Bayfield Transfer Railway The 1986 GCOR is the last one that has TT&TO, and it has warrants and DTC. No class flags/lights needed for extra. the reason I know is that it's the rulebook the Bayfield Transfer Railway uses. BTR is TT& TO, the BN into Ashland uses warrants, and the C&NW into Ashland uses DTC. heh heh heh...
The 1986 GCOR is the last one that has TT&TO, and it has warrants and DTC. No class flags/lights needed for extra.
the reason I know is that it's the rulebook the Bayfield Transfer Railway uses. BTR is TT& TO, the BN into Ashland uses warrants, and the C&NW into Ashland uses DTC.
heh heh heh...
My copy of the first GCOR effective April 28 1985 doesn't have DTC rules. It also doesn't have the classification light/flag requirement for extras. It shows only being adopted by Union Pacific, Missouri Pacific and Missouri-Kansas-Texas railroads.
The second GCOR from 1989 does have DTC and the page showing adopted by includes many more companies.
The first and second GCORs used the traditional rule numbering system. The third edition from 1994 changed the numbering system that's still used today.
Jeff
Disclaimer: This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.
Michael Mornard
Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!
SeeYou190But by dictionary definition, all flangers are actually plows, they are just parts of a specialized subset.
Cool. If you just have to be right, fine, a flanger is a type of plow according to Webster.
I will just say that on a real railroad, if when we called out the plows we called out one piece of equipment and when we called out the flangers we called out a different piece of equipment. While Webster may think they are the same, real railroads seem to think they are different pieces of equipment, with different jobs and used at different times.
I hope this helps.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
dehusmanA plow moves snow above the top of the rail and flanger, by definition, moves snow from the flangeways, below the top of rail. Not all plows have flanging blades and not all flangers have plows. Most flanging blades are mounted behind the lead truck.
But by dictionary definition, all flangers are actually plows, they are just parts of a specialized subset.
Think of it this way... All squares are parallelograms, but not all parallelograms are squares. It is the same relationship between plows and flangers.
I hope this helped.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
SeeYou190It seems the definition of as plow is just a tool that moves material by pushing it out of the way.
A plow moves snow above the top of the rail and flanger, by definition, moves snow from the flangeways, below the top of rail. Not all plows have flanging blades and not all flangers have plows. Most flanging blades are mounted behind the lead truck.
Here is an SP flanger :
And the narrow guage version:
A CN one made from a boxcar, a neat kitbash opportunity:
A bi-directional one made from a tender:
NittanyLion SPSOT fan One example I can think of Ask MR getting something wrong (actually I'd say incomplete) was a few years ago when they talked about slide fences and said they where there to stop rocks, when actually they simply trip an electrical circuit when a rock breaks a fence to allert oncoming trains of rocks on the track. This was one of the questions at the start of the collum that are in more detail and bolder too! There are fences that are designed to keep rocks from getting on the tracks. They have more closely spaced columns and are anchored by wires to the rockface.
SPSOT fan One example I can think of Ask MR getting something wrong (actually I'd say incomplete) was a few years ago when they talked about slide fences and said they where there to stop rocks, when actually they simply trip an electrical circuit when a rock breaks a fence to allert oncoming trains of rocks on the track. This was one of the questions at the start of the collum that are in more detail and bolder too!
One example I can think of Ask MR getting something wrong (actually I'd say incomplete) was a few years ago when they talked about slide fences and said they where there to stop rocks, when actually they simply trip an electrical circuit when a rock breaks a fence to allert oncoming trains of rocks on the track. This was one of the questions at the start of the collum that are in more detail and bolder too!
There are fences that are designed to keep rocks from getting on the tracks. They have more closely spaced columns and are anchored by wires to the rockface.
Well I suppose they could have been thinking of that, but the image they showed with it was of a model of a type I mentioned! I know this because the picture was from a friends layout, and he was the one who told be about that inaccuracy.
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
It seems the definition of as plow is just a tool that moves material by pushing it out of the way.
So I guess all Flangers are Plows, but not all Plows are Flangers.
