we've finally resumed work sessions on a layout. i started helping after a significant portion was already built, but have helped with some a non-trivial interlock software and completed wiring 3 staging loops.
but i wonder what it takes to get a layout built quickly, operational within a year?
i assume group of friends helping and consistent (weekly) work sessions. i've recently been surprised and satisfied by some coordinated effort but wonder if there can be too many people
i also wonder about planning. presumably this includes having materials available, working on the appropriate sections of the layout and presumably people with the appropriate skills.
the other thing becoming apparent is the ultimate need to have enough people to operate the layout.
i wonder what the 3 or 4 most important things are, as well as things to avoid doing
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading
gregc but i wonder what it takes to get a layout built quickly, operational within a year?
First of all, how big is this layout of yours? That will decide a lot.
1. Money. You have to be willing to buy everything you need immediately. Eliminate the waiting for XYZ to finish projects.
2. No tinkering. Make a checklist of major goals for your layout and then only work on projects pertaining to those goals. You'll have to stick to this schedule. Don't wander down rabbit holes detailing locomotives and rolling stock. That can come later.
3. Start planning before you start the timer. The planning stage will arguably take the most time. Building a layout is easy once you have a solid road map.
4. Don't plan on scratchbuilding any major structures. Scratchbuilding structures (especially large ones, or bridges) takes a long time. No board-by-board trestles. You'll have to make some sacrafices, and if you're worried about speed, don't plan on superdetailing anything.
Matt
In the Canadian Army, we have a wise saying, "Time spent on recce is seldom wasted." Recce being a diminutive for reconnaissance. Substitute 'planning and prepartion', and you have even more wisdom, but more relevant here.
Thinking it through, writing up a plan and making a scale diagramme, sourcing supplies (and keeping a live list going...), and then being prepared to run hard for at least four hours a day. This will have you running inside of three or four months, unless we're talking about a massive enterprise.
A friend of our train group decided he wanted an HO Scale train layout. It was suggested that certain guys do certain parts of his layout. I designed the framework for layout, priced out the wood (within reason) and started to build the layout. The layout is 23 feet by 23 feet with a 23 foot center section. Basically the layout is in the shape of an “E”. One level, all flat, no risers. Once we started getting the wood for framing that took me about 4-6 weeks to do, few hours a day, one or two days a week. Next was the plywood tops. We had to get the lumber yard to rip the 4’x’8’ pieces in certain sizes since we could not take the sheets in its whole down to the basement.
Once the plywood was painted, I added them to the framework. Probably a few weeks to add all sections and to secure them to the framework. Next was to build dividers between scenes on the layout. That took a few weeks as each time was 3-4 hours with him helping. Another friend helped with some of the framing to make the dividers curved and then we added Masonite to the frames.
My last job was installing the NCE system. That took me 2 days to do, again a few hours each day.
The next team went in there once a week 4 hours a day for a few months to come up with a track plan, put down the track and add the track drops. More time to add the drops to the track buss. As of this past May, his layout is running. He’s still adding ballast and adjusting some track for industries.
Total time with above work schedule; just under 18 months.
One piece of information. This gentlemen is now 81 years old, had nothing to start the railroad, other than a wallet with no spending limit. All of us guided him and he’s very happy and grateful for all of his friends to being his dream to fruition.
NO, I am NOT for hire!
Neal
As others have asked, how big of a layout? But really more importantly, how complex is the layout?
To define that question I refer you to the basic premise of my layout plan, large but not overly complex, and my recent post which suggest a comparison to a similar sized layout, with a very similar theme, that is dramaticly more complex than my planned layout.
As an experianced construction manager and tradesman, I find there is a direct connection between crew size, individual productivity, and calendar project length.
Too small of a crew, and work cannot be effectively or safely completed in a desirable and efficient time frame.
Too big a crew and productivity per man drops drasticly with only a small decrease in "calendar time" to complete when compared to optimum crew size.
Too many separate crews on different tasks creates workspace, job sequence and productivity issues similar to the "big crew" scenario, decreasing productivity per man.
As an example, the home makeover shows popular a few years ago where they built a house in a week (really 3-1/2 weeks because they worked in shifts around the clock), actually consumed 2 to 3 times the man hours that the work would normally require.
Planning is everything, only an individual working alone can truely design as he goes, and it is still inefficient.
But, no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy, so there must be a management chain for decisions on the fly. I will vote strongly against "management by committee".
I have helped several friends build basement size layouts (1500 to 2500 sq ft), with a crew of 4-8 round robin club members we have broght several such layouts from empty room to scenery and trains running in 2 years plus or minius.
And we have one important saying that appies to every project:
You can have the highest quality work.
You can have the lowest cost.
You can have the fastest practical completion time.
Pick which two of the above you want.........
