Dang, Scarpia, I know the jig templates and I still can spot the PC board ties... Nice work!
Bob O.
MILW-RODROoh, ooh, better yet tell that DIY network, they probably would. Heck they had a show that was all about restoring an old Corvette and another one that restored and old Harley. Is DIY network even on cable anymore???
Hey, DIY is still a network, and actually they did have a model RR program that ran a couple of years back. Basically they were building one of the HO Woodland Scenics RR kit I believe. They went through all the steps of risers and mountain through track. It was pretty good. I stumbled on it one Sat night and watched the series.
I would love to try the handlaid track myself, that will be the next layout when I get into a house.
Rob
MILW-RODRBut no matter what I can't do a cost-benefit annalysis. I would loose before I started. I'm starting out small, trying to plan it on a common modular theme bench work so I can add on as time and space permits. So while all this jig buying and everything would be like buying a new pipe to fix a clogged drain, I'm looking at it is not having to call the plumber that much in the future.
But no matter what I can't do a cost-benefit annalysis. I would loose before I started. I'm starting out small, trying to plan it on a common modular theme bench work so I can add on as time and space permits. So while all this jig buying and everything would be like buying a new pipe to fix a clogged drain, I'm looking at it is not having to call the plumber that much in the future.
It's a hard question that only you can answer for your self, whether or not to invest in a Fast Tracks jig. I strongly recommend them not just because of the final product and ultimate cost savings, but also because using them is just *** fun, and more than a little educational. But we've been over those strengths before.
You asked as well about disguising the PC ties. Can you spot them in this picture? The rest are all wood. (HO scale, code 70).
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
MILW-RODR I've been watching Tim Warris' youtube videos. Nn3 is out !!!! Still considering normal N though. When the term handlaid was tossed out there I was thinking like the prototype. Wood ties put in a jig and rail spiked to it. I knew there was something out there floating around with PCB ties, heard the term, but never really thought about what it is. I would be a little worried about the look of PCB ties, but then again I'm sure some plastic ones look worse. I guess a distinguishable wood grain in the ties isn't as big of a deal in something small like N, but HO it seems like it might be more of a deal. One more quick question. I've asked this before about M-E code 40 rail and RP-25 wheels and was told the N scale wheels should work. Is this any different in handlaid? I know I don't have any oversized plastic spike detials to worry about, and I'm also assuming that the solder joints on the inside of the rails could be filed down a bit if clearance was a problem. This is really for N scale info only though. Code 40 rail in HO was something like 40# rail prototype so too small for that.
I've been watching Tim Warris' youtube videos. Nn3 is out !!!! Still considering normal N though. When the term handlaid was tossed out there I was thinking like the prototype. Wood ties put in a jig and rail spiked to it. I knew there was something out there floating around with PCB ties, heard the term, but never really thought about what it is. I would be a little worried about the look of PCB ties, but then again I'm sure some plastic ones look worse. I guess a distinguishable wood grain in the ties isn't as big of a deal in something small like N, but HO it seems like it might be more of a deal.
One more quick question. I've asked this before about M-E code 40 rail and RP-25 wheels and was told the N scale wheels should work. Is this any different in handlaid? I know I don't have any oversized plastic spike detials to worry about, and I'm also assuming that the solder joints on the inside of the rails could be filed down a bit if clearance was a problem. This is really for N scale info only though. Code 40 rail in HO was something like 40# rail prototype so too small for that.
The N scale club at San Diego probably has more experience with N handlaid track than anybody (see http://www.sdmrm.org/pacific_desert.html). They use soldered rail and a mix of PC board and wood ties. In HO scale at least, some grind the copper cladding off the PC board ties except where the rails are soldered for an easier texture and color match with the wood ties.
The Proto87 Stores (http://www.proto87stores.com/) HO scale spikes are quite reasonable for N use, and are used by some for traditonal spiking of rail. The spike heads would probably limit you to the low profile flanges with code 40 rail in N. The spikes work fine with the 0.025" flanges of HO RP25 wheels, and the low profile N flanges are smaller than that.
Glued construction is also a reliable rail fixing technique used in both HO and N. Pliobond and Barge's Cement are the standard adhesives used. The Pliobond is set by running a soldering iron over the top of the rail to warm and set the glue. Barge's Cement uses a tiny brush application of MEK for the final set.
Both glued and soldered construction provide practically the full 0.040" for flanges, which is sufficient for all but the largest pizza cutters.
Looking forward to reports of your progress
Fred W
s51flyer One more thing to note about the jigs. I'm building in N scale too, Code 55, No. 6 switches throughout my layout. I have curved, straight and crossovers to build. Instead of buying 3 jigs, I bought the curved and crossover jig after talking to Tim Warris. You can build straight No.6's in the crossover jig too. Saved over 200+ bucks... I did a cost estimate comparing kit built vs. peco. I have 60 switches to build. At that volume, I think I had the cost, including jigs, down to ~ $15/switch. Not bad. Bob O.
