[ POLL ] Which front-end design of EMD E series do you prefer?

[Penny Trains]

Wins the look-alike competition:

[Firelock76]

Miningman

Û

More faces for front end consideration

 

 

You know, there's damn few steam locomotives I don't love the look of, but WHAT is that green with yellow stripes THING in the third picture?

It looks like a giantic, uh, well this site is supposed to be "family friendly" so you'll have to use your imaginations as to what I think it looks like.

Someone had to work damn hard to build a steam engine that makes an ordinary diesel look good!

And oh, those pesky Daleks!  Is there no end to them?

[Miningman]

Someone out there will know what that God-awful thing is. I'm just grateful it doesn't say Pennsylvannia after all it is an Atlantic ( I think) and it just might be something they could come up with on a bad day.

Well at least you can access the moving stuff. Even the skyline casing looks like a bunch of junk. 

[SD70Dude]

It's Belgian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SNCB_Type_12

[Miningman]

How on earth was that based on the Canadian Pacific Jubillees?

3003 taking water on the shop track at the Glen. Note Delaware & Hudson tender at far right. 

Another view of 3003 on the Glen shop track. Four photographs mid-1950's

[Jones1945]

haha, I have the same feeling 

Firelock76

You know, there's damn few steam locomotives I don't love the look of, but WHAT is that green with yellow stripes THING in the third picture?

It looks like a giantic, uh, well this site is supposed to be "family friendly" so you'll have to use your imaginations as to what I think it looks like.

Someone had to work damn hard to build a steam engine that makes an ordinary diesel look good!

And oh, those pesky Daleks!  Is there no end to them?

Haha, I have the same feeling when I looking at some if not many streamlined train, especially Steam engine. The reason the front end or the whole body of them always made people think about human organs and I probably know which organ people would imagine when looking at a  NMBS/SNCB Type 12 4-4-2 steam locomotives. Many people would know the reason behind it, which is related to the some principles of aerodynamic and physiological structure of human.

Interestingly, in Hagley's online archive, there was a photo of streamlined train looks like a SNCB Type 12 4-4-2, which was a 221 PLM entre 1 et 20 (4-4-2) in the "Pennsylvania Railroad negatives" section. I suspect PRR once studied the designs of Streamliner in Europe for reference in mid-30s, this reminds me that Overmod stated that PRR thought Atlantic Class was their preferred wheel arrangement for express locomotive, thus the duplex design which was supposed to replace K4s was like "two Atlantic Class under one boiler".

 

Miningman

How on earth was that based on the Canadian Pacific Jubillees?

I guess the author was trying to say that it was inspired by the decidion to streamlining a 4-4-2 but not the design of the streamlined shrouding of the Jubillees. Canadian Pacific Jubillees looks much better than many other streamliner power by steam!

[daveklepper]

I agree .  But a Royal Hudson looks better to me than a Jubalee.  In fact, now that I think of it, a Royal Hudson for me is tied with a New Haven I-5. with only the Daylight and J and T-1 really better because they are not "stubby."

[Jones1945]

daveklepper

I agree .  But a Royal Hudson looks better to me than a Jubalee.  In fact, now that I think of it, a Royal Hudson for me is tied with a New Haven I-5. with only the Daylight and J and T-1 really better because they are not "stubby." 

CNR Jubilee is like a baby version of Royal Hudson for me, I fully understand that why the Royal Hudson is so popular among railfans from Canada and the States since it looked as great or even better than the Jubilee and it was much larger and powerful. Steam engine which was streamlined when built like New Haven I-5, CNR's Jubilee and Royal Hudson as well as N&W J and  PRR T1 you mentioned shared the same advantage of the train's overall design of appearance and proportions, since the other trains like Loewy’s PRR K4s had to cover the original engine’s body with additional metal plates with space between the streamline shrouding and the body, which made the engine looked a bit "stubby". 

One thing I like on New Haven I-5 and Royal Hudson of CNR was the streamlining of the smoke box were not too exaggerated or out of proportion, they both looked sharp and smart. They also reminded me the smoke box shrouding of Lackawanna’s Hudson 4-6-4 #1940 (but the decorative elements on its lower front end was too repetitive and uncreative). My favorite PRR S1 had a huge bullet nose, but it fitted the overall design. Just my two cents.  

