Thanks Mel - that's a good suggestion. My corner is lighted but I can definately see putting some of these under my table.
I'm sitting here at heartbreak junction. I got the other 2 freight cars I ordered today and added them to the train and everything was great. I tested them through every track and had no problems. Then I just sat back and had the train on the outer loop and was just watching it run. I was thoroughly enjoying it and it just stopped. When it stopped the display on the DCS flashed the engine number.
I eventually called MTH and they walked me through a few steps and then said I needed to send it in for warranty repair. I talked to the dealer where I bought it and he told me to bring it in and he will take care of getting it back and forth with MTH - he goes there every week.
I checked out the voltage on all the tracks and everything was rock solid. I also ran a standard DC engine around the track and that was fine too.
I guess I can continue planning on the tunnel while this gets resolved.
Oh well, that's life on the rails for you.
Brendan Buschi Oh well, that's life on the rails for you.
Rich
Alton Junction
Thanks Mel.
Brendan BuschiThe tunnel will take up a corner edge of the table and the entire back of it will be open and accessible.
I figured you would have it covered.
For the sun - what about using a 6" globe light bulb hung from the ceiling and painted with Tamiya Clear Yellow? Your grand daughter could do the painting, and the less than perfect coverage would actually represent the sun more realistically than a smooth coat. I don't think that the paint would present a hazard given the large size of the bulb, but I wouldn't do it on anything smaller.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
Hey Dave,
You've got me thinking. I like your idea, but I think I need a much larger sun - however, Ever will be the final authority and I will tell her what you recommend and show one to her.
On the other hand when I read your post I had a picture in my mind of one of those old swag lamps with the melted glass for the sun. They are really big, they have all that spaghetti glass and you can get them in colors. They would also help keep the planets in the proper size ratio.
Jupiter and Saturn are large planets. The six inch globe light bulbs could be used for them. I wouldn't even have to electrify them. They would be easy to hang and they can be painted as needed, plus I could get increasingly smaller bulbs for the other planets and do the same with them.
On the other hand, the boys are more inclined to insist on proper size ratios. Ever, who will easily trump the boys - she has 2 years on them - will care less about accurate size ratios and more about neat stuff. She would probably want to light up the planets as well.
Until you posted this I was thinking in terms of balls with a basketball for the sun and working down to a ping pong ball for the dwarf planets. I didn't know about dwarf planets until the kids told me about them - they can rattle off all their names without batting an eye.
You've opened a new door.
Thanks.
Hey Rich,
I am rapidly moving toward replacing the DCS Commander with a DCC controller. You have been one of the strongest advocates for this so I would very much like your advice on the following:
1. What DCC controller would you recommend? I have a 14 x 9.5 layout. I will never operate more than 3 locomotives on it at the same time.
2. My MTH locomotive is supposed to run in DCC mode as well. Do you have an opinion about using an MTH locomotive with DCC?
I got a great reply from Rallison. He actually went through this with MTH and I am inclined to follow in his footsteps. He made me aware of things I never would have considered in terms of what the problem is.
I do believe this is a design flaw with MTH.
I wish I had landed on this blog first before proceeding with equipment purchases. What did I know? I liked the dealer.
Brendan:
If I can step in to give my opinion on what DCC sytem to buy, I strongly recommend the NCE Power Cab. It is affordable, it will do everything you want to do with your three locomotives, it does not require any additional equipment to get it up and running or to program any DCC decoders, and it can be expanded should you decide to do so down the road. It is also very intuitive to use, and although the control unit may be a bit large for tiny hands I don't see that as a huge problem. My nephew operated mine just fine at age 6.
All advice is most welcome. Rallison recommended the exact same system and I am pretty sure that is what I will get. I am glad to hear you are recommending the same.
Do you have any reversing loops on your setup? If so, what components are you using for them?
Any other advice on anything any time - I welcome it all.
Thanks again.
Hi Brendan:
Alas, I do not have a layout yet. The space I have planned for it has been occupied by my son's gym equipment and I chose to let him stay healthy instead of starting my layout. However, he is actually at the point of having been approved for a mortgage and he is actively searching for a house!!!!! After close to 15 years in the hobby I'm actually going to be able to start a layout hopefully within a few months at most.
