[ POLL ] Which front-end design of EMD E series do you prefer?

[SD70Dude]

More, just look at that silver glow!  Can't paint drawbars like that anymore!

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/423836/

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/469195/

And now for a "nose" that only a mother could love:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/485173/

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/524846/

[Miningman]

Might as well admire NHL hockey goalie masks. Santa Fe E8 in warbonnet just does not work. The tire treads down the front nose... bleech! Ralff club, el puke-o. It is most difficult for me to cut up my much loved Rock Island but of the 43,806 paint schemes they used this one was one of the best. The E5 is 100% steam era produced and influenced, an Art Deco attempt by a Diesel to looks its best by pretending to be steam or at least look somewhat ok next to it. So we are admiring paint and camouflage. 

D&RGW PA is ugl-A beyond the beyond. Looks like a horrendously failed sports team uniform. 

Getting excited about painted silver couplers... we'll knock yourself out. 

 

[SD70Dude]

That's actually the only colour photo I've ever found of the Rio Grande PA's in that scheme.  It didn't last long, for obvious reasons. 

Can't say I've ever heard of anyone "ralffing" over a warbonnet before.  Well, maybe those experimental yellow or bluebonnets, but not the classic one!

This would look pretty good sitting next to the E5:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/locomotive/images/4/4b/Cbq4001Aeolus-2.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20161018022331

[Jones1945]

SD70Dude

Don't mean to distract from the steam discussion, but I happened upon these while looking for something else, a pretty good side by side comparison of the two EMD nose styles:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/668211/

Thank you for picking and sharing these pics with us, SD70Dude. They reminds me again that there is one thing in common when talking about appearance of trains: no matter what kind of train it is; steam or diesel, streamlined or not, livery design and decorative elements on the front end and both side of the engine could improve the appearance of an engine a lot!(or completely ruined it) 

 

If RR didn't put enough effort to beautify their prime motive power, they could be all looks like hell. I really miss the days when RRs willing to put afford, including money and time to make their engines; no matter it was steam or diesel; the best-looking engine in the States.

 

From 1960s to a few years before Amtrak took over, I remember from Pennsy, NYC to B&O, their E8 always looks so worn out, beat up, dirty and depressing, many of them didn’t look any better than Diesel engine in developing countries. I think many forum members still remember the livery of B&O, Penn Central in late 60s, some representative example of "bad money drives out good". Many RRs in Mid-West were doing better than Northeast before Amtrak ended the nightmare of Northeast in phases. 

FM Erie-Built, another masterpiece of front end design (by who?), that eyes catching stainless steel plate around the headlight matched the shape of the front end perfectly and reminded passengers the wings on the Class A and F7s, it also made the cumbersome A unit looked powerful, fast and sharp. 

[Miningman]

The warbonnet scheme just doesn't work on the few E units Sante Fe had. It's too long, it runs out of wow factor...or something. It's Friday night of a long weekend and I've had a very stressful week and can't think. 

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/668211/

Good thing the Vancouver Canucks didn't see that blue paint scheme on the Rio Grande PA because they would have adopted it to add to their other numerous disasters. Actually the Pittsburgh Penguins had something like that for a while. 

I have both the Bulington E5 and Aeolus Hudson in N scale ( I added a smoke unit to the Aeolus.. just be careful how you say that) and always display them side by each as the Newfoundlanders say. 

[SD70Dude]

What's wrong with this:

It could have been worse:

 

I think the Golden Seals were inspired by this:

Pretty far from lightning stripes eh?

How far they fall...

[Jones1945]

Miningman

The warbonnet scheme just doesn't work on the few E units Sante Fe had. It's too long, it runs out of wow factor...or something. It's Friday night of a long weekend and I've had a very stressful week and can't think. 

I have both the Bulington E5 and Aeolus Hudson in N scale ( I added a smoke unit to the Aeolus.. just be careful how you say that) and always display them side by each as the Newfoundlanders say.  

I guess ATSF considered the warbonnet scheme, a very successful design as a cooperative image, a publicity tool (like a  business card of ATSF) so that they keep using it for so such a long time, I am not a huge fan of it but I do appreciate that they keep the appearance of the fleet looked consistence and using streamlined skirted car until late-60s  Their taste on passenger cars were also admirable.

One of the reason I love Pennsy more than other railroads is the color of their engines, the DGLE and the lettering was such a classy thing. Raymond Loewy's improvement on GG1, the cat-whisker stripes and the color of F.O.M was so attractive to me and some of my family members as well. Even the post war 3 strips passenger car still looked decent and "Traditional", it is hard for me to not had a crush on Pennsy.  Speaking of pennsy, there is one nose design worth mention: 

(source: Ebay)

If these Baldwin-made Diesel units were not problematic, *PLUS Penny 100% adapted Loewy's color scheme of it (light color roof, new strips design, square headlights), they were the most beautiful diesel serving the East-West market in 1950s. Bad luck of both Pennsy and Baldwin, if things were not scripted.

