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Ask MR? Maybe not.

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, April 17, 2020 10:39 AM

dehusman

I think the first GCOR edition, the only GCOR edition that had TT &TO rules, did not have a provision to run sections of a schedule.  The class signal rule didn't have a provision to display green signals.

Jeff    

 

 
zugmann
Now it's not factually correct. It may be simple and even concise, but is now wrong.

 

Ok, simple swap around.  A train not displaying signals is a regular train that is in the timetable.

 

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Posted by cv_acr on Friday, April 17, 2020 10:57 AM

dehusman

Sorta kinda, not quite for the GCOR roads (General Code of Operating Rules), since 1985, the whole concept of "superiority of trains" (which is the underlying foundation of regular, sections and extras) went away and regular, sections and extras just ceased to exist.  Along with all that went classification signals.  That's when railroads started plating over class lights on engines.

On the GCOR roads, trains aren't run as "extras" they are just trains.  They aren't "Extra UP 3985 West", they are just "UP 3985 West".

Railroads still have the concept of "regular", "extra" and "sections", but they refer to service schedules which don't have any authority or superiority attached to them and as far as the dispatcher is concerned they are all just identified as trains.

On Canadian railways the similar change happened in the early 1990s with the CROR rules.

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Posted by dehusman on Friday, April 17, 2020 10:57 AM

zugmann
When we get form Ds, Rule 241s, permissions to reverse, etc, (NORAC), we are still referred to as "Extra (engine number)". But we're also running on a line with scheduled passenger trains.

In NORAC there are basically two trains, a scheduled train ("A train designated by Timetable Schedule.") and an Extra train ("A train not designated by Timetable Schedule.") 

I don't know if there is anything different between extra and scheduled trains, other than how they addressed.  Most of the exceptions regard "passenger trains".  I also haven't found a restriction on a train leaving ahead of its schedule time, other than the restriction that passenger trains can't leave ahead of their scheduled times.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by dehusman on Friday, April 17, 2020 11:04 AM

jeffhergert
I think the first GCOR edition, the only GCOR edition that had TT &TO rules, did not have a provision to run sections of a schedule. The class signal rule didn't have a provision to display green signals.

Now that you mention it, I belive you are correct.  The TT&TO rules were phased out and TWC was phased in over a period of time, so the initial GCOR books had both TT&TO and TWC in them to cover both types of operation during the cutover.  Subsequent versions dropped the TT&TO rules entirely once the cutover was done.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Friday, April 17, 2020 2:10 PM

I am glad the real experts were able to explain this in a clear, concise, easy to understand way that is correct 100% of the time for all points of view.

Thanks guys. 

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by dehusman on Friday, April 17, 2020 8:37 PM

cv_acr
Some plows did in fact have a moveable bottom part on the blade that could drop between the rails. Most Canadian plows did.

Those parts are called "flangers", hence why the signal is a "flanger signal".  The plow is fixed.  The flanger blades can be raised and lowered.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by jeffhergert on Friday, April 17, 2020 11:46 PM

The flanger sign that comes with that set, I've had that set in both HO and now N myself, may not be correct for all railroads.  Some used a style like that listed in the link below.

https://www.alaskarails.org/terminology/signs/track-signs.html 

The sign also signals the operator of Jordan Spreader type equipment to raise the wing blade.  I remember one time taking a train through an area where they had used the wings to clean out some ditches.  Lots of whistle, mile and quarter and half mile signs were knocked over.

Jeff

PS about the GCOR no longer using "extra".  Some of the old head track foreman clearing up trains through Form B (work areas) will still call a train extra.  Those old heads that worked under the old Consolidated or Uniform Codes are getting less and less. 

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, April 18, 2020 12:42 AM

It seems the definition of as plow is just a tool that moves material by pushing it out of the way.

So I guess all Flangers are Plows, but not all Plows are Flangers.

