Ask MR was particularly sketchy in the May issue.
In the question about the lineside signs, ASK MR said they were signs to tell the crews when to "raise the blade of the plow". Railroad plow blades don't raise because they are above the top of the rail. What the signs are really for is for flangers, they are pieces of equipment that dig the snow and ice out of the flangeways, below the top of the rail. They do have to be raised prior to switches and crossings.
On the white flags question, they never actually mentioned the actual name of the flags, classification signals. A minor quibble about who sees them. Station agents are the business managers for the railroad, many of them at smaller stations were train order operators, but many of them at medium or larger stations didn't really have anything to do with the movement of trains per se. What MR really meant to say instead of station agents was "train order operators", they are actually the craft that keeps track of trains and their movement. Dispatchers also rarely see trains, they are at one location and may not even be near the tracks, even back in the 1800's. Train crews, both opposing and in the same direction and MoW forces are the ones looking for the flags.
TT&TO operation doesn't require everybody to know where every train is on the system. All they need to know is the schedule and extras need to know where they are going to meet opposing extras or what rights they have over other trains. They might not have a clue where the train actually is and aren't required to track other trains. Also considering a railroad might have hundreds of trains on a system, train orders generally only deal with one subdivision.
Extras do NOT have "schedules" created by train orders. Extras do NOT have schedules. That is kinda the definition of an extra. Schedules grant trains specific superiority, called "class" and "direction". Extras NEVER have any superiority by class or direction. Basic, fundamental, foundational principle of TT&TO operation. The dispatcher issuses the train orders and they are written down and delivered by train order operators, who may or may not be agents. The two places I worked with agents, they had no interaction with the train orders, it was done by the train order operator.
Train orders are not issued to every opposing train they are going to meet. No train orders are required for scheduled regular trains, the times in timetable sets the meets. The only time a regular train will have an order about an extra is if the extra has been given right over it. Every extra has to have something on every opposing extra. Not every extra has a specific meet location with opposing extras.
No cigars for May's Ask MR column.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Interesting observations, Dave.
While I no longer receive the model magazines - MR, RMC, Mainline Modeler (and Trains) that I did at one time, they usually offered some good insight into real railroads for those of us who knew little about how things really worked in the full-size world of railroading.
Some years ago, I did a mostly-photo thread, with some narrative, on an Extra being detoured due to a derailment on its usual line, with rights over all regularly-scheduled trains on a line that wasn't usually all that busy.I'm glad to see that I wasn't in error by giving it rights to the needed track, although I did forget to add the white flags to the lead loco.
I called the thread "Hurry up and wait..."
Wayne
dehusmanThe dispatcher issuses the train orders and they are written down and delivered by train order operators, who may or may not be agents. The two places I worked with agents, they had no interaction with the train orders, it was done by the train order operator.
Tower operatrs could and some times would hand you Form 19 giving you new intructions.
July 15, 1967
TO: C&E
Extra 7112 W at Mounds
Do not exceed 10 (one aught) mph on main two (2) between MP 344.0 and MP 345.0 account bad rail.
JEH.
Mounds.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
BRAKIETower operatrs could and some times would hand you Form 19 giving you new intructions.
Quite correct, the operative word being "operators". I think part of the confusion is model railroaders tend to lump all the clerical crafts together (much like they lump the whole train crew together) and don't really understand what the different crafts actually do.
Dave Husman
dehusman BRAKIE Tower operatrs could and some times would hand you Form 19 giving you new intructions. Quite correct, the operative word being "operators". I think part of the confusion is model railroaders tend to lump all the clerical crafts together (much like they lump the whole train crew together) and don't really understand what the different crafts actually do. Dave Husman
BRAKIE Tower operatrs could and some times would hand you Form 19 giving you new intructions.
I agree. I heard the fireman's seat in a F-7 called the conductor's seat. The conductor rode in the caboose with the flagman or rear brakeman.