[Miningman]

Something about streaky rust stains and Jade Green.. they were always seen together. 

The California Golden Seals were original 6 expansion teams. They even had gold coloured skates in their first year! They then became the Oakland Seals. Here's a good trivial pursuit question-- for a short period of time they were the Bay Area Seals! Nobody remembers that. The franchise never made a nickel, failed, and moved, became the Cleveland Barons which failed faster than you can say I put a smoke unit in my Aeolus. 

I don't think any team in any league could beat the Vancouver Canucks for just awful awful uniforms. Long pants!.. remember that!, and the dizzying multi coloured stripe thing. Is it something about being on the West coast? Hey lets all live on a major unstable fault on the ring of fire. 

Jones 1945--Milwaukee Erie Builds certainly did capture the imagination. Too bad they lasted about 28 minutes. Early fish heads on their way to the blast furnace in a gondola, Loewy styling and all. They symbolize to me the Olympian in total decline, the bankruptcy of the Milwaukee and it's ugly horrible embarrassing end. 

The Milwaukee 4-8-4's put them to shame in every way, including looks and appearance, certainly performance.

See Above ^

Substitute Milwaukee FM Erie Built....fish heads!

 

 

 

[Firelock76]

A couple of things...

1)  Know what those tough, no-nonsense trains crews on the Burlington called Aeolus?  "Big Alice,"  after "Big Alice, the Goon" in the Popeye comic strip!

http://popeye.wikia.com/wiki/Alice_the_Goon

2)  As far as diesel paint schemes are concerned, I'm amazed at how well the better-designed ones have stood up.  Look at how well the diesels in the Norfolk-Southern "Heritage Fleet" look in those classic paint jobs.  Those guys in the GM design shop really knew their business!

3)  Those Krauss-Maffei units are ugly all right, but it's a classic example of "Form following function."  Apparantly K-M didn't care what it looked like as long as it worked.

4)  I looked at the straw poll last night and it looks like pre-war slant nose and post-war bulldog nose are tied.  Lady Firestorm was looking over my shoulder and is MOST displeased!  The pre-war Art Deco inspired slant nose better come out on top or there's going to be hell to pay! 

AND it looks like there's only three votes cast in each category!  You people better get busy...

[Miningman]

Well at least someone is awake and posting on the Classic Forum, so thanks to Firelock for kicking things off. 

My vote is in the gondola in the preceding post photo. Perhaps this is not in the spirit of things but I'm not voting for any Diesel. I'm the guy protesting across the street with the sign 'Stop The Vote', 'Who Cares', Mikado Killers Shame,  and 'Diesels Suck And Stink'.

Thanksgiving weekend for us Canukleheads, and I understand Columbus Day for Americans.....do the Italians still hold a parade or has it been intimidated and bullied into the caves? Hope the Columbus statue is still there. 

 

[Firelock76]

Oh yeah Miningman, Columbus Day is still celebrated here in the US, and in a number of South American countries too from what I understand.

New York City still holds the Columbus Day parade, although a few years back the PC crowd tried to get it abolished.  That effort didn't last too long, either they realized they were looking ridiculous or someone "connected" had a few words with them. 

[Jones1945]

Miningman

Jones 1945--Milwaukee Erie Builds certainly did capture the imagination. Too bad they lasted about 28 minutes. Early fish heads on their way to the blast furnace in a gondola, Loewy styling and all. They symbolize to me the Olympian in total decline, the bankruptcy of the Milwaukee and it's ugly horrible embarrassing end. 

The Milwaukee 4-8-4's put them to shame in every way, including looks and appearance, certainly performance.

See Above ^

The streamlined pilot was such a great idea, it made MILW and CB&Q's 4-8-4s front end looked much longer and classy. I don't know who inspired who but we know postwar PRR's K4s had a similar design on their pilot but of course I heard some railfans dislike them. No designer can please everyone.

MILW's demise would be the next thing I am gonna study in-depth, there are not many things left that I want to know about Pennsy tbh, except the Triplex of Raymond Loewy and the average monthly mileage of S1 after 1942, probably never could be found......

[Jones1945]

Firelock76

A couple of things...

1)  Know what those tough, no-nonsense trains crews on the Burlington called Aeolus?  "Big Alice,"  after "Big Alice, the Goon" in the Popeye comic strip!

http://popeye.wikia.com/wiki/Alice_the_Goon

2)  As far as diesel paint schemes are concerned, I'm amazed at how well the better-designed ones have stood up.  Look at how well the diesels in the Norfolk-Southern "Heritage Fleet" look in those classic paint jobs.  Those guys in the GM design shop really knew their business!