[Jones1945]

Classic Trains provided some very nice old articles about B&O's and its crack trains, many nice photos of early EMC, EMD diesel in these articles, check it out if you like:

http://ctr.trains.com/railroad-reference/great-passenger-trains/2013/03/bo-articles

[Miningman]

One for Jones....and a Niagara sneaks in the centre of the shot!

[Firelock76]

It's Belgian???

Listen, I know from first-hand experience the Belgians make some gorgeous firearms, but what were they thinking with that, that, thing...

There's some Liege master gunsmiths who probably consider that locomotive a national disgrace, to say nothing of the ghosts of the old Flemish Masters.

Face it, the only guys who got streamlining right were Otto Kuhler, Henry Dreyfuss, Capitaine Raymond Lowey, Ray Patten, and Harley Earle!  No-one else should even have tried! 

[Jones1945]

Miningman

One for Jones....and a Niagara sneaks in the centre of the shot!

Thanks a lot, Miningman! Some of the most powerful and fastest passenger locomotives all in one picture.  I have this photo in one of my books but it's the thought that counts!  In the pic, it was #5535 hauling the Pennsylvanian and #5526 with the Trail Blazer behind. This photo was taken at Englewood on October 6, 1946. Note there is a metal plate covering the pipes above the rear cylinder in the photo which was part of the streamlining. This is a very interesting capture; looks like two T1s wanna squash the Niagara. 

 

It is still hard to believe that not more than one year after this photo was taken, there was a memo from the PRR managerment suggest about using T1 on freight service! I watched a video which was recorded inside a PRR's train showing the famous race between two Penny and NYC at 50-60 mph; it was a very short clip showing a NYC Niagara was "tracing" the cameraman's train at high speed; I am still searching for the link of it. .

 

 

6110 with modified lower front end. Note something special on the rear drivers?

[Jones1945]

Firelock76

It's Belgian???

Listen, I know from first-hand experience the Belgians make some gorgeous firearms, but what were they thinking with that, that, thing...

There's some Liege master gunsmiths who probably consider that locomotive a national disgrace, to say nothing of the ghosts of the old Flemish Masters.

Face it, the only guys who got streamlining right were Otto Kuhler, Henry Dreyfuss, Capitaine Raymond Lowey, Ray Patten, and Harley Earle!  No-one else should even have tried! 

Agree. I think it is worth mention that although Brooks Stevens only designed the Olympian Hiawatha including The Skytop Lounges for MILW but it was a timeless classic (imo). By the way, some but not many streamlined steam locomitve in UK looked decent as well.

Note the color tempture of fluorescent lights was warm white (2700K) but during one of its reburishment recently it was wrongly installed with high color tempture fluorescent lights (6000K or above). 

[Jones1945]

The Milwaukee Road E6's livery from different era, still looks much better than many RR's livery nowadays. 

[Overmod]

Firelock76

Face it, the only guys who got streamlining right were Otto Kuhler, Henry Dreyfuss, Capitaine Raymond Loewy, Ray Patten, and Harley Earl! No-one else should even have tried!

Not even Olive Dennis, Wayne?

And I would submit Elwood Engel beat the last one all hollow.  (And improved matters greatly over that master of the pointlessly baroque, Exner, in the process...)

I would also submit that IF anyone had requested Syd Mead to do an actual locomotive, the result would have been highly interesting... even if you didn't like it.

[BaltACD]

Overmod

 

Firelock76

Face it, the only guys who got streamlining right were Otto Kuhler, Henry Dreyfuss, Capitaine Raymond Loewy, Ray Patten, and Harley Earl! No-one else should even have tried! 

Not even Olive Dennis, Wayne?

Olive beat them hands down!

[Jones1945]

I think this is a very good article about Olive Dennis:

The ‘Lady Engineer’ Who Took the Pain Out of the Train

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/olive-dennis-train-comfort-engineer

 

(Reload the page if advertisement pop up halfway when you reading the article)

 

 

[Overmod]

I am tempted to mention that Patten (who did the PA/FA styling) was famous for this

which ought to be compared to this

(there are much better ones out there but they seem to be on eBay, from whence they would disappear over time, or protected against hotlinking)

I know which of these is more graceful, and it's interesting that Kuhler's subsequent nose for Alco wasn't nearly as good as Patten's... it should have been better.

 

 

[Firelock76]

Of course Olive Dennis!  Shame on me for not remembering!

Then again, some days I can't remember if I "...went to the bathroom..." first thing in the morning.  I'm sure I did, but...

