In another post there was talk, or I should say a suggestion made, to go with hand laid track. It was stated as not as difficult as it seemed, and in some factors less costly. As a beginer in all this I'm looking at every option available. Would it be a viable option for me to look into, cost and experience wise? Should I just stick with flex track?
Having hand-laid a few hundred yards of 'plain Jane' track and a LOT of specialwork, I would humbly suggest that, unless you are into Proto 87 complete with tie plates and anticreepers, you will get better looking results faster and with less heartburn by laying flex track. Second choice is to use pre-molded detailed tie strip. Unless you are modeling pre-WWI or a backwoods logger, handlaid rail on wood ties doesn't look as realistic as the machine-made product. Also, if, like mine, your prototype is using concrete ties, your only reasonable route is flex.
Handlaid specialwork, OTOH, is one place where the time/cost tradeoff is reasonable - especially if you want a puzzle palace of double slips and three way switches on curves. If you lay your own, YOU set the track geometry. Also, your hand-laid product is subject to immediate quality verification and can be tweaked or completely rebuilt at very little cost.
These days I use flex for all my 'plain Jane' track, reserving my handlaying efforts for specialwork.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
tomikawaTT Having hand-laid a few hundred yards of 'plain Jane' track and a LOT of specialwork, I would humbly suggest that, unless you are into Proto 87 complete with tie plates and anticreepers, you will get better looking results faster and with less heartburn by laying flex track. Second choice is to use pre-molded detailed tie strip. Unless you are modeling pre-WWI or a backwoods logger, handlaid rail on wood ties doesn't look as realistic as the machine-made product. Also, if, like mine, your prototype is using concrete ties, your only reasonable route is flex.
When I operate, I don't notice the existence or lack of spike and tie-plate detail. In fact, if I choose to look for it, some manufacturers' cast detail is so gross it would look more realistic without it.
Mark
I am currently on my second "test" layout, and I'm handlaying the rail with Fast Tracks turnouts. Here is a shot of where I'm at currently
So my following comments are based on my experience, a lot of folks I'm sure have more when it comes to this than me.
Is it that much less expensive? No. Not really, not once you buy the things you need, such as tools, nails, rail, ties, guages, etc.
Does it look better? I think yes. Not as much as scale perfect, CVP code 87 does, but I think it looks better than others, such Atlas flex track. Part of the visual appeal is the great flexibility you have when it comes to actually laying the track.
Does it take tons of time? Yes. There are a lot of hours in the above picture. If you don't have a lot of patience, or you just want to get some trains running, than this may not be the way for you.
Would I do it again when I'm done with this test section? Absolutely.
For the first time in the hobby I have felt really in control as I lay the track down. I have found the experience has enabled me to be more knowledgeable (by leaps and bounds) about track work, what goes wrong, and how to fix it and better yet, avoid it from the onset. It has removed any "fear" factor I have had about problems, instead of worrying about "ruining" a piece of flex, its nothing to rip out a section and replace if needed.
I've also found it easier to work on curves with hand laid track over flex, as I could never (and I know other people are wildly successful with this) get flex track perfectly joined on curves, the majority of the reason being that the flex track retains its shape memory, and wants to straighten. That seems to be amplified with both pieces of rail on the flex track.
With hand laid track, on the other hand, you can bend each rail to match (roughly) the curve radius before you spike it, and you're not fighting against the shape memory. I find for myself this to be very much preferable.
It may not be for everyone, and I'm sure there will be numerous arguments from knowledgeable people against it, but I have found the process very satisfying, and the results well worth the time and effort.
Feel free to take a look at my site, you can find more pictures of this, under the Test Layout (Active) menu option.