Sheldon
gregci wonder what the 3 or 4 most important things are, as well as things to avoid doing
I had the Dreasm House N scale layout up and running in a year from scratch.
That was not fully scenicked, and lots of turnouts went nowhere, but all the mainline was done, and a basic layer of scenery covered 1/2 the layout.
I did almost all of it alone. Building a layout is not hard, just work on it every day.
-Kevin
Living the dream.
In February, 2018, I began the demolition of my beloved but flawed layout and started constructing a new layout with a similar footprint to the old. It measures 45' x 25' and is P-shaped.
Took me three years to complete construction of the framework, laying of track, wiring, and testing. During that time, I scratch built 13 large freight houses and a double track vertical lift bridge. I "landscaped" (mostly ground cover) and ballasted a double track mainline.
I built a 10-track downtown train station, a coach yard, a freight yard and an engine servicing facility consisting of a coaling tower, 130' turntable, 9-stall roundhouse, and two back shops. I finished in February 2021, and I have now taken the summer off.
In the Fall, I will complete the landscaping and pronounce the layout "finished".
So, it will have taken 3 1/2 years.
Rich
Alton Junction
mthobbiesNo tinkering.
The operative word(s)
Tinkering is what makes it a hobby. If I really flew at it I know I could get more done than even I think I could imagine. I am and always have been deadpan cool under pressure and easily respond to it. If I am not under pressure I move at whatever pace I feel like moving at on that day, isn't that what retirement is all about?
Life is about the journey, not the destination. If I ever thought I had finished a layout, I would probably start over.
I think if you were to really fly at it, a lot could be accomplished in short order.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Well, building a layout quickly just takes a lot of time.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less.
rrebell The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less.
Nothing wrong with that method of construction, but it assumes a lot of facts not in evidence.
Hello All,
The phrase that comes to mind is...
"Define the word 'Definition'!"
Or...
A layout is...
The scenic oval under the Christmas tree or Miniatur Wunderland?
Your question is ambiguous at best.
I put a 5/8-inch sheet of MDFB on the bed in the spare room, put down an oval of track and my "layout" was "complete"- -to my satisfaction.
I was running trains!
That was in 2014 and all I've "accomplished"...by your definition...is nothing.
Initially, I wired for DC with 16 blocks, over 20 DC controlled turnouts, and a curved 3% grade for the unloading of Tyco 34-foot operating hoppers.
No scenery, other than ballasting the "final" track in place.
Then I realized that the grade needed an easement.
Reworked the track plan, ripped up the ballasted track, modified a curved turnout, and reconfigured the siding to the grade.
Then added a yard that serves the power plant.
The famous quote is, "It's not the destination it's the journey."
If you are seeking expedience over experience- -hire a model building company.
Otherwise, enjoy the "journey".
Hope this helps.
"Uhh...I didn’t know it was 'impossible' I just made it work...sorry"
ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less. Nothing wrong with that method of construction, but it assumes a lot of facts not in evidence. Sheldon
what tasks take the most time and what can be done to minimize that time?
maybe a better question to ask is what to avoid doing?
rrebell ATLANTIC CENTRAL rrebell The fastest way to build a layout is a simple frame (I used 1x4's), top with foam caulked down, then layout the centerlines of the track, next put in any inclines, Woodland Scenics are the fastest and can be caulked in place, caulk on the cork and then caulk on the track with regular rail joiners everywhere and the after feeds are done go back and dremel the gaps needed. Of course there are more things to do but the stuff I mentioned can be done on an 11x13' layout in 40 hours or less. Nothing wrong with that method of construction, but it assumes a lot of facts not in evidence. Sheldon Don't understand but basic benchwork for a 2'x4' module including legs is less than an hour not including dry time. I mean we are talking basic boxes here and I use construction screws and any lateral movement is taken care of by the foam board top.
Don't understand but basic benchwork for a 2'x4' module including legs is less than an hour not including dry time. I mean we are talking basic boxes here and I use construction screws and any lateral movement is taken care of by the foam board top.
Your method assumes that benchwork will be shallow front to back, like you said, 2'.
It assumes minimal complex grades and/or no hidden track right below visable track.
It assumes foam is an acceptable base. Woodland Scenics inclines, I don't think so, my MAX grade is 2% and the grades flow constantly up and down like real life.
How do you mount under the table switch machines once you have track on 8" of stacked up foam? I know, you likely use manual turnouts, but not everybody does.
My new layout will have track at elevation 0" and elevation 11". I need direct access under the track for mainline switch machines. And there will be hidden track under those tracks at elevation 11.
While I understand many people like foam, and it works well in many cases, it is not an acceptable base for a layout like mine. I need benchwork to support my weight and to have direct under track access.