[Miningman]

At our age it's twice in the middle of the night and then just before the alarm goes and then JUST as you pour a coffee, sit down, light a smoke and open Classic to see the Photo of the Day...all is now right with the world, then Wham-o, the moment is ruined. 

[Jones1945]

Overmod

I am tempted to mention that Patten (who did the PA/FA styling) was famous for this

which ought to be compared to this

(there are much better ones out there but they seem to be on eBay, from whence they would disappear over time, or protected against hotlinking)

I know which of these is more graceful, and it's interesting that Kuhler's subsequent nose for Alco wasn't nearly as good as Patten's... it should have been better. 

Did Milwaukee Road made those Coffee Mugs in 40s/50s? I don't quite understand. 

 

Firelock76

Of course Olive Dennis!  Shame on me for not remembering!

No worries Firelock. For the Fallen Flags in Northeast, B&O was a bit underated. I think their dining cars were far more superior to Pennsy form inside to outside, including the Broadway (Loewy) Limited of 1938. Pennsy had more interesting steam locomotives though (duplexes, turbine). 

[Overmod]

Jones1945

Did Milwaukee Road made those Coffee Mugs in 40s/50s? I don't quite understand. 

It's the emblems... the gazelle vs. Hiawatha.  And the context, which isn't so much evident in the mug (which of course is modern) - the toaster is from that somewhat awkward period in the late 20s-early 30s when stainless hadn't developed fully.  See any of the early Budd rail are and motor trains for examples, including that Besler test car that nobody remembers.

[Firelock76]

Those aren't vintage coffee mugs Mr. Jones, they're recently produced railfan-oriented products.  You can typically find them at train shows or rail museum gift shops.

And the B&O was definately underrated as far as Northeast 'roads are concerned.  Many seasoned travelers actually preferred the B&O (and the Erie and Lackawanna for that matter) to the Pennsy and the New York Central.

The Erie's "Erie Limited" was a fine way to get from New York to Chicago if you didn't have to "...be there yesterday."

[Overmod]

Jones1945

B&O was a bit underated. I think their dining cars were far more superior to Pennsy form inside to outside, including the Broadway (Loewy) Limited of 1938. Pennsy had more interesting steam locomotives though (duplexes, turbine).

Now hold on there. son.  Does the number 5600 ring a bell?  Or the Emerson watertube firebox?  Mass application of front-feeding stokers?  A passenger 4-4-6-2?  Construction of the greatest of all Besler steam projects up to the point of having the boiler and a couple of the motor units done?

And all this on far more of a shoestring budget than the Standard Railroad of the World.

The food in those dining cars was also said to be superior to most of the competition (I have to retain a soft spot for Lobster Newburg, though!)

Look up the story of the Liberty Limited in the 1950s if you want a story of competitive B&O and PRR trains...

[Jones1945]

Overmod

......Does the number 5600 ring a bell?  Or the Emerson watertube firebox?  Mass application of front-feeding stokers?  A passenger 4-4-6-2?  Construction of the greatest of all Besler steam projects up to the point of having the boiler and a couple of the motor units done?

How could I forget these spicy stuffs, mentor? Except the passenger 4-4-6-2, I do remember these innovative ideas. Reader can find the info of B&O's non-articulated duplex Class N-1 4-4-4-4 in the passages of many books or articles about Penny's duplexes since the former was the first RR in America to adopt such idea. We also discussed on other thread not long ago about the reason of why project Besler W-1 was stopped. B&O had some famous locomotives like EM-1 2-8-8-4 but overall this company give me a low-profile impression. It was probably because there were so many Class I RRs and so many famous steam locomotives which were mass produced. Anyway, If I had a chance to pick who I could work with, I would pick Daniel Willard instead of Martin W. Clement. 

Overmod

And all this on far more of a shoestring budget than the Standard Railroad of the World.

The food in those dining cars was also said to be superior to most of the competition (I have to retain a soft spot for Lobster Newburg, though!)

Look up the story of the Liberty Limited in the 1950s if you want a story of competitive B&O and PRR trains...

Did they still call themselves "the Standard Railroad of the World" in 40s? I think Life magazine was right, thay said in one article that Pennsy's overnight coach trains were not as luxury as other RR's trains like Santa Fe's.

[BaltACD]

Jones1945

 

Overmod

......Does the number 5600 ring a bell?  Or the Emerson watertube firebox?  Mass application of front-feeding stokers?  A passenger 4-4-6-2?  Construction of the greatest of all Besler steam projects up to the point of having the boiler and a couple of the motor units done? 

