rrinker And if you are going multi-deck - I heartily recommend something like RC servos, at a fraction of the size of a Tortoise, they don't hang down much under the upper deck and are easy to hide with fascia (which also acts as a valance for the lower level). --Randy
--Randy
Do you have a specific link for these 'RC servos' you recommend?
I also don't care for the size of those Tortoise machines. I inherited a few recently and will likely use them on those turnouts that can't be reached for manual operation.
On my last layout I used the old Atlas machines with capacitive discharge operation....worked fine. And I would think also with Peco type spring loaded turnouts.
Brian
My Layout Plan
Interesting new Plan Consideration
Bookmarking the whole thread is about it, or else copying all the posts and pasting them in a document.
Thus far, nothing really new has been mentioned. All these different options can likely be found just googling for tortoise mounting along with plenty of others that haven't been mentioned here.
Frankly, simple is the best. Tehre are all sorts of methods that involve making fancy jigs, adding additional wood to mount the Tortoise to, etc. Simple, it's in the sheet that comes with the Tortoise - cut out the provided full size paper template and tape it to soemthing a bit more sturdy - thick plastic, or a piece of sheet metal, so you can use the same template 100's of times. Drill specified holes. Attach Tortoise with screws. The alignment is important but there's plenty of travel that you don't have to be accurate to the nearest 100th of an inch. About the only tiem the 'stanadrd' way doesn't work is if there is somethign in the way that can't be moved.
And if you are going multi-deck - I heartily recommend something like RC servos, at a fraction of the size of a Tortoise, they don't hang down much under the upper deck and are easy to hide with fascia (which also acts as a valance for the lower level).
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Marking (saving) a PARTICULAR posting on this subject thread / forum ??
How is it best done??
On another forum I participate it it is almost impossible (who wrote and/or selected that software for their forum?). On another RR forum it is very similar to several boating forums I participate in, and it is VERY much easier.(I wanted to save these discussions on mounting Tortoise machines as I will need such suggestions sometime in the next 6 months)
One little trick is to apply a piece of tape across the hole before installing the Tortoise. the thin music wire will punch right through and make enough of a slot to move the points (as long as you don't use something like thick and heavy duty duct tape or something) and the tape will prevent an endless pit when ballasting. Someone, one of the Tortoise alternatives I think, supplies ballast-colord self adhesive dots to cover the hole. The larger hole makes it easier to install the Tortoise but really the smaller the whole the better it looks - these stickies let you do the larger hole for ease of installation without the drawbacks of the huge bottomless pit.
Velcro should work, but the adhesive may eventually let go on the part stuck to the benchwork after some time of temperature and humidity changes. I'd consider thin double sided tape to hold the machine in place while aligning it and then just running a couple of screws in each one.
I think you mean SPDT toggles? Two positions, only one set of contacts. That's what is normally used with a +/- 12V supply for Tortoises. LEDs to reinfornce the switch handle indicating turnout alignment can just be put right in like with the motor wire coming from the toggle - the slight voltage drop below 12V will make the Tortoise quieter, too.
Dave, sounds like you are going in the right direction and experiencing a lot of success.
Good luck with those Tortoises and the velcro mounting concept. In my experience, and I have over 60 Tortoises, the best method for me is to simply use two screws, one in the front of the Tortoise and one on the back opposite side of the Tortoise. I start with a 5/8" circular hole and then align the Tortoise with the visible turnout ties above. Never have had a problem with that installation technique.
Rich
Alton Junction
We had a Layout Committee meeting on Monday night and I have to say that it was rather productive (at least nobody lost any teeth)
Seriously, we addressed quite a few issues. Some were minor, like what type of switches to use to control the turnouts. We decided on plain simple DPST toggle switches as opposed to the fancier new offerings like illuminated touch switches. We can add in LEDs easily. (Before you jump on me to insist that Tortoises require DPDT switches, they do not! If we use a power supply with a +12v and a -12v with a common neutral the DPST switches will work just fine for powering the frogs and the wiring is actually a bit simpler.)