I'm trying to model 1956, not live in it.
tomikawaTT Having hand-laid a few hundred yards of 'plain Jane' track and a LOT of specialwork, I would humbly suggest that, unless you are into Proto 87 complete with tie plates and anticreepers, you will get better looking results faster and with less heartburn by laying flex track. Second choice is to use pre-molded detailed tie strip. Unless you are modeling pre-WWI or a backwoods logger, handlaid rail on wood ties doesn't look as realistic as the machine-made product. Also, if, like mine, your prototype is using concrete ties, your only reasonable route is flex. Handlaid specialwork, OTOH, is one place where the time/cost tradeoff is reasonable - especially if you want a puzzle palace of double slips and three way switches on curves. If you lay your own, YOU set the track geometry. Also, your hand-laid product is subject to immediate quality verification and can be tweaked or completely rebuilt at very little cost. These days I use flex for all my 'plain Jane' track, reserving my handlaying efforts for specialwork. Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I agree with Chuck on all points. My only excursion into handlaid track was several years ago when good looking flex track in several sizes of rail was not yet readily available.
The real value of handlaid track, for me at least, is the ability to make it conform to any special needs you may have, especially turnouts and crossings.
Of course, there is also a certain amount of personal satisfaction in being able to say "I did it and it works."
John Timm
I think everyone should (I wince when I use that word...should...but bear with me..) try at least some handlaying. Not maybe now, maybe not tomorrow, but it really is a wonderful way to appreciate how turnouts can be made to work marvellously, for an example.
If we use the three-foot rule, I don't think, as Mark said, that all the detail matters one whit. If it matters that much to the user, then I guess it has to be there. Pay in time or pay in money, or both. For me, even in photography, much of the detail just isn't there. If it should be there, and it would be a personal requirement, or demanded if in competition, that would be another matter.
What I am saying is that, as Chuck has intimated, good old flextrack is not to be discounted. It has tie detail with spike heads, even if they are larger than they should be. It is fast and works well. But I would urge everyone to try their hand at making at least one custom turnout someplace to get some personal satisfaction. You won't regret it.
One last point and I'll shut up...experience has little to do with it. Assuming you have a decent plan for your track system, every one of us had to take up the first length of raw rail and prebend it a bit, and then lay it along a centreline drawn lightly on a length of hand-cut and hand-placed ties. We learned as we went along. We boobed, and then adjusted. Next crack at it, we were successful. Before we knew it we were actually having fun, the gauging was good, it looked good, and it ran well when we tried it.
So can any one of us. Start...
-Crandell
I plan to have at least some handlaid track. The extra time it takes doesn't bother me. As for the cost factor I was mostly concerned with actual track costs, like rails, spikes, ties etc. not including tools. After all, I would only have to buy the tools once so the cost of tools, gauges, jigs etc would get spread out in a cost analysis. I will probably start off with the hand laying, if I like it enough I can always plan on more track being handlaid. I think I would buy pre cut ties though, I already do some pretty repetative mind-numbing tasks at my job, like spending 8 hours glueing flaps on boxes shut. Or back in the day spending 12 hours taking TP out of bad packaging and putting back onto the conveyor for the packaging machine. Holy crap talk about doing something you could train a monkey to do. Once the track and power is up and running I would relax a bit and start taking my time on everything else. It would be nice though to have something up and running tomorrow, don't get me wrong. But the one train I really really really really really really really really really want at the LTS is $280 DCC w/sound equiped. If I start saving now I might be able to buy it this winter, which I won't be able to because most likely it will be like this past winter and I will be laid off again. Just for the curious its Wisconsin Central GP30 #715, the very one at the National Railroad Museum, which I have fell in love with. I don't know why, I mean they have a GM Aero train there for pete's sake, but I just love them GP30's.
I've got some longer observations on handlaying up on my blog www.peebs.org . But in short, I'd say the following points might help you make a decision:
As the others have said, hand laying track is a wonderful experience that I think every model railroader should have. I've hand laid miles of it. For the miles, I also had access to a Kadee spiker gun (no longer available). Made the work go much quicker (10x maybe).
I love hand laying track but I don't have the time. I will hand build a turnout and connect it to a 100 foot run of flex track. Of course, I also don't seem to have the problems with flex track joints on curves that other people have.
I will say that in my experience bad hand laid track is much worse than bad sectional track.
OFF Topic
Peebs, I was looking on your blog, and saw you were a fellow Mac user. The Fast Track CD is designed for Windowz, but if you load in your Mac, open it in Finder. The templates are viewable and printable in Preview, and for the videos, they are nicely labled in their file names, and they will open with the VLC player, an open source, region free product I recommend for stuff like this.