One more thing to note about the jigs. I'm building in N scale too, Code 55, No. 6 switches throughout my layout. I have curved, straight and crossovers to build. Instead of buying 3 jigs, I bought the curved and crossover jig after talking to Tim Warris. You can build straight No.6's in the crossover jig too. Saved over 200+ bucks... I did a cost estimate comparing kit built vs. peco. I have 60 switches to build. At that volume, I think I had the cost, including jigs, down to ~ $15/switch. Not bad.
But no matter what I can't do a cost-benefit annalysis. I would loose before I started. I'm starting out small, trying to plan it on a common modular theme bench work so I can add on as time and space permits. So while all this jig buying and everything would be like buying a new pipe to fix a clogged drain, I'm looking at it is not having to call the plumber that much in the future. Or rather in my case I won't have to drag out a big ole monkey wrench as often. Plumbing was a bad anaolgy, but I accept that not everyone is as knowledgable as I in home repairs. Oh why oh why do I have this incasiable lust for educational television programming.
Speaking of which This Old House could be doing a new project by now. Getting a little tired of watching the same project episodes of that pre-fab barn/house series. Maybe for their next project instead of building and rejeuvenating an old downtown NY brownstone, they should build a train layout. Ooh, ooh, better yet tell that DIY network, they probably would. Heck they had a show that was all about restoring an old Corvette and another one that restored and old Harley. Is DIY network even on cable anymore??? Geez it's been so long. Satellite is the thing where you get those dog bowl things bolted to your roof right
There're two points I like soldering the rails over spiking.
1 The spikes are heavy oversized.
2. If you solder you can adjust the rail by resoldering. If you want to move a spiked rails, the hole from the spike will become bigger and no longer hold this spike.
With soldering you can go down with rail size as much as you want. like the prototype.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
But at any point, I know for sure now that I will be doing hand laying. I looked at prices in the jigs, and it did seem kind of expensive, but I realized something. The turn out jigs are really two jigs in one, a left turn out and a right turn out. And I realized one more thing. Ya use the dang jig more than once!!! I will have plenty of time to do it, I'm in no real rush to get it together. But watching the video's just keeps me wanting to do it more and more. I'm only on part 3, so I need to get back to the videos.
If you're in a hurry, just use the flex track. I'ts easier and faster. If you have time on your hands, low fustration levels, and patience, you can go with handlaid. I would do a few practice "modules" first, just to see if you like it.
Peace
I guess I have to chime in on this thread. I have built 7 HO scale modules for shows all with Atlas code 100 flex and Peco turnouts. This is a club standard.
I love kits and with all the RTR stuff kits are becoming scarce. So I figured I would build my own track. I bought a couple of CVT switch kits and some branch line ties.
I just finished my first CVT #5 with code 70 rail. It turned out great. I did not use the plastic frog that comes in the kit. I used the closure rails and bent wings on them. I also spent a lot of time on getting the frog point right. With out guard rails I dont even get a click in a wheel when it goes over the frog. I cut the insulation gaps with a fine bladed jewlers saw so the frog is only about 3/4 of an inch long. With that short of a frog I see no speacial wiring to a switch and can leave it dead. All thats left is to build a home layout to put it on.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
@WaxonWaxov:
Not stupid at all; you're making plenty of sense. As another poster points out, using the jigs makes it easy to make all sorts of switches *and* the dual gauge templates allow you to do creative dual-gauge things that I don't think you can find commercially, at least not easily... To wit:
http://thomas.tuerke.net/on/mrr/?with=1268896086#msg1268896086
And yes, once you get the basics of switch manufacturing down using a jig, there's no reason why you couldn't go to jig-less. You'll spend a lot more time fussing with a track gauge to get what the template gives you, but in time it'll become "if you can draw it, you can build it."
Enjoy.
I was a complete beginner when starting my layout, and wanted to handlay to try it, and to know I made most of the layout including track. I did use precut and stained ties. I tested out the process by putting down a plywood base 36" long, homosote road bed, ties using a home made jig and tape, and spiked the rail using track guages, after measuring and setting the center line, and finished it with ballast. By the time I finished that 3' most of the spiking and initial problems were put to rest. I moved to the layout and did its first run of rail, and never looked back. When I got to my first turnout, I pulled out the MR track book showing how to build a turnout using the NMRA templates, and having mastered spiking, found the turnout not so tough... trial and erroring my soldering and filing. The 2nd turnout out was faster, and from then on not any problem. I finished an extensive first phase of my layout including a yard, turntable and some main line. I'll use the same method when I go into the next phase. I find the handlaying enjoyable, satisfying, and about as much work as building kits and putting on hills and scenery.
