just fine. No bus wires, either - two wires to the track near the powerpack power every piece of track on the layout.While I almost never run more more than one train at a time, I have run over a dozen locos at one time, as an amusement chase for my grandkids.
DC may be "old school", but it's reliable, easy to troubleshoot and much more affordable than DCC.
As for DCC sound, I'd rate the diesel sounds to be pretty good, those for steam, less-so. However, I do remember steam, and its sounds.
I spent almost four decades in a steel mill...I don't need anymore sounds, real or artificial.
Wayne
SeeYou190Are you listening BLI?
Broadway Limited had their Stealth series, before Blue Line IIRC, back in 2005.
You really can't blame them if they "ran it up the flagpole" and nobody saluted.
It would seem there simply wasn't enough response to make it economically viable.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/47369.aspx
Even a little mud-slinging in that old thread
https://www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/060854/HO-BLI-1081-Broadway-Limited-Stealth-Series-ATSF-3800-Class-2-10-2-3877-No-Sound-or-DCC
Regards, Ed
gmpullmanBroadway Limited had their Stealth series, before Blue Line IIRC, back in 2005. You really can't blame them if they "ran it up the flagpole" and nobody saluted. It would seem there simply wasn't enough response to make it economically viable.
Sorry, my issues with BLI are personal because of how they handled my 2-6-6-4.
I had no problem buying a DCC and sound equipped model, I just wanted to know how to properly remove the decoder.
OK, I won't say anything more about it now. Sorry for ranting. I feel better.
doctorwayneDC may be "old school", but it's reliable, easy to troubleshoot and much more affordable than DCC
And that is why I am old school DC too!!
Note that if you have an engine that's not decoder equipped - has a green light board with a dummy plug - it's still most likely going to affect how it runs. Most lightboards are set up to allow for "constant lighting", meaning the first several volts of power you apply go to the lights, then when you go above that amount the board sends power to the motor. The idea is you can turn the throttle down but not off and the lights will still be on, they won't turn off when you stop the engine.
That's all fine, but if you have older DC engines that don't have the light board, they're not going to work together that well since the older DC engines will start sooner and run faster. If you have both, you may find it better to just remove the light boards altogether and 'hardwire' everything.
LastspikemikeYes, and?
And it's silly to ask people who prefer DC to stop buying locos with DCC and sound when that is the only way some of the locos they want are available (sorry, I thought that part was obvious).
CSX RobertSorry, I thought that part was obvious.
It was completely obvious.
MikeyChris Hi All, I run old school DC but have some "dual mode" locos that really don't run well on DC. I want to remove the decoders and hardwire them for DC. My question is: since they all have lighting features and some have DC sound, am I just trying to do something not worth doing? Please, no comments on WHY I prefer DC, I DO for many reasons. The reason I bought the locos I did (mostly BLI, both steam and diesels) is because I wanted the road name/paint schemes. But if I can't run them decently, they will just sit on the shelf. The issues with running are: too much momentum, limited speed control range due to the limited voltage swing (seems like between 8 volts and full throttle is about it), the Rapido SW1200RS's and RS18's have the same issues along with weird lighting issues (like class lights on one side work, but not the other). But my main issue is limited speed range control. BTW I'm using MRC 9500 power packs. they perform beautifully on my older DC stuff. Thanx!
You can remove all of the electronics and simply directly connect the truck power to the motor. That would give you the most consistent operations.
Connecting the lights, if you want lights, will probably require resistors in the lighting circuit as to not immediately burn out the LEDs, which are standard equipment now for any loco built in the last 3 or 5 years. And you'll have to build your own directional lighting circuit.
If it were me, I would seek out green DCC Ready light boards or any old school DC light board. Either new from manufacturers (I think Athearn sells them for example) or used from the auction site. (Many people list them for sale when they convert DC to DCC). The DCC Ready ones MAY have resistor lighting circuits built in, but you may still have to install resistors, and they are all directional lighting when built.
Just make sure that the shape of the boards will fit into the loco, given its motor and weights configurations.
- Douglas
Hi there. I can't really quote my source (it is another forum), but it appears that some decoders do not perform well with the MRC 9500 power packs. Could it be because of the pulse power? Perhaps someone more knowledge than I could confirm. If the power source is the issue, I would definitely change that before removing decoders and speakers .