Now it is finally clear. I guess that answer was correct once you look up the definition.
The flanger sign that comes with that set, I've had that set in both HO and now N myself, may not be correct for all railroads. Some used a style like that listed in the link below.
https://www.alaskarails.org/terminology/signs/track-signs.html
The sign also signals the operator of Jordan Spreader type equipment to raise the wing blade. I remember one time taking a train through an area where they had used the wings to clean out some ditches. Lots of whistle, mile and quarter and half mile signs were knocked over.
PS about the GCOR no longer using "extra". Some of the old head track foreman clearing up trains through Form B (work areas) will still call a train extra. Those old heads that worked under the old Consolidated or Uniform Codes are getting less and less.
cv_acrSome plows did in fact have a moveable bottom part on the blade that could drop between the rails. Most Canadian plows did.
Those parts are called "flangers", hence why the signal is a "flanger signal". The plow is fixed. The flanger blades can be raised and lowered.
I am glad the real experts were able to explain this in a clear, concise, easy to understand way that is correct 100% of the time for all points of view.
Thanks guys.
jeffhergertI think the first GCOR edition, the only GCOR edition that had TT &TO rules, did not have a provision to run sections of a schedule. The class signal rule didn't have a provision to display green signals.
Now that you mention it, I belive you are correct. The TT&TO rules were phased out and TWC was phased in over a period of time, so the initial GCOR books had both TT&TO and TWC in them to cover both types of operation during the cutover. Subsequent versions dropped the TT&TO rules entirely once the cutover was done.
zugmannWhen we get form Ds, Rule 241s, permissions to reverse, etc, (NORAC), we are still referred to as "Extra (engine number)". But we're also running on a line with scheduled passenger trains.
In NORAC there are basically two trains, a scheduled train ("A train designated by Timetable Schedule.") and an Extra train ("A train not designated by Timetable Schedule.")
I don't know if there is anything different between extra and scheduled trains, other than how they addressed. Most of the exceptions regard "passenger trains". I also haven't found a restriction on a train leaving ahead of its schedule time, other than the restriction that passenger trains can't leave ahead of their scheduled times.
dehusman Sorta kinda, not quite for the GCOR roads (General Code of Operating Rules), since 1985, the whole concept of "superiority of trains" (which is the underlying foundation of regular, sections and extras) went away and regular, sections and extras just ceased to exist. Along with all that went classification signals. That's when railroads started plating over class lights on engines. On the GCOR roads, trains aren't run as "extras" they are just trains. They aren't "Extra UP 3985 West", they are just "UP 3985 West". Railroads still have the concept of "regular", "extra" and "sections", but they refer to service schedules which don't have any authority or superiority attached to them and as far as the dispatcher is concerned they are all just identified as trains.
Sorta kinda, not quite for the GCOR roads (General Code of Operating Rules), since 1985, the whole concept of "superiority of trains" (which is the underlying foundation of regular, sections and extras) went away and regular, sections and extras just ceased to exist. Along with all that went classification signals. That's when railroads started plating over class lights on engines.
On the GCOR roads, trains aren't run as "extras" they are just trains. They aren't "Extra UP 3985 West", they are just "UP 3985 West".
Railroads still have the concept of "regular", "extra" and "sections", but they refer to service schedules which don't have any authority or superiority attached to them and as far as the dispatcher is concerned they are all just identified as trains.
On Canadian railways the similar change happened in the early 1990s with the CROR rules.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
dehusman I think the first GCOR edition, the only GCOR edition that had TT &TO rules, did not have a provision to run sections of a schedule. The class signal rule didn't have a provision to display green signals. Jeff zugmann Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong. Ok, simple swap around. A train not displaying signals is a regular train that is in the timetable.
I think the first GCOR edition, the only GCOR edition that had TT &TO rules, did not have a provision to run sections of a schedule. The class signal rule didn't have a provision to display green signals.
zugmann Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong.