We decided to forego the use of edge connectors for the Tortoises. We will solder wires to the Tortoise connectors directly and use terminal strips to connect all the bits and pieces. We already have 31 used Tortoises with the wires already soldered on so we will simply do the same thing for the rest of them. The cost per Tortoise for using terminal strips and wires soldered directly to the Tortoise contacts is about 1/10 the cost of the Acculite edge connectors with screw terminals, and we are essentially getting the same thing.
We decided to use velcro to attach the Tortoises to the underside of the benchwork. That method has been suggested several times on the forums and it allows for easy adjustment to get the Tortoises in the right position. If we need to make the mounting more solid we can simply run a couple of screws right through the velcro once things are adjusted properly.
We discussed what methods to use for making the landforms. That discussion was actually fairly quick because everyone agreed on using plaster cloth over pink or blue foam, with rock moldings and scultamold applied as appropriate. We decided not to use pure hard shell if for no other reason than the difficulty of getting trees to stand up straight.
We came back to the discussion of how to choose what industries will be on the layout. We have asked the club members a couple of times what industries they would like to see on the layout. We received some very general suggestions last summer but our requests for more detailed plans have gone unanswered. As a last resort we are going to ask the members to recommend what specific structures they want to see. In other words, give us a picture and a model # for the kit. If we get any responses to that the committee will then look at what suggested industries can work together in terms of operations, i.e. logging scene - saw mill - lumber yard for example. We can then use the primary structure, if approved, to develop a larger scene and to determine the footprint required when we are designing the terrain. If the members aren't forthcoming with detailed recommendations then it will fall back to the committee to design the industrial areas and town scenes.
I have also been charged with the task of designing the control panels (actually, I volunteered for that so I have nobody else to blame!).
The rest of the meeting involved a simple summary of what the next steps are in the construction of the layout. We identified which subroadbed and Homasote sections need to be cut, which roadbed sections require the track center lines and turnout locations to be drawn, and even a request from me that we get all our tools and bits organized in one place so we can find them when we want them. (Sounds simple, but you have no idea how much time we have wasted looking for errant glue bottles and jig saw blades! I swear that there is a poltergeist in the clubhouse!!!).
Anyhow, sorry for running on!
Bottom line is that we are winning and we are having fun!!
Cheers guys!!
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I think a few of these illustrations are useful in planing...
These illustrations...http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?38830-Help-Me-Plan-My-Layout&p=420043#post420043
hon30critter Yup! I could get all sorts of terrain, just not what I wanted.
Yup! I could get all sorts of terrain, just not what I wanted.
I've done the tutorial, and the mesh/terrain in the tutorial is much simpler than what's found in a more complex layout design. I've tried modifying layer cut/fill slopes, used "conform to contours and objects", etc., and still can't get decent looking mesh terrain in many areas. Just not worth the effort IMHO. I'm more interested in the track horizontal/vertical alignment and spacial relationships which are perfect in 3rd Planit.
Ray
rrinkerIt's easy to add terrain to 3PI, the hard part is making it look just right.
I started in on the tutorial last night.
It's easy to add terrain to 3PI, the hard part is making it look just right. The tutorial is a perfect place to start. Then you just have to experiment - first efforts usually look like you stuck a bunch of tent poles under a sheet of something. It's great that you can adjust it all in real time.
You can;t post pictures hosted by another forum, generally. They do not allow them to work, because you are effectively using thier bandwidth to display pictures in someone else's forum. They will work IF you are a member of the other forum and if you are signed in.
If you expect them to work for everyone, the pictures need to be posted on a PUBLIC image hosting forum.
Brian, the links are working.
Unsure as to whether images are showing up?
http://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?38830-Help-Me-Plan-My-Layout&p=419765#post419765
OK, so after spending some serious time with 3rdPlanit and getting some one on one coaching (Those curved section of benchwork were a bit of a challenge to lay out) I've come up with a very rough interpretation of what I think you've drawn
This is where I first became aware of that terrain mapping / viewing capabilities of that software,...beginning on this pagehttp://www.modelrailroadforums.com/forum/showthread.php?38830-Help-Me-Plan-My-Layout/page7&highlight=3rd+PlanIt
Colorado RayMy only problem is that I've never had much luck with terrain meshes. The only successful method I use is to connect contour planes between two contour lines.
