Mobilman44 I will check out the Kalmbach books. Thank you. I've read two of Atlas's books - "The Atlas Beginner's Guide to HO Model Railroading" and "The Complete Atlas Wiring Book". They are more like pamphlets. I have also read the manuals that came with my equipment. I have read lots of online information and downloaded some very specific technical information on automated reversing loops. I have also talked to a lot of support people.
I'm happy with how I am progressing. I appreciate help when I get it. If a track plan is flawed it is flawed. It doesn't matter whether a novice or a pro designed it.
I think I am planning to use the trains in a different way than most everybody here. I am not a prototyper. I do not wish to recreate a specific yard or railroad. I do not wish to provide my grandchildren with toys. I guess I have failed to communicate what I plan to accomplish with the kids in a way that is clear to everybody.
I am seeking to build the layout I need to accomplish my goals.
If I needed a 3 bedroom house and wished to build it myself, I would need details on how to do that. If in the past I had built smaller structures that may be very valuable, but if I need a 3 bedroom house now, I'm not going to start with a shed.
I don't want the kids to relate to the trains. I want them to: think how they can get them to move forward and backward; put them in a reverse direction; and move them from one track segment to another. I know they can learn that.
The layout will be on a flat table. We will make scenery and decorations for it. I don't imagine our scenery will be to scale or look anythiing like you would find on a serious layout or possibly any layout.
I want a creative, educational experience for the kids. So far the kids are with me. If they show no further interest then I will reconsider what I am doing.
If at some later time the kids want to pursue this further then they can. The equipment can all be reconfigured. It's not a big deal to disassemble track if you have not permanently affixed it to a table. There are no elevations.
I would like to impart some wisdom to my grandchildren. There is nothing wrong with me learning along side them. There are many different things I would like to explore with them. This is just one of those things. We are also working on learning the solar system. I would not be surprised if the scenery on the layout turned out to be celestial objects.
There is also G scale equipment for them to play with. They really like that, but I do not have enough space to configure it in a way to do what I want to do with them.
Hey Mike, I liked your post. I wished you had not deleted it.
I think I have the wiring down. The wiring was an issue if I wanted to automate the reversing loops. That would require electronic circuits. I think I haved learned how to do that, but I have no desire to do so. The manual switching is more consistent with what I want to do.
What I mean by a diagram is something like this:
"One way to build a double track crossover with Atlas Code 83 snap track is to use the following parts: 2 Atlas 563 turnouts with 2 Atlas 584 remote switch machines; 2 Atlas 564 turnouts with 2 Atlas 585 remote switch machines;1 Atlas 572 crossing; and 2 Atlas 524-2 straight track segments. If you use these parts you will have a double track crossover that is just under 26" long and the track centers will be about 3" on center." They could have a very simple diagram showing how the parts fit together along with the list.
I don't know what they call the reversing loop shape I am using, but I'll call it a "teardrop". They could have a similar parts lists for reversing loops using different radius track segments.
I would find things like that helpful.
Sometimes imprecision in terms the forum regulars use creates problems for newcomers.
Brendan BuschiI know how to post attachments, I am just not involved with any services (ie. photobucket) that would facilitate that.
There are no “attachments” in the forum -- and you don't need Photobucket if you have other places to post the image on the web. Instead, one places the image on a web page (as you already did) and then posts the link to that image here. So (with Windows), right-click on the image on your website, copy the "image address", and then use the little icon that looks like the moon over a mountain to insert the link. Voila, your image, as below.
It is actually possible to incorporate reversing connections on your table (in red) without the discrete loops, if you cared to (at least, with flextrack). With that, the minimum radius may also be increased overall, all turnouts brought near the layout edge, and a couple of handy double-ended storage tracks incorporated. One or two emergency/maintenance “manholes” would still be needed to reach track far from the table edge. This is a quick sketch, but it is to-scale.
As others have suggested, looking at alternative shapes to a large table may give you a more accessible layout with more opportunities. The image below is a super-quick look that could be refined a lot (to add storage tracks, etc.). I kept this within the outline of your current table, but of course you might be able to do something much more efficient by considering the overall space, not just the tabletop. One important concept is placing the layout around the space as much as possible with the people inside.
Personally, I find many advantages to this approach in most situations. One may walk into the layout, allowing folk large and small a better view of the trains up close. By adding double-sided backdrops, one could create independent scenes. Radii may stay fairly broad and the running length is increased by 50% or more.