How could I forget these spicy stuffs, mentor? Except the passenger 4-4-6-2, I do remember these innovative ideas. Reader can find the info of B&O's non-articulated duplex Class N-1 4-4-4-4 in the passages of many books or articles about Penny's duplexes since the former was the first RR in America to adopt such idea. We also discussed on other thread not long ago about the reason of why project Besler W-1 was stopped. B&O had some famous locomotives like EM-1 2-8-8-4 but overall this company give me a low-profile impression. It was probably because there were so many Class I RRs and so many famous steam locomotives which were mass produced. Anyway, If I had a chance to pick who I could work with, I would pick Daniel Willard instead of Martin W. Clement. 

Overmod

And all this on far more of a shoestring budget than the Standard Railroad of the World.

The food in those dining cars was also said to be superior to most of the competition (I have to retain a soft spot for Lobster Newburg, though!)

Look up the story of the Liberty Limited in the 1950s if you want a story of competitive B&O and PRR trains... 

Did they still call themselves "the Standard Railroad of the World" in 40s? I think Life magazine was right, thay said in one article that Pennsy's overnight coach trains were not as luxury as other RR's trains like Santa Fe's.

You can thank my Grandfather for the service and meals in the B&O Dining Cars from 1937 to September 30, 1957, when he retired as Supt. of the B&O Dining and Commisary Dept. reporting directly to W. C. Baker the Vice President of Operations.  He was a good cook in his own right and prepared the meals whenever our family visited.

[M636C]

Except the passenger 4-4-6-2, I do remember these innovative ideas. 

This wasn't around for long and I think it is a stretch to call it a passenger locomotive.

It was No 7400, built as a water tube firebox 2-6-6-2  Class KK-1 by Baldwin in November 1930. It was converted to a 4-4-6-2 class MK-1 in 1931, and returned to Class KK-1 in 1933.

My understanding was that this was an attempt to increase the stability of the locomotive at speed. The cylinders were smaller on the lead engine, of course, with the fewer driving axles but the driving wheels remained at 70" for both wheel arrangements.

I think it is a bit of a stretch to call it a passenger locomotive...

Peter

[Jones1945]

M636C

This wasn't around for long and I think it is a stretch to call it a passenger locomotive.

It was No 7400, built as a water tube firebox 2-6-6-2  Class KK-1 by Baldwin in November 1930. It was converted to a 4-4-6-2 class MK-1 in 1931, and returned to Class KK-1 in 1933.

Thanks you for the input, Peter.  With the info you provided, I found some pics of B&O Class KK-1 :

It is not hard to imagine how a B&O 4-4-6-2 would look like base on this pic! Note the headlight was placed above the pilot, follow the movement of the front engine truck.

Bonus pic: 
Santa Fe's 4-4-6-2 Mallet for passenger service.

 

[Overmod]

Please revise previous post.  Mr. Clark has given you a bum steer - highly unusual for him - but in this particular case it's led you away from significant history.

The two Baldwin KK-2s are significant as the first explicitly high-speed 'Mallet-type' articulateds in the world (previous use of the simple-articulated idea being for other reasons) and would lead in fairly short order to the logical improvement of the 'Berk-and-a-half' 2-6-6-4 (the two-wheel deep-firebox trailer already being obsolescent for an engine this size).

The state of advanced design for a two-wheel Bissel as practiced on, say, an AMC design had not made it to Baldwin, nor had the N&W and then later Alco idea of coordinating the effective equalization of front and rear engines vs. using a vertical hinge.  As a result the KKs had the dynamic equivalent of a double pendulum in guiding -- not a good thing.  A six-coupled engine with four-wheel replacement lead truck would not fit without extensive mods -- therefore the test with four-coupled, which fit.

Naturally a good Bissel was a much better answer than a short-wheelbase Mallet forward engine with limited (dare I say "T1-like" adhesion limitation).  As the EM-1, among others, would eventually demonstrate...

but compare the engines of the KK-2 to those of the N&W A to understand why this Baldwin design was revolutionary while a 73"-drivered 'Prairie Mallet' or its similar ATSF revision was a short-lived anomaly...

[Firelock76]

Speaking of Olive Dennis, this comes to us courtesy of the "Wheel."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDktIjIduIY

Hey Mr. Moderator!  With all due respect could you please let "Wanswheel" in from the cold so he can speak to us directly?  It'd be a helluva lot more efficient for all concerned!

Not that his minions like me mind helping out being his messengers, not at all!