Most scenes on my layout will be 3' to 4' deep, many with lift outs for access. In one spot there will be a city behind the trackwork which includes a big yard, and the deepest part of that scene will be 8' deep and again the rear city scenery will lift out.
Those lift outs may get built on foam, but that is likely the only foam you will find on my layout. I will not place track on foam.
So, until you know what kind of layout, what size layout, and the requirements for access and features, suggesting a specific construction method is likely not going to be effective.
Nothing you suggested would work on my new layout. So I will build open grid benchwork with plywood on risers only where track and and flat scenery are, the rest will be hard shell scenery which allows constantly flowing ground contour and direct access from underneath.
Yes, there are few spots on my layout where a simple tabletop construction will work - a freight yard, and one or two other scenes. But my layout is set in the Appalachian Mountains, not the flat mid west, nothing is flat here where we live, even right along the west shore of the Chesapeake bay. No point in a table top, foam or plywood.
In general, I'd agree with Mr. Beasely. You need time to build a layout more quickly. With many things interupting me for months on end, it has a delitarious effect on progress. I don't have any helpers either. If I were a social butterfly like my next door HOA president neighbor ... it might be different. He could sell you almost anything.
gregc what tasks take the most time and what can be done to minimize that time? - benchwork - laying track - installing electronics - building panels - wiring maybe a better question to ask is what to avoid doing?
What makes any of those tasks take longer is lack of experience or unfamiliarity. I can build benchwork or lay track without tons of time because I've done it before. Something like scenery, which I have less experience takes longer as it takes time to learn and experiment.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
Best crew size in most cases is two people.
Crews can be paired for larger tasks like benchwork.
If planning is good, and changes can be resisted, wiring and panels can be prepared in advance busy separate teams.
It would still be helpful to have a better idea of size, scope and concept.
To begin with, I am not sure what you mean by, what to avoid doing? You certainly need to build benchwork, lay track, and install wiring. You could skip, or at least delay, installing electronics and building panels.
When you consider tasks such as building benchwork, laying track, and installing wiring, each task takes considerable time, effort and skill.
Building benchwork involves carpentry skills, not only sawing and screwing and nailing, but also leveling, plumbing, and stabilizing.
Laying track involves gemotry skills to correctly level straight sections, easement supported curves and the avoidance of humps and valleys and kinks. Both rails must match in gauge and height even where curves are superelevated. Turnouts must be embedded flawlessly into the rest of the track work.
Installing wiring involves electrician's skills and soldering skills. The wiring must be done in such a manner as to avoid voltage drops, shorts, obstacles to running wheel over track, etc. There must be adequate connectivity and continuity. The use of meters is critical.
I would suggest that each of the above tasks takes an equal amount of time and is commensurate with the size and complexity of the layout.
Installing electronics and building panels should take less time than the other three tasks. The amount of time and effort will depend upon the level of spohistication required for automation. Signaling systems will be an important part of the electronics installation task.
Another task that needs to be considering is landscaping. The enormity of this task will depend upon the nature of the landscape plan - - ground cover, mountainous or desert terrain, waterways, trees and woods and forests. I would include ballasting as an element of landscaping. In my experience, lanscaping takes just as long as building benchwork, installing trackwork and installing wiring.
Let's not forget structures. In my personal experience, this was another major task, scratch building 13 large freight houses, a vertical lift bridge, and kit building a number of other structures and bridges. Structures can take as long as building benchwork, installing trackwork, installing wiring, and landscaping.
Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'. There is always something that needs doing or updating as we learn more skills.
David
To the world you are someone. To someone you are the world
I cannot afford the luxury of a negative thought
what would a "professional" layout builder/bulders do besides working full time? i assume he/they would have the right skills for the job
there were 6 of us at the last work session
obviously a varied skill set. often you don't need to be an expert to help. let the expert do the tricky stuff
but i think working in pairs can be very productive. don't have to work together all the time, just when needed
i've been told that home construction crews will often help one another (recipricate) out when lifting (tilting) walls in place because a lot of hands are needed.
sometimes having someone under the layout and one on top can make a big difference. one at the track, another at a panel. it avoids the person crawling out and moving between locations.
of course this requires planning and coordination.
Greg. I can only assume you are referring to the club layout? Of which I know about because of our private conversations.
Why the mystery in your question? Why not explain to the others what/where you are talking about?
Personally, it bothers me when people "beat around the bush" rather than ask the question directly and provide all the facts. Somehow thinking they can control how others will think about the question?
One other thought, in the past when you and I have discussed control wiring solutions you tend to look at each problem in terms of the simplest solution for that exact situation. And many times that is fine.
But I would suggest that on a club layout where multiple people will ultimately be doing installs and trouble shooting, that my approach of developing standard systems adaptable to all situations (like turnout control) would have considerable advantage both in installation and later maintenance.