To answer your question, I am going to use DCC Specialities Powershield X products for my reverse loops:
http://dccspecialties.com/
Brendan Buschi I am rapidly moving toward replacing the DCS Commander with a DCC controller. What DCC controller would you recommend?
I am rapidly moving toward replacing the DCS Commander with a DCC controller.
What DCC controller would you recommend?
Now, don't get me wrong. I have six granchildren myself and the two youngest are 6 and 5. I get a big kick out of playing with them with their LEGO sets, and Play Doh, and all that other stuff that draws the attention of such youngsters. But, I don't let them integrate that stuff into my layout. I keep it separate.
So, stuff like building a solar system on your layout tells me that your interest is more in line with entertaining the kids rather than serious layout building. Nothing wrong with that, except that it should influence any decison about the type of DCC system to purchase. My inclination toward others who ask is to recommend the NCE Pro Cab system over the NCE Power Cab system, but cost is a big factor and so is the current amd/or future size of your layout.
What I am saying is that you are going to need to reflect on your priorities. If you are feeling a serious interest in model railroading for yourself, that is one thing. Setting up a small layout to entertain the grandkids is quite another. Both are a noble pursuits, but it is questionable whether you can combine the two priorities. At least, that is my opinion. Others may feel free to differ.
Hey Rich, you are right about my priorities. This system will never get bigger with me. I just wanted to build a quality system - I don't like shabby. If the kids get hooked and take it further when they are older - God bless them.
First and foremost, I want them to learn a whole bunch of things. I wnat them to learn to think and apply logic. I want them to learn about trains. I want them to learn about electricity. They are already teaching me about the solar system.
This layout was designed by me for a maximum of 3 locomotives. The third is apt to be a completely isolated elevated track for a subway.
As I said in an earlier thread, if I have to I can go to DCC and use the MTH locomotive in DCC mode. I'd be out about $200 for the DCS Commander.
$200 is not a small sum to me, but once I bought the equipment I needed to first see if I could make it work. I have no idea what happened, but I don't think it should have happened.
So now I go to plan B - get a DCC controller and do what I need to to make that work.
So a recommendation of equipment is not dependent upon what I do with the kids. It's dependent on where I want to take the layout mechanically and technically. The track is all laid. The turnouts are in place. The wiring is done. The switches are in place. I have the first locomotive. Now I need to power it and be able to power and control a maximum of 2 more.
Anything done after I get the layout functioning is cosmetic. The solar system is cosmetic. I have no need to ballast the tracks and I didn't need to put track bed down, but I enjoy learning and doing things right.
I don't want to make a second mistake. If I can get the control in place, I will be a happy grandpa-railroader man.
Truth be told, I have always loved model tains. They are incredible. I never had the time or proper situation to pursue them. My situation has changed and the kids have given me the extra motivation to actually do this.
So here I am. The trains aren't running and I need power to the tracks. What do I get for what I have now plus 2 more locomotives?
hon30critterit does not require any additional equipment to get it up and running
Hi again Brendan:
I'll change that recommendation slightly to better reflect your goals. If you want your grandkids to all be able to operate locomotives at the same time you will need a couple of extra throttles. They should have separate connection points so the kids aren't tripping over each other. That will require two additional Powercab Panels plus the necessary wires to connect them together.
I know Rich recommended the PH-PRO 5 amp system (which is a great system) but for your purposes (which you have stated clearly) I think you would be further ahead to buy the Powercab and the extra throttles. Unfortunately that brings your cost up to about $440.00 + tax and shipping for the conversion to DCC, but all three kids would then be able to operate their own locomotives all at the same time. The total cost for the Powercab and the extra two throttles and necessary bits works out to about $90.00 less than the PH-PRO 5 by itself, and only one operator can use the PRO 5 throttle at a time (unless you buy more throttles which will make the PRO 5 a really expensive system). Bottom line is that the Powercab will do everything you want and in your case there is nothing to be gained by spending the extra money on the PRO 5.