Now, I do like to do detail things, and using my hands, seeing results from starting stuff with bare parts. Maybe that's why it worked out for me and is a key to those who enjoy it, and those who do not. But if the resolve is there, being a beginner at it is no big deal.
Hal
WaxonWaxov MILW-RODRIt started making me think of N scale again.... Yes, come to the Dark Side.... we have cookies.
MILW-RODRIt started making me think of N scale again....
Yes, come to the Dark Side.... we have cookies.
Cookies? I like cookies I also like the bigger scale. But I really do like cookies. d'oh
One of the things I'm interested in scratch building would be extra hard to do in N scale though. Not to mention there's so many more kits available in N scale. Why the heck can't Walthers make the Lakeville Warehouse or Budd's Trucking kits in N?
cuyamadehusman With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch. Dave is so right. The difference in appearance in a layout with handlaid-in-place turnouts versus jig-built is like night and day, in my opinion. But again, I wouldn't recommend handlaid-in-place or jig-built to a complete beginner.
dehusman With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
Dave is so right. The difference in appearance in a layout with handlaid-in-place turnouts versus jig-built is like night and day, in my opinion.
But again, I wouldn't recommend handlaid-in-place or jig-built to a complete beginner.
Then you can buy custom build turnouts from Cream City. These turnouts are like Fast Track turnouts.
WaxonWaxov Visit an HO layout... look at a yard area or switching area... then think to yourself "I could fit FOUR times that much N scale in that space."
Visit an HO layout... look at a yard area or switching area... then think to yourself "I could fit FOUR times that much N scale in that space."
Cut it out!
Ooooooooooh crap, wud I start . I didn't realize there was so many N scalers hand laying. Now I wish I would have shut my mouth. It started making me think of N scale again, and now I don't know what the heck I want. Well, besides lokes, I know what lokes I want to run. I need to start this on another post.
WaxonWaxovBy the way.... WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!
By the way.... WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!
needs more rivets.
ScarpiaNote that if you purchase a crossover jig, you can use it to make single turnouts as well which helps offset the investment.
Yea, I wish they made more N/Nn3 dual gauge jigs than they do .
Between Tim Warris' video and actually purchasing two jigs, one for straight HO #8's and the other for #6 double-sliips, I learned how to make turnouts in a way that would have required one-on-one tutelage with someone nearby. I am a lone wolf whose only MRR friend, my decoder and engine guy, lives 90 minutes hi-speed driving away. So, for whatever I paid four years ago to learn using Fast Tracks' method, I feel it was money well spent.
After I had made six #8's and two DS's, I reached a point where I "knew" I could make any special items that I needed, and sure enough, I had to build two in situ on the layout. They both work well, even if they aren't exactly pretty by jig standards.
-Crandell
My experience has been the direct opposite of dehusman's opinion, in that the use of the jigs hasn't limited my ability to learn how to hand lay turnouts from scratch, indeed it's just the opposite. Now I have an excellent working knowledge of how they work, and perhaps more importantly how they're supposed to.
I'll be attempting a couple of curved turnouts in the near future, turnouts for which I don't have the appropriate jig, and I'm about 95% confident that I can pull it off. I doubt I would have attempted this without the jig assembly experience behind me. The fact with the jigs that I was able to produce a working, quality turnout the very first time plays a huge role encouraging further experimentation with special track work.
I do think the Fast Tracks Jigs are well worth the cost. Next month, some folks will be paying a fair amount of cash to attend the NMRA conference to learn methods and techniques (among other things, of course). If you consider it along that vein, the Fast Track set represented to me a self instruction class on track work - with the added benefit of having the jigs for future use.
Note that if you purchase a crossover jig, you can use it to make single turnouts as well which helps offset the investment.
dehusmanIf you spend the money on Fast track jigs you are trading money for experience and time. You can do the same thing. the exact same thing, without the jigs, it just takes time to practice the techniques. The upside of not using the jigs is you learn HOW to build switch so you are way more versitile. With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
I hear what you're saying and I respect your extensive experience.
I am at the beginning of building an N Scale layout representing a town where the main line (standard gauge) ends and a narrow gauge line starts. (bring the coal and timber from the hills into town for processing, haul sorted coal, wood chips, lumber, etc to the rest of the world)
FastTracks only makes one N/Nn3 dual jig: #6 turnout. However, this turnout can be used to make #6 dual, #6 standard, #6 narrow, and various combinations.
I figured with that jug I could make most of the turnouts I would need and would be enough to get my feet wet so I might try making other turnouts (like #4 narrow gaue) using just a paper template, etc.
Does that make sense or am I being stupid?