ON Topic -
Please share your experiences if you decide to hand lay some of your track. I'm constantly surprised at how different folks identify with different aspects of the process.
Something that really makes handlaid track worthwhile for me - and I came across it by accident when I jumped from track laying with track only partially complete to scenery building.
It's the feeling of building a railroad into the wilderness. And it comes from sequencing the layout construction.
First step is to put the Homasote roadbed where I want the track to go. Then put in some very simple painted terrain, perhaps with some ground cover and a few trees. But I keep the trees at least 6" away from the track at this point to avoid messing them with my clumsiness. Now the Homasote - especially if painted an earth color - looks like a graded roadbed in the wild.
Next step is to glue ties and ballast in place extending from the last rail laid. Now I have both simulated and actually prepared for the placement of the rails. The terrrain gives the feeling of actually building into the outback. The ties look like they were laid into the ballast. A railroad is being built. Take pictures of the first 2 steps for memories.
Final step is to actually place and spike rail. Now I have completed my railway, and can start building the town.
Pictures to be shared as I start my new layout.
just a thought
Fred W
I learned to handlay track many moons ago (about 4 decades) at the Schyulkill Valley Model Railroad Club in Phoenixville. PA. The late Paul Jensen taught me. Since that time I have built my switches in just about every method out there (except glueing). I have built dozens of turnouts on PC board ties, using paper patterns instead of Fast Track jigs (virtually every turnout in the yard of the original Houston Society of Model Engineers layout in Manvel, TX was built by that method), hinged points, solid throwbar, hinged throwbar. I have read articles by a dozen different modelers, seen examples of handlaid track by dozens more and build my switches a little bit different than all of them.
So my advice is try as many methods as you can and find the one you like, there are literlaly dozens of ways to buld a switch and suprise, all of them work, just find the one that you like. If you spend the money on Fast track jigs you are trading money for experience and time. You can do the same thing. the exact same thing, without the jigs, it just takes time to practice the techniques. The upside of not using the jigs is you learn HOW to build switch so you are way more versitile. With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
With most craftsman activities in model railroading, accept that you will have some bad products along the way. Be willing to practice until you get it right. I experimented with using half of a plastic junction box as a bracket for a switch throw toggle. It turned out to be too flexible. So I am converting 37 switches to a metal bracket for better reliability. But the other 4 or 5 things I invented while playing with the plastic brackets will carry through. This is about the 10th variation of switch control I've used over the last 20 years. Don't be afraid to experiment. Don't be afraid to try new techniques. Don't be afraid to combine various techniques into something that works for you.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I guess I'll swim against the tide. I wouldn't recommend handlaid track for an absolute beginner as the OP indicates he is. There are lots of different skills to learn in the hoby and quite few steps to get to a first operating layout.
Beginning with quality pre-fab turnouts and flextrack is a very good way to get the mainline and a few spurs in and operating, which will provide experience and reduce the MTTF (Mean Time to Fun). At that point, experimenting with handlaid for some additional spurs or a branchline won't stand in the way of learning the other facets of the hobby and having some enjoyment of running trains, which is very good for motivating one to work on the layout.
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dehusman With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
Dave is so right. The difference in appearance in a layout with handlaid-in-place turnouts versus jig-built is like night and day, in my opinion.
But again, I wouldn't recommend handlaid-in-place or jig-built to a complete beginner.
Hi from Belgium,
Say it is easy , certainly not but it's worth the effort to handlay track.
I use as say in some reply of this topic Fastrack jig to handlay my turnouts in Nscale, full track is Peco code 55 or Micro engenering code 55 flextrack.
I use handlay turnout for two reasons, first apparence, they look great, better than any commercially avaible turnout and the most important for me, they offer the best running qualities I have found for N scale.
Yes it's time consumming and if you don't need a lot of turnout take prefabricated ones.
Of course in quantities they are very cheap at least.