Brendan BuschiI don't want the kids to relate to the trains.
Personally, that seems contrary to what might give them the most fun -- and certainly different than my own experiences with kids and trains. Just my opinion.
Along with others, I am concerned about the enjoyment youngsters of that age will have from this project. Every child is different, but my own experience is that kids enjoy most working with things that they can manipulate themselves, then take apart and do it again. The LEGO trains are fantastic for this (and BRIO for younger kids). It will probably be some years before your grandchildren can use power tools or a soldering iron safely, and their interest may wane long before then. That will leave you doing a lot of work alone before trains can even run – which doesn’t seem like the experience that you are seeking. And if the layout ends up being built by you and mostly eventually for you to use, is this the layout that you want?
But these are issues for you alone to sort out. Along with others, I agree that some background in the best practices of model railroad design would go a long way in helping with your track-planning efforts. Good luck.
Byron
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
Byron, thank you for the advice. I really appreciate your efforts to help me and I am doing what you suggested with the s-curves.
I will be doing all of the track assembly myself. I will show them what I am doing and let them handle some track and let them try to connect a few pieces together. I don't plan to do much soldering and I had hoped to avoid cutting track. Last week my 4 year old granddaughter built a butterfly house from a kit by herself. She followed the instructions. Used a hammer and nails and glue. She also painted and decorated the outside.
I want to teach the kids to control the trains. If I do that I will be a very happy man.
The layout "decorations" should be great fun for them.
After that we will probably move on to other things. At some point I can go back to the trains and explain DC and AC electricity to them.
I used to teach various computer certification courses to people of varying ages and backgrounds. Some were in their teens and some were in their sixties. What I always did in the first class was introduce myself and start disassembling a computer and passing around the parts for them to hold and examine. When the parts were completely dispersed among the students I would start drawing a block diagram of a computer on a white board and expalin what each component did. That was my first class. Handling the parts desensitized the students to computers. My students all had their certifications by the end of the course. They all mastered TCP/IP addressing as well which was far beyond the curriculum for that course.
One time I taught a "troubled" teenager binary math in about 2 hours. He was the fastest student to get that down. My experience has taught me to have high expectations. There's no shame in making a mistake as long as you learn from it. Children are capable of far more than we give them credit for.
You have been very kind with your time.
Thanks again.
Brendan BuschiI want to teach the kids to control the trains. If I do that I will be a very happy man.
I'm glad to try to help folks -- but I should have read your posts from today before working on the plans, which seem to be of no use to you. Perhaps someone else with a broader interest in model railroading will benefit.
If it's simply a matter of creating a kinetic logic puzzle and exercise in control manipulation for the grandkids, you could certainly accomplish it in much less space and for much less money. This "schematic" approach could also be brought into operation much more quickly, if you're eager to get the testbed up and running.
This is particularly true if the trains are going to be short anyway -- the layout could be much smaller and still incorporate your desired skils challenges. And if you don't care if the kids relate to the trains themselves as models of real-life objects with unique characteristics and interesting historic and human-interest aspects of their own, then appearance is much less important.
To me (and only to me), that's missing out on a lot of potential fun and some of what folks used to call "right-brain" learning.
I hope it works out well for you and the young'uns.
One last thing (I promise) ...
Brendan BuschiI don't plan to do much soldering
With Atlas sectional track, long-term reliability of the layout will likely require a good bit of soldering. The rail joiners can become loose and may not provide good long-term conductivity on their own -- and DCS can be sensitive to poor connections.
If the layout is not intended to last in one configuration for years, it may be a moot point, but you may find yourself needing to solder a large number of spots (either soldering the joiners or dropping feeder wires). Murphy ’s Law suggests that these will be at the locations that are hardest to reach.
KATO Unitrack uses a larger connector in the roadbed that makes much more electrically secure section-to-section connections. While much more expensive, it does eliminate soldering.
Hey Byron, I am saying what I need to say to lend clarity to those who are listening to me.
I have an agneda with my grandchildren. It is a multi-stage, multi-year agenda. What I am doing now is the beginning.
I think scale is important. The larger the scale the more time someone has to react or act to accomplish something. The larger the scale the more attention it demands.