As far as which models to consider for the extra throttles, I would lean towards the CAB04-P because it has a 'potentiometer' knob style throttle. In other words the stop point on the knob is always in the same place and you can look at the knob to see how much throttle you have applied. The other option for the same price is the CAB05 which uses push buttons to increase or decrease speed but it does not tell you what your throttle setting is. To me, I think that being able to actually see the throttle position would be better for the young kids.
More worth!
Hey Dave, now I'm way over my head. I liked your original recommendation and am inclined to go that way. What you are talking about now is way beyond me or anything I had imagined. It was never my intention to have more than one person operating any and all trains at a time. I just wanted to teach each one of them how to operate a train on the layout and get anywhere they wanted to go on the layout. If I accomplished that I would have met my goals. I can't imagine more than one person operating the trains at a time. I've never experienced that. I am a total newcomer to all this. It's been over 60 years and I'm into this now for 2 months.
I thought a single loop would bore them. I actually set up a big figure 8 with a used set of G scale trains and they learned how to start and stop the locomotive. They learned how to speed it up and slow it down. They learned how to make it go forward and in reverse. They started to get bored.
The layout I've built has an outer loop and an inner loop. It has a middle track that has a reversing loop at each end and all 3 of these sections are accessable to any train because of the 2 double track crossovers. I threw in a "yard" off the inner loop for good measure so that you could have a second locomotive hanging out there without applying power to it. If we all got proficient and decided to get really daring we could try having 2 locomotives operational at the same time - one on the inner loop and one on the outer loop. The ultimate test of our proficiency might be to have them switch the loops they were running on. That would require a lot of coordination and fine control of each train and all the switches. In that scenario, one person would run the trains and the other the switches.
The other reason I wanted 2 locomotives is so that they could see the difference between the steam and diesel trains. I wanted to tickle their intrest in trains and eventually take them on train rides. I've seen a few videos of places you could go and ride old trains. I left the possibility of a third "train" open. I'm a Brooklyn boy and wanted them to see a subway as well - possibly even a trolley. When I was a kid I rode the subways and I rode and remember the Coney Island Avenue trolley that we would take to the beach. These kids have never seen a subway or a tolley.
When my daughter was little we took her and 2 of her friends to New York. We stayed at a friend's house and we took a commuter train into the city and then took the subways to go all over the place visiting things like the Empire State Bulding, the Hayden Planetarium and the Museum of Natural History. We all had a ball. I think that was the first and possibly only time any of them were ever on a subway. We were living in very rural New Hampshire at the time.
I must admit, the subway was born out of nostalgia on my part. I thought we could build a simple elevated track that was not connected to the others and run the subway on that.
Now you have opened yet another door for me. The idea of 2 people with each running one train and a third person operating the switches sounds interesting. More than that sounds like mayhem.
It took me a long time to buy the DCS Commander and the locomotive. I went to the dealers that I could reach. I needed to see the equipment. I ended up going to see one of them several times. I had no idea what to do. I originally thought I'd go with O scale but it became very clear to me that I would be limited with what I could do because of space. I wanted to have an interesting layout.
HO gave me the ability to do much more in my space, but even with HO I went beyond what I originally intended in terms of table space.
So now I will start exploring DCC. I need to research this and feel comfortable before I jump. I need to understand what, if any, electrical modifications to the existing layout I will have to make.
I knew nothing about reversing loops and it took me weeks to get comfortable with what I had to do. It took me weeks to come up with an overall layout and every time I thought I had it, I learned something new and modified it. It took me half an hour to figure out how to physically attach the snap switches to the turnouts. Keep in mind that if I wanted to see an actual train it took me over an hour to get to the dealer. I went to the library and I watched a lot of on-line videos.
Ironically, the only thing I did not research was DCS. I got to see that at the dealer and trusted in what I was being told. When I tried to come up with a plan for the reversng loops I realized I had extra work ahead of me because I was using DCS.
I trust the people on this forum. I wish I had known about this before I ended up with DCS, but I didn't and I couldn't just put that aside and buy new equipment without first making sure that I needed to do that.