Hi Ray:
Thanks for the suggestion. I don't need super detailed terrain diagrams. All I want is a rough picture of where the hills and hollows should be that I can hand to someone and say "do this", or at least "try to do this".
I've been a fan of 3rd Planit since it was first released. I absolutely love the ability to run trains. Unfortunately, that's probably kept me in my armchair longer than it should have. I've modeled my proposed Ventura Subdivision layout and run a complete 24 hour 48+ train schedule to check for operating conflicts. Gets pretty hairy when three or four trains are running simultaneously and you have to stay on top of turnout routing! The best upate was when they added viewpoints so you could follow a train as if you were actually operating it around the room.
My only problem is that I've never had much luck with terrain meshes. The only successful method I use is to connect contour planes between two contour lines.
in addition to the Ventura Subdivision, I've also modeled the entirety of the Harlem Transfer circa 1954 including detailed models of every structure on the property. Lol, it looks and "operates" better than any of my actual layouts.
Brian:
No reason to be sorry. You have given me cause to go back and have another look at the terrain function. It would be really useful when it comes time to do the land forms and the scenery on the club layout. Communicating what I have in my mind's eye by waving my hands in the air and repeating the words "rock" and "tree" multiple times won't do a very good job.
hon30critter Hi Brian: railandsail BTW, didn't you say you never learned how to 'run the trains' with this 3rd PlanIt software? Have you ever tried that again?? I have learned how to run trains on 3rd PlanIt. I wasn't really thrilled. The trains don't run smoothly, or at least they didn't the last time I tried which was several years ago. They move a few inches, then there is a pause, and then they jump forward a few inches, then a pause etc. etc.... I found it to be boring. It helps if all the track sections are at proper elevations and connected properly. What I have not mastered is how to create terrain and fill it in. I have given it a shot a few times but I can't seem to get the hills and the hollows exactly where I want them. I have cheated by simply placing lots of trees at different elevations to simulate the slopes so I can get an idea of what the terrain will look like. I blame my lack of computer skills and lack of understanding of some of the concepts for not being able to use the terrain building software, not the program. Dave
Hi Brian:
railandsail BTW, didn't you say you never learned how to 'run the trains' with this 3rd PlanIt software? Have you ever tried that again??
I have learned how to run trains on 3rd PlanIt. I wasn't really thrilled. The trains don't run smoothly, or at least they didn't the last time I tried which was several years ago. They move a few inches, then there is a pause, and then they jump forward a few inches, then a pause etc. etc.... I found it to be boring. It helps if all the track sections are at proper elevations and connected properly.
What I have not mastered is how to create terrain and fill it in. I have given it a shot a few times but I can't seem to get the hills and the hollows exactly where I want them. I have cheated by simply placing lots of trees at different elevations to simulate the slopes so I can get an idea of what the terrain will look like.
I blame my lack of computer skills and lack of understanding of some of the concepts for not being able to use the terrain building software, not the program.
I think I mis-spoke about the train running aspect. I was thinking of the terrain aspect. Sorry
rrinker Jerky motion in the 3D mode of 3rd PlanIt usually means an inadequate video card. Does your computer have a seperate video card? If so, what brand?
I'm not sure what video card is in my current computer. Nothing ever seems to lag on it. In fact it has been so long since I tried to run trains on 3rd PlanIt that it may not have been this computer I was working with. I'm sure that Randy Pfiffer has updated the software since I last ran a train in 3D.
Dave (the computer dinosaur!!)
Jerky motion in the 3D mode of 3rd PlanIt usually means an inadequate video card. Does your computer have a seperate video card? If so, what brand?
Not sure if this is still an issue, but way back in the day when I was first starting to mess around with 3PI, I had the one computer I've built over the years with an ATI (now AMD) video card, and it was horrible. Games were fine - but trying to run trains in 3PI, or even trying to move about the room in 3D mode, was horribly slow. But my OLD computer, MUCH slower at anythign else, was really good and smooth with 3PI. That was the first and last ATI video card I ever bought, strictly nVidia since then.
But even on my workbench computer, which just uses the standard graphics on the processor, no extra video card, it runs rather smoothly.