With a little paractice you can make a turnout using a fastrack jig in a average of 40minutes......so you can estimate where you are going to do a whole yard with plenty of turnout.
So if you want good looking turnout, good looking track and "Rolls Royce" running qualities handlay your track and turnouts.
Good luck
Fastrack at www.handlaidtrack.com
Marc
My first N-Scale layout begun back in 1982 was done using Atlas Code 80 track. For my second layout I decided to go with Code 55 and with that in mind I layed in a bundle of rail--99 feet--from Rail Craft and a couple of thousand ties from somebody or another. About 24 or 25 feet into my hand laying experience I ran out of gas and went to Code 55 flex--from the same manufacturer; Rail Craft was the only outfit marketing Code 55 in those distant days of yesteryear. When I gave up on handlaying track I still had about 17 lengths of rail left which has served me well as I handlay my switches.
Handlaid track is exquisite but it is also tedious and I'll stick with flextrack.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I really have to admit that handlaying track is certainly fascinating and it may even separate the men from the boys in our hobby, but for me it will remain a dream. First of all my soldering ability is not what it should be, second, I could not do it without a jig like Fast Track offers, which makes it, third, too expensive, as my "dream layout" has only 8 turnouts, but in two different sizes! And if you add all that detail, like tie plates etc. it is a heck of a job to do, especially when your hands are getting shakey ..
dehusmanIf you spend the money on Fast track jigs you are trading money for experience and time. You can do the same thing. the exact same thing, without the jigs, it just takes time to practice the techniques. The upside of not using the jigs is you learn HOW to build switch so you are way more versitile. With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch.
I hear what you're saying and I respect your extensive experience.
I am at the beginning of building an N Scale layout representing a town where the main line (standard gauge) ends and a narrow gauge line starts. (bring the coal and timber from the hills into town for processing, haul sorted coal, wood chips, lumber, etc to the rest of the world)
FastTracks only makes one N/Nn3 dual jig: #6 turnout. However, this turnout can be used to make #6 dual, #6 standard, #6 narrow, and various combinations.
I figured with that jug I could make most of the turnouts I would need and would be enough to get my feet wet so I might try making other turnouts (like #4 narrow gaue) using just a paper template, etc.
Does that make sense or am I being stupid?
(Keep in my the fact that dual gauge commerical turnouts are quite expensive)
My experience has been the direct opposite of dehusman's opinion, in that the use of the jigs hasn't limited my ability to learn how to hand lay turnouts from scratch, indeed it's just the opposite. Now I have an excellent working knowledge of how they work, and perhaps more importantly how they're supposed to.
I'll be attempting a couple of curved turnouts in the near future, turnouts for which I don't have the appropriate jig, and I'm about 95% confident that I can pull it off. I doubt I would have attempted this without the jig assembly experience behind me. The fact with the jigs that I was able to produce a working, quality turnout the very first time plays a huge role encouraging further experimentation with special track work.
I do think the Fast Tracks Jigs are well worth the cost. Next month, some folks will be paying a fair amount of cash to attend the NMRA conference to learn methods and techniques (among other things, of course). If you consider it along that vein, the Fast Track set represented to me a self instruction class on track work - with the added benefit of having the jigs for future use.
Note that if you purchase a crossover jig, you can use it to make single turnouts as well which helps offset the investment.
Between Tim Warris' video and actually purchasing two jigs, one for straight HO #8's and the other for #6 double-sliips, I learned how to make turnouts in a way that would have required one-on-one tutelage with someone nearby. I am a lone wolf whose only MRR friend, my decoder and engine guy, lives 90 minutes hi-speed driving away. So, for whatever I paid four years ago to learn using Fast Tracks' method, I feel it was money well spent.
After I had made six #8's and two DS's, I reached a point where I "knew" I could make any special items that I needed, and sure enough, I had to build two in situ on the layout. They both work well, even if they aren't exactly pretty by jig standards.
ScarpiaNote that if you purchase a crossover jig, you can use it to make single turnouts as well which helps offset the investment.
Yea, I wish they made more N/Nn3 dual gauge jigs than they do .
By the way.... WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!