So here I am waiting for things to open on Tuesday. I have to bring the locomotive into the dealer. I want to talk with the people who make the things you all have been suggesting. I need to get comfortable and understand what I am doing.
I know almost nothing about DCC.
Brendan BuschiI know almost nothing about DCC.
Brendan, let me fill you in with some facts about DCC.
A digital command control system was developed (under contract by Lenz Elektronik GmbH of Germany) in the 1980s for two German model railway manufacturers, Märklin and Arnold . The first digital decoders that Lenz produced appeared on the market early 1989 for Arnold (N) and mid 1990 for Märklin (Z, H0 and 1; Digital=). Märklin and Arnold exited the agreement over patent issues, but Lenz has continued to develop the system. In 1992 Stan Ames, who later chaired the NMRA/DCC Working Group, investigated the Märklin/Lenz system as possible candidate for the NMRA/DCC standards. When the NMRA Command Control committee requested submissions from manufacturers for its proposed command control standard in the 1990s, Märklin and Keller Engineering submitted their systems for evaluation. The committee was impressed by the Märklin/Lenz system and had settled on digital early in the process. The NMRA eventually licensed the protocol from Lenz and extended it. The system was later named Digital Command Control. The proposed standard was published in the October 1993 issue of Model Railroader magazine prior to its adoption.
The DCC protocol is the subject of two standards published by the NMRA: S-9.1 specifies the electrical standard, and S-9.2 specifies the communications standard. Several recommended practices documents are also available.
In the early 1990´s Märklin decided to go their own way and developed, together with Motorola, an own, proprietary system for their 3-rail AC HO scale trains.
The key issue is that DCC is standardized and has become the industry standard, unlike other control systems like DCS, Rail-Lynx, Trainmaster Command Control and Trix Selectrix. DCC is both market and technology leader and, despite the opinion of very few folks in here being able to look into the crystal ball and tell the future, DCC will be around for many more years and will be enriched with new features.
DCC is a good investment, regardless of the make you choose.
My tiny layout is DC only, but if I were to buy a DCC system, I´d buy the Lenz starter sytem SET 010, as it is cheaper than any of the US makes in my country.
I think a pretty basic, but quality system does the job for you. My choice would be the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra, which has a street price of about $ 170 (see here) I like the design of it, looking quite like a real loco throttle. The Zephyr can be expanded, if you would like to add more throttles to it, so each kid can run his/her own train.
First, I understand that you want to teach your grandchildren certain things about railroading. However, your concept of only operating one locomotive at a time seems to me to present a bit of a problem in that two out of the three kids will be standing around waiting for their turn on the throttle. Wouldn't it be more entertaining if they were each to be able to operate their own locomotive all at the same time?
One of the main objectives of DCC was to provide the ability to run several locomotives at once, even in close proximity to each other on the same piece of track. If you are going to invest in DCC, why not take full advantage of it to achieve your goals and keep the kids from getting bored between turns on the throttle.
Having said that, I will confuse the picture even further by asking why do you even need DCC if you just want to operate one or two locomotives? For your purposes, the only major difference between DC and DCC would be the ability to have sound, and even that can be done without DCC. A basic DC system only requires a simple power pack with a throttle and a reverse switch. Here is one example. MRC has a good reputation for their DC products (not so much for their DCC stuff):
http://www.modelrectifier.com/search/product-view.asp?ID=1291
Very inexpensive! No decoders so the locomotives are cheaper. No fancy hand held controls. You can even divide your layout up into separate sections and use one power pack on each. In fact, your layout design would be ideal for that. In addition, all that you require for the reverse loops is a simple toggle switch (but you have to remember to throw it at the right times). Your G scale layout was very likely DC so you probably already know lots about it.
DCC definitely has lots more options but I don't see anywhere in your stated goals that you would make significant use of them. You are not going to get into things like speed curve programming, and the kids probably won't give a hoot if the locomotives can't crawl at a snail's pace. Down the road you can easily switch to DCC if you want to. That's what tons of modelers have done in the past.