Now it is finally clear. I guess that answer was correct once you look up the definition.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by SPSOT fan on Saturday, April 18, 2020 2:02 AM

NittanyLion

 

 
SPSOT fan

One example I can think of Ask MR getting something wrong (actually I'd say incomplete) was a few years ago when they talked about slide fences and said they where there to stop rocks, when actually they simply trip an electrical circuit when a rock breaks a fence to allert oncoming trains of rocks on the track. This was one of the questions at the start of the collum that are in more detail and bolder too!

 

 

 

There are fences that are designed to keep rocks from getting on the tracks.  They have more closely spaced columns and are anchored by wires to the rockface.

 

Well I suppose they could have been thinking of that, but the image they showed with it was of a model of a type I mentioned! I know this because the picture was from a friends layout, and he was the one who told be about that inaccuracy.

Regards, Isaac

I model my railroad and you model yours! I model my way and you model yours!

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Posted by dehusman on Saturday, April 18, 2020 7:32 AM

SeeYou190
It seems the definition of as plow is just a tool that moves material by pushing it out of the way.

A plow moves snow above the top of the rail and flanger, by definition, moves snow from the flangeways, below the top of rail.  Not all plows have flanging blades and not all flangers have plows.  Most flanging blades are mounted behind the lead truck.

Here is an SP flanger :

And the narrow guage version:

A CN one made from a boxcar, a neat kitbash opportunity:

A bi-directional one made from a tender:

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by SeeYou190 on Saturday, April 18, 2020 10:11 AM

dehusman
A plow moves snow above the top of the rail and flanger, by definition, moves snow from the flangeways, below the top of rail. Not all plows have flanging blades and not all flangers have plows. Most flanging blades are mounted behind the lead truck.

But by dictionary definition, all flangers are actually plows, they are just parts of a specialized subset.

Think of it this way... All squares are parallelograms, but not all parallelograms are squares. It is the same relationship between plows and flangers.

I hope this helped.

-Kevin

Wink Happily modeling my STRATTON & GILLETTE RAILROAD. A Class A line located in a personal fantasy world of semi-plausible nonsense on Tuesday, August 3rd, 1954.

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Posted by dehusman on Saturday, April 18, 2020 10:36 AM

SeeYou190
But by dictionary definition, all flangers are actually plows, they are just parts of a specialized subset.

Cool.  If you just have to be right, fine, a flanger is a type of plow according to Webster.  

I will just say that on a real railroad, if when we called out the plows we called out one piece of equipment and when we called out the flangers we called out a different piece of equipment.  While Webster may think they are the same, real railroads seem to think they are different pieces of equipment, with different jobs and used at different times.

I hope this helps.

Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com

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Posted by Bayfield Transfer Railway on Saturday, April 18, 2020 12:37 PM

The 1986 GCOR is the last one that has TT&TO, and it has warrants and DTC.  No class flags/lights needed for extra.

 

the reason I know is that it's the rulebook the Bayfield Transfer Railway uses.  BTR is TT& TO, the BN into Ashland uses warrants, and the C&NW into Ashland uses DTC.

 

heh heh heh...

 

Disclaimer:  This post may contain humor, sarcasm, and/or flatulence.

Michael Mornard

Bringing the North Woods to South Dakota!

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Posted by jeffhergert on Monday, April 20, 2020 9:02 PM

Bayfield Transfer Railway

The 1986 GCOR is the last one that has TT&TO, and it has warrants and DTC.  No class flags/lights needed for extra.

 

the reason I know is that it's the rulebook the Bayfield Transfer Railway uses.  BTR is TT& TO, the BN into Ashland uses warrants, and the C&NW into Ashland uses DTC.

 

heh heh heh...

 

 

My copy of the first GCOR effective April 28 1985 doesn't have DTC rules.  It also doesn't have the classification light/flag requirement for extras.  It shows only being adopted by Union Pacific, Missouri Pacific and Missouri-Kansas-Texas railroads.

The second GCOR from 1989 does have DTC and the page showing adopted by includes many more companies.

The first and second GCORs used the traditional rule numbering system.  The third edition from 1994 changed the numbering system that's still used today.

Jeff   

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