Simon
Not sure if this is germain but when I was looking to purchse a power pack from MRC I came across this warning:
ATTENTION: MRC has proudly manufactured Power Packs since 1947 and has sold more than 1 Million products to satisfied customers in North America without any issue during this time. Evidently, Rapido Trains, a relatively new train manufacturer has allegedly not made their locomotives suitable for use with MRC's 1300 & 1370 Power Packs, which have used the same tried and true technology for the last 25 years with UL Certification.
Could that be an issue with your Rapido's? Trying to be helpful....
Here is a way to do constant lighting on DC locos without putting anything in the motor circuit that would affect the speed.
http://www.pollensoftware.com/railroad/index.html
LastspikemikeIt actually is quite sensible to suggest that people who claim to prefer DC to desist from buying locomotives equipped with DCC and sound
Well, I guess we'll just have to agreee to disagree; however, since most lcocomotives are easy to convert from DCC to DC and it's well within the ability of most modelers, I think it makes more since to help them use the locos they want instead of telling them to just not get them.
LastspikemikeIt actually is quite sensible to suggest that people who claim to prefer DC to desist from buying locomotives equipped with DCC and sound.
I believe that you may have accidently spelled "stupid" as "sensible"...as it conflicts with your assertion here:
LastspikemikeDC only versions of "some locomotives" are not available because the market isn't there.
If we DC Luddites are interested in a particular locomotive that's DCC-equipped, and have the wherewithal to purchase it, it's easy enough to convert it to DC operation.
The market for DC is obviously there, but that for DCC is larger, or this conversation wouldn't even be taking place.
The fact that some DCC locos now cost as much, or more than some brass locomotives has resulted in a drop in the price of some brass...a friend and I both bought a number of brass locomotives for very reasonable prices, possibly because more people want r-t-r DCC, than brass that needs to be painted or perhaps requires mechanical work.
I get that...one size does not fit all, and I would have thought that even die-hard DCC-ers would realise that some of us just prefer simplicity over complexity.
I am, however, surprised by the narrow-mindedness of some DCC-ers.
doctorwayneI am, however, surprised by the narrow-mindedness of some DCC-ers.
It is only some, rare even, but they are very easy to spot.
Most of the DCC users are actually model railroaders and enjoy sharing the hobby. Others just try to sound smarter than us DC luddites and enjoy expressing superiority.
Anyway, another thread has been ruined by the same set of circumstances.
There was no respect for the OP.
MikeyChris, sorry this went so badly. This is a subject I would love to dicuss.
Unfortunately, this is predicatable.
Dcc is the best! Why would anyone use DC? *grumble grumble grumble...*
Kidding kidding. Do what you like. That is the best part of the hobby. Like a certain roadname? Model it! Don't like a certain roadname? Make your own road! Like sound and lights? Use DCC! Like the simplicity/inexpense/whatever else of DC? Use DC! Want a city scene? Model it! Like rural? Model That! I model GN with dcc in mostly rural areas. I've been to layouts that model GN with DC in city areas. It is the variety of the hobby that makes it appeal to people. In MY OPINION, and only my opinion, dcc is the way of the future, but, a great argument can be make for tried and true as well.
Summary? Do what you love, like or want and don't get ticked when others do the same thing.
As far as converting locos go, I would buy some 8 pin harnesses and wire them into your locomotives. Then just pop in your dummy plugs and all should work. As long as you wired the harness correctly, all lighting should work correctly. Hope this helps!
JJF
Prototypically modeling the Great Northern in Minnesota with just a hint of freelancing.
Yesterday is History.
Tomorrow is a Mystery.
But today is a Gift, that is why it is called the Present.
LastspikemikeLogic is certainly scarce around here.
I wonder why.
LastspikemikeThe logical solution is to buy a relatively cheap and basic DCC system to run the DCC equipment you feel you want to have.
I think you typed "logical" when you meant to type "silly". It is not logical for me, Sheldon, or the OP to switch to DCC for our own personal reasons that ARE logical. (Sorry to speak for others, Sheldon and the OP are welcome to issue corrections)
LastspikemikeIt's not that simple to convert a DCC dual mode locomotive back to DC. My point is you shouldn't want to.