There! That ought to confuse the issue!!
I'd suggest taking a pause before running into a hobby shop to buy a DCC system right away.
Dave, you have said it all and said it very well. That is why, in my most recent reply, I raised the issue of how Brendan intends to go forward and what his priorities are for the layout.
If he wanted to get deeper into model railroading for himself as opposed to keeping a simple layout to entertain his grandkids, then i would recommend a more sophisticated system such as the NCE PH-Pro. If the budget were a problem, then the NCE Power Cab might be appropriate since it can handle three locomotives without any problems.
But with his latest reply, I don't see any reason to even get into DCC. Why bother if only one train at a time will be run? A simple inexpensive DC power pack would do the job along with a couple of toggle switches to deal with the reversing sections.
As you say, Dave, the two big advantages of DCC are sound and multiple loco operation without the need for block wiring. But, you can generate sound without DCC, and if you are only going to operate one locomotive at a time, you don't need DCC.
I do agree with you that DCC would be appropriate, and challenging, if each one of the three grandkids had his or her own hand held throttle. That would also promote team work. But for what Brendan is attempting to accomplish, DC would work just fine.
Hey Ulrich, Thank you. I will look into it.
Hey Dave and Rich, for the sake of simplicity let me just say I don't want to run DC. I knew what I was doing with the DCS layout and it worked, except the engine suddenly stopped for no good reason. That could be a fluke or it could be something else. From my communication with Rick who had the same problem, I'm motivated to try DCC and see if that takes care of it.
I will be taking the locomotive in for repair and have information from Rick to share with the folks at MTH. That worked for him. I hope it works for me.
So here are the 3 burning questions I would love help with:
1. What DCC controller should I get? Rick recommended the NCE PowerCab. You did too Dave. Ulrich recommended the Digitrax Zephyr Xtra.
1A. Do I need to get anything additional with either the NCE PowerCab or a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra - like a pwere supply? If so what?
2. Aside from buying a DCC controller, what else, if anything, do I have to do electrically to the layout? For instance, if I went with either the
2A. I have numerous track feeders that are configured in a star bus pattern. Is it okay to use a star bus with DCC?
2B. My yard is totally isolated electrically from the rest of the layout as are the reversing loops. Am I right in assuming I can use the yard as a programming track?
3. Is there a simple circuit breaker I can put in between my track power supplier and the track? Right now there is one set of wires going to a terminal strip from the DCS Commander. All the track feed go out from that terminal strip. Please be specific.
I admit it. I said there would be 3 questions and I added a 1A, a 2A and a 2B. Now I am blatantly sneaking in another.
3. If I want to add just one more engine controller to a DCC setup, what do I need to get? Specifically, can I just get something in addition to either a NCE PowerCab or a Digitrax Zephyr Xtra? If so, what?
If you want to make an old man happy please answer these questions. I would love to hear from as many people as possible.
One final note - I am taking the locomotive in for repair. If they do that and it fails again, then I will demand a refund. Right now that is not available to me as an option. I can't force the dealer to take back the equipment. I have to give them one chance to make good.
Thank you all in advance.
Brendan Buschi let me just say I don't want to run DC.
let me just say I don't want to run DC.
Hey Rich, you seem to resent the fact that I want to try this. Why? Why not help in the way I ask?
Here are a few things about DC that you have not addressed:
1. If I do a reversing loop, the standard way to reverse the polarity is to reverse the main layout's polarity, not the reversing loop's polarity. Everything on my main layout is on the same electrical circuit except for the reversing loops. If I reversed the polarity on the main layout any DC train on it would start running backwards. If I simply reversed the polarity on the reversing loop, the train on it would start running backwards.
2. I cannot control 2 locomotives on the same electrical circuit separately with DC. I plan on having 2 locomotives on the track at times.
3. I believe in DC you create electrically isolated zones if you want to run multiple locomotives. I have not done that and don't want to. Doing so would be a lot more work and I don't think it's necessary if I try DCC. Doing so would not address what I raised in #2.
If I am wrong about what I have just said, please tell me so. I would greatly appreciate being corrected if I am missing something here.