Hi Robert:
So you don't mind all my whining eh? Thanks for your comments.
Next step as far as the benchwork goes is to see what subroadbed and Homasote sections still need to be cut to finish the benchwork around the outer walls. Then we have one remaing section of benchwork framing that fits against the south wall to assemble. Then we will have to tear down the walls of our existing storage area so we can store the portable layout in that space. That is going to be a messy job.
Once we can get the portable layout out of the way we can start building the rather large peninsula. It will be approx. 9' x 16' when finished. We will build it in two halves split lengthwise so we can reach into the center to do scenery. There is no track in the center area, just scenery. All the peninsula track will be within 30" of the fascia, most of it much less. Once the out of reach areas are done we will join the two halves together and do the track etc.
In the mean time, we will be laying cork and installing wiring and track as the benchwork gets finished.
I'll try to remember to take my camera next Monday.
Dave this is a great thread and I have enjoyed following it for a while. I can't wait for the next adventurer in this layout.
Robert
railandsailBTW, didn't you say you never learned how to 'run the trains' with this 3rd PlanIt software? Have you ever tried that again??
Missed that. On my previous layout it was great as I was able to fully simulate my intended operations. Need patience for a larger layout, and you also need to be careful to make sure all track ends are actually connected, otherwise the train just stops.
BTW, didn't you say you never learned how to 'run the trains' with this 3rd PlanIt software? Have you ever tried that again??
Make no mistake! I'm still having fun, and I'm slowly getting better at herding cats!!
Practice makes perfectBrian
And I thought it was bad when I had to come up with activities to keep 2 others busy when they came over once a week to help me work on my last layout...
Just a short update (partially so I can vent my spleen):
I went up to the club on Tuesday night (nice normal Canadian wintery 40 km drive with lots of slick roads and blowing snow) hoping to get the next steps in the construction of the new layout organized, and maybe actually get something done! Not much got done!
We needed to study the benchwork plans so we could determine what parts needed to be cut next. Henk forgot to bring the benchwork plans. Without the plans we couldn't do any planning, and we had only one small piece of Homasote that we could cut. When we went to cut it we discovered that the member who owns the jig saw we have been using to cut everything so far had taken the jig saw home for the holidays with our last blade in it. We had a brand new jig saw (mine, still in the box) but the single blade that was provided with it was hideously coarse and would likely have torn the Homasote to shreds. We eventually did get the piece cut by hand with a utility knife, but that was hard work and we will try to avoid doing that in the future.
The total effort on Tuesday amounted to getting a 16" x 18" piece of Homasote installed, and we pulled a bunch of push pins out of the cork roadbed where the glue was dry. We also relocated some of the raw materials and already cut pieces so we could get at the next section of the layout to install the plywood and Homasote, so the night wasn't a total loss.
Making sure the track is connect was probbaly the hardest part of learning the program, but I'm pretty fanatical about it, because if the track isn;t connected, then your train stops or derails when you try to run it in 3D mode. And you get inconsistent results trying to measure the total length.
I'd have to say having it suggest solutions would be best left out, just the difference between DC and DCC changes how you would resolve many reverse loop issues. And of course 3rd PlanIt supports 3 rail track which would need to disable the checking entirely since there's no such thing as a reverse loop electrical issue with 3 rail. Going to be interesting to see what he comes up with.
rrinkerThat would be neat - and maybe not all that hard to do, just have to allow for the left and right rails to be set to different colors instead of both the same. --Randy
Actually, part of my conversation with Randy Pfieffer at 3rd PlanIt suggested the opposite. For one thing, all of your track sections would have to be properly connected which can take some time to do. Sometimes track looks to be connected but isn't, and that can take a bit of time to fix properly.
Secondly, Randy sees the process as being a 'try and try again' proposition. In other words, the program would show rail polarity but you would have to decide on the changes needed to address any conflicts. Once you make the changes you would run the program again to test for any new or remaining problems. It might take several tries before you have proper return loops long enough to hold your longest trains. Having the program be able to suggest solutions would require some pretty complex software.
None the less, there is now a light at the end of that proverbial tunnel, and it won't go out because of a short in the track wiring!