NorthBrit Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'. David
Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'.
I wonder if they got that from here across the pond? I've been reading that saying since I was a teen in Model Railroader magazine, but suspect it goes a lot farther back the the 1970's.
gregc what would a "professional" layout builder/bulders do besides working full time? i assume he/they would have the right skills for the job
But you are addressing an audience who are not are not full-time professional layout builders. Many of us have full-time jobs and home/family obligations. Some may be retired but often report they are busier than every with home/family obligations.
there were 6 of us at the last work session one person installing turnout throws one electrician installing ceiling lamps one person soldering 8 conductor cable onto switch machines two EEs testing staging tracks and debugging custom block detectors and the owner mounting switch machines under the layout obviously a varied skill set. often you don't need to be an expert to help. let the expert do the tricky stuff but i think working in pairs can be very productive. don't have to work together all the time, just when needed i've been told that home construction crews will often help one another (recipricate) out when lifting (tilting) walls in place because a lot of hands are needed. sometimes having someone under the layout and one on top can make a big difference. one at the track, another at a panel. it avoids the person crawling out and moving between locations. of course this requires planning and coordination.
What you speak of above is "in an ideal world". A few people with connections and skilled volunteer friends may be able to organize what you mention above, but you are asking us regular folks. Do you want a fair answer or one that is idealized? Yes, a layout can be built quickly ... but ...
riogrande5761What you speak of above is "in an ideal world".
common within the club here in NJ. members of the club work on one another's layouts and eventually help operate them. the club puts modelers in contact with one another.
gregc what would a "professional" layout builder/bulders do besides working full time? i assume he/they would have the right skills for the job there were 6 of us at the last work session one person installing turnout throws one electrician installing ceiling lamps one person soldering 8 conductor cable onto switch machines two EEs testing staging tracks and debugging custom block detectors and the owner mounting switch machines under the layout obviously a varied skill set. often you don't need to be an expert to help. let the expert do the tricky stuff but i think working in pairs can be very productive. don't have to work together all the time, just when needed i've been told that home construction crews will often help one another (recipricate) out when lifting (tilting) walls in place because a lot of hands are needed. sometimes having someone under the layout and one on top can make a big difference. one at the track, another at a panel. it avoids the person crawling out and moving between locations. of course this requires planning and coordination.
Yes, you have a good understanding there of the crew idea. The more the same to people work together, the faster and better they become as a team.
I have been working with the same two guys doing carpentry for 15 years, we know without hardly talking what the other is doing next, like a well oiled machine.
riogrande5761 NorthBrit Here in the U.K. we have a saying 'A layout is never finished'. David I wonder if they got that from here across the pond? I've been reading that saying since I was a teen in Model Railroader magazine, but suspect it goes a lot farther back the the 1970's.
I don't know how old the saying is or where it started, but I have heard it said all my life and read it in books of layouts built in the 1930s/40s.
Ok, switching over to ways to make whatever layout type faster, the first suggestion is soldering all conections and then cutting the gaps. That lets you gap in a more stable position instead ends of switches or relying plastic rail joiners which can shift or crush or just disintergrate (had a few of those). Second would be the ribbonrail templates and straight edges in varius lengths.
I have thought about this a bit more.
What will make the layout construction go quickly is using a building method you have experience with, sticking to what is tried-and-true, and avoiding distractions.
gregc riogrande5761 What you speak of above is "in an ideal world". common within the club here in NJ. members of the club work on one another's layouts and eventually help operate them. the club puts modelers in contact with one another.
riogrande5761 What you speak of above is "in an ideal world".
I spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains.
Best "train club" I was ever in.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains. Best "train club" I was ever in.
When I started the Dream House layout, I had a round-robin group to help out.
Very quickly, the guys driving up from Naples, and the one guy coming down from Port Charlotte stopped showing up. Then before long, it was just me and Randy.
As it turned out, Randy and I could build faster than a 6 person group.
SeeYou190 ATLANTIC CENTRAL I spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains. Best "train club" I was ever in. When I started the Dream House layout, I had a round-robin group to help out. Very quickly, the guys driving up from Naples, and the one guy coming down from Port Charlotte stopped showing up. Then before long, it was just me and Randy. As it turned out, Randy and I could build faster than a 6 person group. -Kevin
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I spent years as the member of a round Robin group, no club, no club layout, just meet at a different person's house each week, work on the layout or run the layout, or just hang out and talk trains. Best "train club" I was ever in.
The big secret for the group I was in, virtually all the members were/are within a 20 min drive. Yes, we have that many model railroaders who are social in this part of the country. 30 guys total on the email list for that group, 15-20 hard core, always show up.
And many more modelers we know locally who chose not to be in the group. Regionally, many hundreds, just the ones I know, or know of.