It is not your place to tell the OP what he wants or what he does not. In the original post he said that he did not want anyone questioning why he uses DC because he has reasons for this.
It is ridiculously elitist and not-logical for you to think you know better than another experienced modeler with his own sets of wants and desires.
The "All Knowing Mike" obviously has some massive limitations.
LastspikemikeBrass prices for used equipment are dropping because fewer people want to buy it.
This statement is inaccurate.
Not all brass prices are dropping, many pieces are steadily increasing in value.
Many of us could explain the complexities of the brass marketplace, and why certain items go up, and others go down.
However, you don't want to comprehend what others share, only want to argue, and uselessly post in threads where you have no knowledge. I do not feel like banging my head against the "Spike Wall" any longer on this subject.
Please let the people who want to discuss converting DCC locomotives to DC post in this thread as the OP intended. Pointing out how the OP's desire for help does not align with "Spike Mike Style Logic" is pointless and not wanted.
If you really want to discuss brass prices, please open another thread, and then listen to the knowledgeable base in this group as they educate you on the subject. This thread was for something much more interesting. Brass prices have previously been discussed to death.
Your continuous destruction of informative threads where you do not understand the subject matter has become tiresome and repetitively boring.
LastspikemikeIf really there were a market for the DC only locomotives being discussed here then it would have been supplied.
Whether or not there is a market for DC only locomotives is not relevant to this thread.
If you have a multi-cab layout and want to be able to run your locos from any cab, then no, that is not the "logical solution."
LastspikemikeUnless you can fit a dummy plug it's not that simple to convert a DCC dual mode locomotive back to DC.
Actually, yes it is. It has already been answered (in the very first response to the original post), but it's as simple as "clip the two motor leads and solder them to the right (+ for forward) rail pickup and left pickup." Cut two wires, solder two joints, your done. In the vast majority of cases, you can leave the decoder in place and have it continue to operate the sound and lights and it will be just fine. If you do have any issues with lighting, it's pretty simple to wire up directional lighting.
CSX RobertIn the vast majority of cases, you can leave the decoder in place and have it continue to operate the sound and lights and it will be just fine.
The whole idea of sound as externally controlled, e.g. using a Quantum Engineer or similar device, pretty well crashed and burned a couple of decades ago: for not much more you could go 'full digital' with constant track voltage and wildly more options. I'm all in favor of retaining all the DCC functionality save DC motor control in some transmissible datastream... but it is very complex to arrange it on what is, in the typical DC world, basically both a variable-strength and separately-modulated carrier.
And yes, you'd want a keep-alive, perhaps a very generous one, to keep the decoder and its other associated stuff up and running regardless of what track voltage and polarity are doing...
OvermodAssuming you have a way to modulate control signals onto variable DC in a way a DCC decoder will recognize.
There would be no need to do that. Most decoders are designed to run on DC. If it has sound, then it's not going be sychronised witht the motion very well, in fact, there's a good chance the loco will start moving before the sound even starts. If you're a "roundy-round" user (you tend to start a train and just let it run around the layout) that may not be an issue, but if you tend to do much switching, I imagine that would get pretty annoying pretty fast. If you don't like the sound, remove the decoder or just clip the spoeaker leads.
Just a question...are there really that many HO locomotive models that are only sold as DCC/Sound engines, without a "DCC Ready" DC version also being available? Most engines I've seen are available both ways. Yes, maybe the LHS only has the sound version of an engine you want available, or the only version of a now-discontinued engine you've been able to track down is the sound/DCC version etc. but it seems to me most / all engines are made in both versions(?)
wjstixJust a question...are there really that many HO locomotive models that are only sold as DCC/Sound engines, without a "DCC Ready" DC version also being available?
I don't kow about HO scale. In N scale sure, most locomotives are available as DCC ready, but not all. If there's one or more that you want that is only available in DCC and sound, then it's not much consolation that most are available without.
I think that running a DCC dual mode decoder with an MRC power pack might run into the power pack delivering a pulse whith modulation voltage. Do not know if that is the case or not, has I have not used an MRC power pack for years. At one point in time with DC, plus whith modulation was a way to make a DC motor start at a lower voltage. With DCC the decoders see the pulse whith modulation has a signal and responds to that- just an thought.