If the children learn what I initially want to teach them, in the process they will be exposed to model railroading as well. Down the road I am hoping to take them on some old time train tours and expose them to trains and history.
The table I've built is also big enough for them to experiment with down the road if they are inclined to do something with the trains and I hope they are. I am also building in a way that can easily be dismantled and redone.
The broader information you provided is valuable to anyone embarking on a layout design. It may yet be utilized by me with them in time.
I have not spent that much money. I built the table myself. The tracks and turnouts did not cost that much. I am well within budget.
Byron, I am happy to hear anything you have to say. I can learn a lot from you. I understand the soldering issue. I plan on using a number of extra track feeds. I will be configuring the track feeds in a star as opposed to a bus configuration. Thanks again.
cuyama If it's simply a matter of creating a kinetic logic puzzle and exercise in control manipulation for the grandkids, you could certainly accomplish it in much less space and for much less money. This "schematic" approach could also be brought into operation much more quickly, if you're eager to get the testbed up and running.
Rich
Alton Junction
An "agenda for grandkids" fascinates me. Good luck with that!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Thanks Mobilman44. I'll let you know how it goes, In the meantime I still have to put it all together. I'll let you know how that goes too.
Rich a switch puzzle layout would not do what I want. It is too limited and too focused. It's also too small. Providing a big table with a lot of track resources on it gives them the opportunity to create an envirorment as well. It also shows them the potential of what they can do for themselves later on.
The more I read from the OP ,its beganing to look like an experiment on programing childern's thought process. On someone else's kids.
A 4 year old"s only concern should be nap time and where is the cookie jar.
Has little if anything to do with MR
Unclebutch all experiences program our thought processes. Teaching someone how to accomplish a task is just that - "here's how you get from point a to point b." Simple. If you see something sinister in that I suggest you have something else going on. Anything I do with our grandchildren I do with their parents' blessings. I provide an experience for the children, they are not required to partake.
Anything that uses model trains has something to do with model railroading.
So here's one last variation on the design. I just did it to see about another loop. This is not what I will build. It has no s-curves. All track centers are a minimum of 3" apart on center.
Brendan Buschi Anything that uses model trains has something to do with model railroading.
Rich I first came here to find out about building reverse loops. Then I just shared my thoughts about how you can really get into this. This last thread was simply intended to share my progress as I built the layout. In the process there has been discussion about s-curves and accessibility to the track.
Some people who have responded on this thread broadened the conversation beyond what I had originally intended. I'm guessing that when people stop posting on this thread it will stop on its own volition.
What I have learned here is that there is a certain rigidity and resentment among some posters that I have trouble understanding. Other posters go out of their way to be helpful.
I'm building a fully operational model railroad. It will have 2 reversing loops and at least 2 double track crossovers. There will be 2, possibly 3 locomotives on the tracks. I am using DCS and designing the layout so it is compatible with that. In the process I am using layout design software and that alone might be worth a discussion.
I'm not building a diorama.
I did not know that each thread should "advance the hobby."
I am here to learn, pass on what I learn, share ideas, share conversation with like minded people and admire the work of those far more talented that I will ever be. In the grand scheme of things, don't look for my name on a plaque on the wall at Kalmbach Publishing or NMRA.
Brendan, you are an opinionated guy, as am I, as are most people here. You are entitled to your opinion and you don't have to take every suggestion or be shown the door. There are no threads here that require anyone to take an emotional stake in the outcome. If people disagree or have no interest, they don't have to keep posting in this thread, there are plenty of other threads to read.
You are at least doing something. We recently had a resurrected thread that started 2 years ago. The OP didn't know where to start then and after reading and studying he is still unable to lay the first piece of track.
As someone's signature line says, "It's my railroad I make the rules". I say do what you want to do.
Henry
COB Potomac & Northern
Shenandoah Valley
Thank you BigDaddy.
Hi Brendan:
Here's my worth: Its your railroad and you can do what you want!
I admire your commitment to your grandchildren, although I think that HO scale at age 4 is taking a bit of a chance. None the less, you are on that road already so go for it. Just don't do what I did with my kids, which was to show them too much and not let them do enough. I'm looking forward to my second chance with my future grand kids.
Regards
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hey Dave - grandchildren are a whole new experience. They exhaust us, but its a great exhaustion. I've never been exposed at this level to twins before. Its amazing.