If a local was more then 30 cars then a extra brakeman would be added to help do the work and that would make a six man crew instead of the normal five. This was on the PRR. On the Chessie we used a four man crew. Engineer,two brakeman and the conductor or foreman as he was called on some roads. The head brakeman rode in the fireman's seat and would repeat the signals when the engineer called them out.
dehusman In the question about the lineside signs, ASK MR said they were signs to tell the crews when to "raise the blade of the plow". Railroad plow blades don't raise because they are above the top of the rail. What the signs are really for is for flangers, they are pieces of equipment that dig the snow and ice out of the flangeways, below the top of the rail. They do have to be raised prior to switches and crossings.
Some plows did in fact have a moveable bottom part on the blade that could drop between the rails. Most Canadian plows did.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
dehusman Quite correct, the operative word being "operators". I think part of the confusion is model railroaders tend to lump all the clerical crafts together (much like they lump the whole train crew together) and don't really understand what the different crafts actually do.
Plus, in some rural locations there really was only one person fulfilling the role of agent/operator.
dehusmanIn the question about the lineside signs, ASK MR said they were signs to tell the crews when to "raise the blade of the plow". Railroad plow blades don't raise because they are above the top of the rail.
Perhaps the plows mounted to locomotives, but the some of the big plows pushed by several locomotives did have pieces that could be raised an lowered.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
Interesting insights!
I do notice that the ask MR colunm periodically leaves somethings to be desired with regards to lack of information, but the authors are only human and we should expect periodic mistakes!
I kind of don't understand the precticality of writing a letter to Ask MR these days when you could simple post a question on these forums and get a quicker response with a wider bredth of infomation. I also think friends in the hobby could also offer more detailed advice! I've learned quite a bit about prototype railroading from prototype railroader friends who are also in the hobby.
One example I can think of Ask MR getting something wrong (actually I'd say incomplete) was a few years ago when they talked about slide fences and said they where there to stop rocks, when actually they simply trip an electrical circuit when a rock breaks a fence to allert oncoming trains of rocks on the track. This was one of the questions at the start of the collum that are in more detail and bolder too!
Regards, Isaac
I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!
dehusman Ask MR was particularly sketchy in the May issue. ... No cigars for May's Ask MR column.
... No cigars for May's Ask MR column.
I have noticed that MR has been getting casual about researching the answers to Ask MR questions. I suspect the staff is spread too thin to hit the books much before penning an answer.
A fairly recent thread that I took part in also beefed about an Ask MR response.
http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/13/t/281564.aspx
Dave Nelson
dknelsonI have noticed that MR has been getting casual about researching the answers to Ask MR questions. I suspect the staff is spread too thin to hit the books much before penning an answer.
My take is they are trying to make the answers less technical to make them more "accessible" and less intimidating to those who are asking the questions.
SeeYou190they are above the top of the rail. Perhaps the plows mounted to locomotives, but the some of the big plows pushed by several locomotives did have pieces that could be raised an lowered. -Kevin
There is a difference between nitpicking a detail and being flat out wrong.
On several of the points I mentioned they were flat out wrong.
one of the best answers in the world is "I don't know"; saves a lot of time
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
dehusmanMy take is they are trying to make the answers less technical to make them more "accessible" and less intimidating to those who are asking the questions.
I would think most people that ask a question just want to know what time it is and really don't care how to build a clock.
dehusman Ask MR was particularly sketchy in the May issue.
Rich
Alton Junction
SeeYou190I would think most people that ask a question just want to know what time it is and really don't care how to build a clock.
Great. Then they should give a correct answer that is simple.
Q: I have a Bachmann sign set that has a sign that is a triangle with a black border. Where would I use this?
A: That is a flanger sign. A flanger is a a piece of snow fighting equipment that digs ice and snow out of the flangeways of the track. It has to be raised at switches, crossing diamonds and road crossings. If you are modeling an area that gets a lot of snow, it should be placed in advance of a road crossing, crossing diamond or switch to warn the flanger crews to raise the blade.
Clear, concise and factually correct.
Q: I don't understand the purpose of the white flags on locomotives pulling special trains?
A: White flag are classification signals, they can also be a white light. White signals indicate that the the train is an "extra" that is a train not listed in the time table. An extra is created by train orders instead of a timetable schedule. A special train would be one that doesn't normally run, so it would not be a "regular' or time table train. Therefore the railroad has to run it as an "extra" train. By displaying the white signals, it lets any other train or railroad employee that sees the train know it is an extra train and will know to refer to their train orders on how to proceed. A regular train that is in the timetable will have no classification signals displayed.
richhotrainDo you plan to contact the editor of MR magazine about this?