Please don't pass up an opportunity to show me just how wrong I am.
Virtually all of my experience with HO and all of this began 2 months ago. I want to learn. Correcting my mistakes is helpful to me. Telling me that I should not run DCC if I want to isn't. Just as telling me I should get rid of my DCS equipment immediately after I bought it and have not had a chance to try it out was not helpful.
I'm a guy who wants to build a particular layout - for whatever reason and for whatever purpose. That is what I am seeking help with. Documenting my successes and failures may also be of help to someone else.
It's okay if you don't want to help, but why be so negative?
Brendan, I am not being negative. Just the opposite. Trying to save you money and grief.
You say that you will never grow your layout, so given its current size, DC would suit most modelers just fine.
You say that you cannot imagine more than one grandchild at a time operating the layout. So, DCC is an expensive overkill.
My last reply was responding to your comment that you don't want to run DC, so I simply asked why not, since it is all you really need. That was my entire reply. I fail to see where that is being negative.
You have over 8300 views on this thread. So, it is more than apparent that forum members are following this thread with interest, wondering where you are headed and what you are accomplishing. But very few forum members are actually offering replies.
My reason for offering my replies is to try to steer you in the right direction which is a lot more than the guy at your LHS seems to be doing. If trying to get you to discuss why you want to do certain things but not do other things is offensive or negative to you, then I will stop offering replies. But if you would take the time to consider the two replies that I offered before my last reply, you would hopefully see that I am trying to help you before you waste any more money.
Hey Rich, what I see clearly is that you have not responded in any way to the issues I raised about the problems I thought running DC would cause. Please, I am begging you - just tell me where I am wrong about my concerns in regards to running DC.
I do not want and have not asked you to stop replying.
I have no idea how many people have been following this other than those who have posted here. If there are poeple following this wouldn't technical clarity be helpful to everyone? My mistakes can't help but be helpful to someone else if they are clearly documented.
So please, please tell me what I have missed in regard to the problems I would encounter running DC. I think there are several - you think there are none and that it would save me a lot of money. I got your concern about the money - what about the DC issues?
Thanks again Mel.
Your layout is a work of art and I can fully understand what you say when you say that people are drawn to it for that reason.
My world is all about light. I photograph fine art and make quality prints of it for the artists. I have seen so many paintings and photographs and I can tell you that light is what catches your attention. My ability to replicate it is also what either makes my work valuable to the artist or not. The subject matter is very important too, but it is the light that sets it off. The light in which it is viewed is equally important.
Odor and sound are also very important in terms of attracting or repelling people. I am drawn to the smells of restaurants and bakeries - particularly bakeries - when I am in their vicinity. I will also focus more on something that has a sound I find pleasing.
From what I have seen and read I also believe you are trying to be a good parent. It is hard competing with a world with so many alluring distractions. If I can help my grandkids focus and learn and value work and effort and respect and appreciate life, I will consider myself to be doing a good job as a grandfather. I like to see them laugh too.
This blog has a lot of model railroaders. I always appreciate their work and the discipline involved. I also appreciate how they portray the world on their layouts. I tend to view the poeple here as three dimensional artists working with mixed, motorized media producing work that has a cross generational appeal.
Brendan Buschi2. I cannot control 2 locomotives on the same electrical circuit separately with DC. I plan on having 2 locomotives on the track at times. 3. I believe in DC you create electrically isolated zones if you want to run multiple locomotives. I have not done that and don't want to. Doing so would be a lot more work and I don't think it's necessary if I try DCC. Doing so would not address what I raised in #2.
I have a very small point-to-point layout and have just a couple locos. I chose DCC (NCE PowerCab) to avoid the hassle of wiring blocks, panel switches and trying to predict where they would be needed. I'm an electrical engineer (I'd rather build an auto-reverser).
i don't understand your last statement in (3) - doing what?. To control multiple locos either you need blocks and cab-control to switch the blocks between two throttles or something like DCC.
Maybe the NCE DCC Twin (user manual) plus a couple decoders would be a good option for you.
greg - Philadelphia & Reading / Reading