WaxonWaxovBy the way.... WAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!!!
needs more rivets.
Ooooooooooh crap, wud I start . I didn't realize there was so many N scalers hand laying. Now I wish I would have shut my mouth. It started making me think of N scale again, and now I don't know what the heck I want. Well, besides lokes, I know what lokes I want to run. I need to start this on another post.
MILW-RODRIt started making me think of N scale again....
Yes, come to the Dark Side.... we have cookies.
Visit an HO layout... look at a yard area or switching area... then think to yourself "I could fit FOUR times that much N scale in that space."
WaxonWaxov Visit an HO layout... look at a yard area or switching area... then think to yourself "I could fit FOUR times that much N scale in that space."
Cut it out!
cuyamadehusman With jigs you can assemble one type of switch. Without the jigs you learn to build ANY switch. Dave is so right. The difference in appearance in a layout with handlaid-in-place turnouts versus jig-built is like night and day, in my opinion. But again, I wouldn't recommend handlaid-in-place or jig-built to a complete beginner.
Then you can buy custom build turnouts from Cream City. These turnouts are like Fast Track turnouts.
Wolfgang
Pueblo & Salt Lake RR
Come to us http://www.westportterminal.de my videos my blog
WaxonWaxov MILW-RODRIt started making me think of N scale again.... Yes, come to the Dark Side.... we have cookies.
Cookies? I like cookies I also like the bigger scale. But I really do like cookies. d'oh
One of the things I'm interested in scratch building would be extra hard to do in N scale though. Not to mention there's so many more kits available in N scale. Why the heck can't Walthers make the Lakeville Warehouse or Budd's Trucking kits in N?
I was a complete beginner when starting my layout, and wanted to handlay to try it, and to know I made most of the layout including track. I did use precut and stained ties. I tested out the process by putting down a plywood base 36" long, homosote road bed, ties using a home made jig and tape, and spiked the rail using track guages, after measuring and setting the center line, and finished it with ballast. By the time I finished that 3' most of the spiking and initial problems were put to rest. I moved to the layout and did its first run of rail, and never looked back. When I got to my first turnout, I pulled out the MR track book showing how to build a turnout using the NMRA templates, and having mastered spiking, found the turnout not so tough... trial and erroring my soldering and filing. The 2nd turnout out was faster, and from then on not any problem. I finished an extensive first phase of my layout including a yard, turntable and some main line. I'll use the same method when I go into the next phase. I find the handlaying enjoyable, satisfying, and about as much work as building kits and putting on hills and scenery.
Now, I do like to do detail things, and using my hands, seeing results from starting stuff with bare parts. Maybe that's why it worked out for me and is a key to those who enjoy it, and those who do not. But if the resolve is there, being a beginner at it is no big deal.
Hal
@WaxonWaxov:
Not stupid at all; you're making plenty of sense. As another poster points out, using the jigs makes it easy to make all sorts of switches *and* the dual gauge templates allow you to do creative dual-gauge things that I don't think you can find commercially, at least not easily... To wit:
http://thomas.tuerke.net/on/mrr/?with=1268896086#msg1268896086
And yes, once you get the basics of switch manufacturing down using a jig, there's no reason why you couldn't go to jig-less. You'll spend a lot more time fussing with a track gauge to get what the template gives you, but in time it'll become "if you can draw it, you can build it."
Enjoy.
I guess I have to chime in on this thread. I have built 7 HO scale modules for shows all with Atlas code 100 flex and Peco turnouts. This is a club standard.
I love kits and with all the RTR stuff kits are becoming scarce. So I figured I would build my own track. I bought a couple of CVT switch kits and some branch line ties.
I just finished my first CVT #5 with code 70 rail. It turned out great. I did not use the plastic frog that comes in the kit. I used the closure rails and bent wings on them. I also spent a lot of time on getting the frog point right. With out guard rails I dont even get a click in a wheel when it goes over the frog. I cut the insulation gaps with a fine bladed jewlers saw so the frog is only about 3/4 of an inch long. With that short of a frog I see no speacial wiring to a switch and can leave it dead. All thats left is to build a home layout to put it on.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!