The title references a column in MR, and it's been the leading topic in the Prototype Forum for over 24 hours.
I think they are notified.
dehusman richhotrain Do you plan to contact the editor of MR magazine about this? The title references a column in MR, and it's been the leading topic in the Prototype Forum for over 24 hours. I think they are notified.
richhotrain Do you plan to contact the editor of MR magazine about this?
i wonder how much impact the forum has on magazine content? If it did, would it increase magazine subscriptions?
I'm pretty sure it does. Quite a long while ago (Andy Sperandeo was the editor), they published a DCC comparison article and had some information wrong. I posted about it here, and got a PM from Andy wanting to know if they could publish it as a letter to the editor.
So I say the answer is yes, they do pay attention to what is said in reference to published information.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
dehusmanA regular train that is in the timetable will have no classification signals displayed.
What about green flags/lights?
One thing with railroads- there are no absolutes. Just when you think you found a standard, some railroad will have their own way.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannWhat about green flags/lights?
Since the object was to make a simple response and the question was about white signals, the answer was about white signals.
Adding in a discussion about green signals would move the answer in to the "how to build a watch" area and I intentionally avoided that. I actually had something about green signals in the answer but removed it because it muddied up the waters on the actual question.
SPSOT fan One example I can think of Ask MR getting something wrong (actually I'd say incomplete) was a few years ago when they talked about slide fences and said they where there to stop rocks, when actually they simply trip an electrical circuit when a rock breaks a fence to allert oncoming trains of rocks on the track. This was one of the questions at the start of the collum that are in more detail and bolder too!
There are fences that are designed to keep rocks from getting on the tracks. They have more closely spaced columns and are anchored by wires to the rockface.
NittanyLionThere are fences that are designed to keep rocks from getting on the tracks. They have more closely spaced columns and are anchored by wires to the rockface.
There are. They are designed to mostly keep loose rock from spalling of the face of the cliff. They are typically not interlocked with the signal system and don't stop a larger "rock slide" or alert the railroad that a slide has happened.
dehusmanAdding in a discussion about green signals would move the answer in to the "how to build a watch" area and I intentionally avoided that. I actually had something about green signals in the answer but removed it because it muddied up the waters on the actual question.
If the question was just about white flags. But once you added the following:
Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong.
Very few things about RR rules and ops are simple enough for a 10-word answer. Nature of the beast.
zugmannVery few things about RR rules and ops are simple enough for a 10-word answer. Nature of the beast.
Indeed.. I call it "All things railroad".. A old line PRR conductor once told me its easy to break a rule since there are so many and you can't remember all of them.
zugmann Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong.
Ok, simple swap around. A train not displaying signals is a regular train that is in the timetable.
dehusman zugmann Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong. Ok, simple swap around. A train not displaying signals is a regular train that is in the timetable.
Back in the day a extra displayed a white flag.. Then all trains was ran as extras and no flags was needed.
I understand that still applies to today's freight trains.
Maybe Big Jim can enlighten us.
BRAKIEThen all trains was ran as extras and no flags was needed.
Sorta kinda, not quite for the GCOR roads (General Code of Operating Rules), since 1985, the whole concept of "superiority of trains" (which is the underlying foundation of regular, sections and extras) went away and regular, sections and extras just ceased to exist. Along with all that went classification signals. That's when railroads started plating over class lights on engines.
On the GCOR roads, trains aren't run as "extras" they are just trains. They aren't "Extra UP 3985 West", they are just "UP 3985 West".
Railroads still have the concept of "regular", "extra" and "sections", but they refer to service schedules which don't have any authority or superiority attached to them and as far as the dispatcher is concerned they are all just identified as trains.
dehusmanRailroads still have the concept of "regular", "extra" and "sections", but they refer to service schedules which don't have any authority or superiority attached to them and as far as the dispatcher is concerned they are all just identified as trains.
When we get form Ds, Rule 241s, permissions to reverse, etc, (NORAC), we are still referred to as "Extra (engine number)". But we're also running on a line with scheduled passenger trains.