(Keep in my the fact that dual gauge commerical turnouts are quite expensive)
I really have to admit that handlaying track is certainly fascinating and it may even separate the men from the boys in our hobby, but for me it will remain a dream. First of all my soldering ability is not what it should be, second, I could not do it without a jig like Fast Track offers, which makes it, third, too expensive, as my "dream layout" has only 8 turnouts, but in two different sizes! And if you add all that detail, like tie plates etc. it is a heck of a job to do, especially when your hands are getting shakey ..
My first N-Scale layout begun back in 1982 was done using Atlas Code 80 track. For my second layout I decided to go with Code 55 and with that in mind I layed in a bundle of rail--99 feet--from Rail Craft and a couple of thousand ties from somebody or another. About 24 or 25 feet into my hand laying experience I ran out of gas and went to Code 55 flex--from the same manufacturer; Rail Craft was the only outfit marketing Code 55 in those distant days of yesteryear. When I gave up on handlaying track I still had about 17 lengths of rail left which has served me well as I handlay my switches.
Handlaid track is exquisite but it is also tedious and I'll stick with flextrack.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Hi from Belgium,
Say it is easy , certainly not but it's worth the effort to handlay track.
I use as say in some reply of this topic Fastrack jig to handlay my turnouts in Nscale, full track is Peco code 55 or Micro engenering code 55 flextrack.
I use handlay turnout for two reasons, first apparence, they look great, better than any commercially avaible turnout and the most important for me, they offer the best running qualities I have found for N scale.
Yes it's time consumming and if you don't need a lot of turnout take prefabricated ones.
Of course in quantities they are very cheap at least.
With a little paractice you can make a turnout using a fastrack jig in a average of 40minutes......so you can estimate where you are going to do a whole yard with plenty of turnout.
So if you want good looking turnout, good looking track and "Rolls Royce" running qualities handlay your track and turnouts.
Good luck
Fastrack at www.handlaidtrack.com
Marc
Layout Design GalleryLayout Design Special Interest Group
I guess I'll swim against the tide. I wouldn't recommend handlaid track for an absolute beginner as the OP indicates he is. There are lots of different skills to learn in the hoby and quite few steps to get to a first operating layout.
Beginning with quality pre-fab turnouts and flextrack is a very good way to get the mainline and a few spurs in and operating, which will provide experience and reduce the MTTF (Mean Time to Fun). At that point, experimenting with handlaid for some additional spurs or a branchline won't stand in the way of learning the other facets of the hobby and having some enjoyment of running trains, which is very good for motivating one to work on the layout.
ByronModel RR Blog Layout Design Gallery
I learned to handlay track many moons ago (about 4 decades) at the Schyulkill Valley Model Railroad Club in Phoenixville. PA. The late Paul Jensen taught me. Since that time I have built my switches in just about every method out there (except glueing). I have built dozens of turnouts on PC board ties, using paper patterns instead of Fast Track jigs (virtually every turnout in the yard of the original Houston Society of Model Engineers layout in Manvel, TX was built by that method), hinged points, solid throwbar, hinged throwbar. I have read articles by a dozen different modelers, seen examples of handlaid track by dozens more and build my switches a little bit different than all of them.
So my advice is try as many methods as you can and find the one you like, there are literlaly dozens of ways to buld a switch and suprise, all of them work, just find the one that you like. If you spend the money on Fast track jigs you are trading money for experience and time. You can do the same thing. the exact same thing, without the jigs, it just takes time to practice the techniques. The upside of not using the jigs is you learn HOW to build switch so you are way more versitile. With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
With most craftsman activities in model railroading, accept that you will have some bad products along the way. Be willing to practice until you get it right. I experimented with using half of a plastic junction box as a bracket for a switch throw toggle. It turned out to be too flexible. So I am converting 37 switches to a metal bracket for better reliability. But the other 4 or 5 things I invented while playing with the plastic brackets will carry through. This is about the 10th variation of switch control I've used over the last 20 years. Don't be afraid to experiment. Don't be afraid to try new techniques. Don't be afraid to combine various techniques into something that works for you.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Something that really makes handlaid track worthwhile for me - and I came across it by accident when I jumped from track laying with track only partially complete to scenery building.
It's the feeling of building a railroad into the wilderness. And it comes from sequencing the layout construction.
First step is to put the Homasote roadbed where I want the track to go. Then put in some very simple painted terrain, perhaps with some ground cover and a few trees. But I keep the trees at least 6" away from the track at this point to avoid messing them with my clumsiness. Now the Homasote - especially if painted an earth color - looks like a graded roadbed in the wild.
Next step is to glue ties and ballast in place extending from the last rail laid. Now I have both simulated and actually prepared for the placement of the rails. The terrrain gives the feeling of actually building into the outback. The ties look like they were laid into the ballast. A railroad is being built. Take pictures of the first 2 steps for memories.
Final step is to actually place and spike rail. Now I have completed my railway, and can start building the town.
Pictures to be shared as I start my new layout.
just a thought