Ok, simple swap around. A train not displaying signals is a regular train that is in the timetable.
dehusmanRailroads still have the concept of "regular", "extra" and "sections", but they refer to service schedules which don't have any authority or superiority attached to them and as far as the dispatcher is concerned they are all just identified as trains.
When we get form Ds, Rule 241s, permissions to reverse, etc, (NORAC), we are still referred to as "Extra (engine number)". But we're also running on a line with scheduled passenger trains.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
BRAKIEThen all trains was ran as extras and no flags was needed.
dehusman zugmann Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong. Ok, simple swap around. A train not displaying signals is a regular train that is in the timetable.
Back in the day a extra displayed a white flag.. Then all trains was ran as extras and no flags was needed.
I understand that still applies to today's freight trains.
Maybe Big Jim can enlighten us.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
zugmannVery few things about RR rules and ops are simple enough for a 10-word answer. Nature of the beast.
Indeed.. I call it "All things railroad".. A old line PRR conductor once told me its easy to break a rule since there are so many and you can't remember all of them.
dehusmanAdding in a discussion about green signals would move the answer in to the "how to build a watch" area and I intentionally avoided that. I actually had something about green signals in the answer but removed it because it muddied up the waters on the actual question.
If the question was just about white flags. But once you added the following:
dehusmanA regular train that is in the timetable will have no classification signals displayed.
Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong.
Very few things about RR rules and ops are simple enough for a 10-word answer. Nature of the beast.
NittanyLionThere are fences that are designed to keep rocks from getting on the tracks. They have more closely spaced columns and are anchored by wires to the rockface.
There are. They are designed to mostly keep loose rock from spalling of the face of the cliff. They are typically not interlocked with the signal system and don't stop a larger "rock slide" or alert the railroad that a slide has happened.
zugmannWhat about green flags/lights?
Since the object was to make a simple response and the question was about white signals, the answer was about white signals.
Adding in a discussion about green signals would move the answer in to the "how to build a watch" area and I intentionally avoided that. I actually had something about green signals in the answer but removed it because it muddied up the waters on the actual question.
What about green flags/lights?
One thing with railroads- there are no absolutes. Just when you think you found a standard, some railroad will have their own way.
I'm pretty sure it does. Quite a long while ago (Andy Sperandeo was the editor), they published a DCC comparison article and had some information wrong. I posted about it here, and got a PM from Andy wanting to know if they could publish it as a letter to the editor.
So I say the answer is yes, they do pay attention to what is said in reference to published information.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
i wonder how much impact the forum has on magazine content? If it did, would it increase magazine subscriptions?
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
dehusman richhotrain Do you plan to contact the editor of MR magazine about this? The title references a column in MR, and it's been the leading topic in the Prototype Forum for over 24 hours. I think they are notified.
richhotrain Do you plan to contact the editor of MR magazine about this?
The title references a column in MR, and it's been the leading topic in the Prototype Forum for over 24 hours.
I think they are notified.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrainDo you plan to contact the editor of MR magazine about this?
SeeYou190I would think most people that ask a question just want to know what time it is and really don't care how to build a clock.
Great. Then they should give a correct answer that is simple.
Q: I have a Bachmann sign set that has a sign that is a triangle with a black border. Where would I use this?
A: That is a flanger sign. A flanger is a a piece of snow fighting equipment that digs ice and snow out of the flangeways of the track. It has to be raised at switches, crossing diamonds and road crossings. If you are modeling an area that gets a lot of snow, it should be placed in advance of a road crossing, crossing diamond or switch to warn the flanger crews to raise the blade.
Clear, concise and factually correct.
Q: I don't understand the purpose of the white flags on locomotives pulling special trains?
A: White flag are classification signals, they can also be a white light. White signals indicate that the the train is an "extra" that is a train not listed in the time table. An extra is created by train orders instead of a timetable schedule. A special train would be one that doesn't normally run, so it would not be a "regular' or time table train. Therefore the railroad has to run it as an "extra" train. By displaying the white signals, it lets any other train or railroad employee that sees the train know it is an extra train and will know to refer to their train orders on how to proceed. A regular train that is in the timetable will have no classification signals displayed.