Before I embarked on this HO endeavor, I got them 2 sets of used G scale trains. They took to them and learned to control them. That's what prompted me to take it up a notch and see how they handle it. So far so good. I was showing their dad the latest layout on the computer today and one of the boys said "train tracks dad". They seem eager to get on with it.
I was going to get them O scale trains for this layout, but we wouldn't have been able to have much of a layout because of size and space limitations. I wanted them to have something challenging. I actually think they will have more fun building structures for the tabletop. They like to make things. I've been saving up cardboard boxes and foam. They like to paint. I got them a big firehouse for Christmas and they really enjoy playing with that. Today they were looking at a video on bulding the solar system.
Thanks.
Brendan, I sure didn't mean to suggest that your objective wasn't noble. With two grandkids myself aged 6 and 4, there is no doubt that kids that age are totally fascinated by model train layouts. So, let me add a note of encouragement to what you are trying to do. Incidentally, even though you said that you don't plan to build your layout based upon that latest diagram that you posted, it is the most interesting one of all of them, so my vote is for your latest track diagram.
Hey Rich, I am going to build that layout minus the inner loop. I will have the double track crossover in place just in case they want to expand the layout at some point.
Right now I'm working on how to attach the track to the table. I want to use foam under the track. I also want to nail the track down so it can be easily taken apart and reconfigured. I have some old track that I will test on. I don't want to break the ties trying to take out nails in the future.
I will do one final printout of the entire layout. I'll attach that to the table. That is surprisingly accurate. I will lay unattached track on that to confirm that all is well and then I will put the foam down on top of the printout and proceed. I can cut away the excess paper when I am done.
I experimented with completing the reversing loops with flex track today. That went well, but I will definately have to secure the flex track in order to put it in place.
I can see where flex track allows you to do things that track segments do not.
Take care.
Brendan, by all means, use foam for the roadbed and nail the track in place. That is what I do.
I use Atlas flex track and Atlas Track Nails, and Woodland Scenics Foam Track Bed. I use a pin vise to drill pilot holes which makes the nailing easier. I use a nail punch to finish the nailing so as not to break the ties.
If you need to pull up the track, you can use a putty knife to slightly lift the flex track, and that raises the nail so that a pair of needle nose pliers can easily remove the nail without damaging the ties.
Thank you Rich, that was very helpful. What size drill bit do you use to drill though the ties on the flex track? Do you use the same bit for the pilot holes?
I use a #58 - .042" diameter drill bit in a pin vise like the one shown in the link below:
https://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/230-811
I drill the pilot hole straight through the center of the tie, the foam roadbed, and into the pywood surface of the layout.
Thanks again Rich.
Rich when you drill the pilot hole into the table do you go the entire length of the nail? If so, does the nail grab into the table or is it mostly just sitting there?
Here are questions for everyone: Have you ever used ATG tape to attach the foam or cork to the table? Have you ever used ATG tape to attach the track to whatever surface it is going on?
I would think you would want the nail to have some "bite" into whatever is going to hold the track. For the track around the Christmas tree I used 1" foam and track. It held OK for short term use, but you can pull the nails out with your finger nail.
No experience with tape. For my current construction, which is starting with a yard/switching module, I put 2" foam on 1/8" plywood, and put sheet cork from AC Moore on top of that. The foam glued well to the plywood with PL 300 loktite adhesive.
I tried the same thing with the sheet cork, after watching a youtube vid of a guy brushing on diluted white glue, who had the glue soak through the cork and stick to what he use to weight the cork. I tried to spread the PL 300 with a putty knife, but there were areas with no adhesive. Some of those turned into spongy areas under the cork, as if there was a bubble.
I injected those areas with diluted 50/50 white glue, a 10 cc syringe and an 18 ga needle. The mixture does indeed come up through pores in the cork. I covered that with was paper and then a board weighted by paint cans. The next morning the waxed paper came off, the surface of the cork was damp but stuck to the foam underneath.
Brendan, when I drill the hole, I can feel the drill bit penetrating the plywood, At that point, the length of the pilot hole is deep enough for most of the nail to pass through the tie and the foam roadbed. So, it is at that point that I hammer the nail into the pilot hole and use the nail punch to finish the nailing without compressing the tie or the foam. With a little practice, you will master that technique. I do not glue the foam roadbed to the layout surface because the nails are sufficient to hold the foam roadbed in place.