3)  Those Krauss-Maffei units are ugly all right, but it's a classic example of "Form following function."  Apparantly K-M didn't care what it looked like as long as it worked.

4)  I looked at the straw poll last night and it looks like pre-war slant nose and post-war bulldog nose are tied.  Lady Firestorm was looking over my shoulder and is MOST displeased!  The pre-war Art Deco inspired slant nose better come out on top or there's going to be hell to pay! 

AND it looks like there's only three votes cast in each category!  You people better get busy...

1) I consider Alice, the Goon a metaphor of Alien specie living around with human in a fantasy world, so this nick name did fit the looks of the Aeolus which really looked like something made by Aliens. I heard they had another nickname “The Tin Can” since the streamlined shrouding next to the firebox was designed to be able to lift up for cleaning of ashes, but these plates generated annoying loud noises when the Aeolus running at high speed. The Aeolus looked great at side view, I especially love the square and deep windows of the Cab, but overall it was not something really outstanding design except her stainless-steel casting. Their bass model in good condition is very rare.   

 

2)Design of color scheme is always an important part or factor, if not the most important one, of product design in different industries. Penny in late-60s had an interesting interpretation on this point : 

 

3) Krauss-Maffei units reminds me of mixed-race people or pet, if SP wanted something powerful in terms of horse power, they could consider building an oil-burning PRR Q2 4-4-6-4 with improved mechanical design and cutting-edge stuffs in 1960s, 8000hp/18 wheels!

 

4) You are right! I wish more forum members willing to give their votes, I added one more pic of EMC E1 for comparison. Note that anyone can give their vote including your friends and family members:

https://www.strawpoll.me/16534066

 

 

[Miningman]

Firelock states-- " 3)  Those Krauss-Maffei units are ugly all right, but it's a classic example of "Form following function."  Apparantly K-M didn't care what it looked like as long as it worked."

Except they didn't work, or should I say work out very well. More junk.

Jones 1945 states-- " if Southern Pacific wanted something powerful in terms of horsepower, they could consider building an oil burning PRR Q2 4-4-6-4 with improved mechanical design and cutting edge stuff of the 1960's, 8000hp/18 wheels! "

Well now wouldn't that have set the Railroad world on its ears. Who the heck could build it? Baldwin is rubble, Lima and Alco unable. Many important appliances made by outside suppliers are defunct and gone. Overseas maybe. Perhaps Alco/MLW up in Montreal if it was early enough in the 60's. 

They even have a SP look to them. Russel was maverick enough, open minded, liked steam, and SP certainly had the money. They were pronounced as the new Standard of Railroading.

Hold the presses, that All-Diesel issue is cancelled. Then of course the Rio Grande has to give them a go. Good stuff.

 

[Penny Trains]

This one has the E-unit individuality that was lost later on.  It's an excellent look for a streamliner.

[M636C]

From SD70Dude

And now for a "nose" that only a mother could love:

 

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/485173/

 

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/524846/

These photographs show one of the problems of the original Krauss Maffei units, and one of the reasons for a change to a hood design on the later SP units:

In the first photo, 4002 is seem more or less as built while the trailing unit is fitted with external ducts to draw the engine intake air from lower down in tunnels to avoid overheating. This is similar to the modifications to EMD units, although they involved radiator cooling air rather than engine intake air. The second shows a (presumably) later photo of 4002 where additional air intake griles have been installed near floor level (with internal ducts replacing the ugly external ducts).

I've never disliked the appearance of these units. Recalling that they had to meet the European loading gauge, in order to carry out trials on the Semmering Pass in Austria. I would probably buy one of the Rivarrossi models if I come across one....

But the move from around 2400HP to 3600HP in US domestic locomotives and improvements in wheelslip control were at least partly due to the performance of these units.  A number of similar units of greater power than these were built for use in China, and had relatively long service lives there.

Peter

 

[M636C]

SD70Dude

And while the PA is often listed as having superior looks I don't think this paint scheme quite does them justice:

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/645935/

 

I hadn't ever seen a clear photo of this scheme before. It was intended to match the stainless steel of the California Zephyr, which the CB&Q scheme already did, but the Western Pacific didn't take as seriously.

 

It does have the advantage that the orange on the nose provides a clear safety message to the front, but doesn't disrupt the silver to silver transition from the trailing A unit to the train.

 

Peter

[rrlineman]

was this Alco's response to the FP45 by EMD as a pass/ freight model ??

[rrlineman]

The GG2 would have looked like the GG1 but slightly longer. we had pics in the ET files @ 30th st Power directors office. Also the overhead would have been 25kv single cycle to Pittsburgh.

[Jones1945]

Thank you very much, rrlineman, does that mean the wheel arrangement was supposed to be the same as GG1? 

[Firelock76]

If it had a "GG" classification the wheel arrangement of a GG2 would have been exactly the same as a GG1.

It worked like this, the PRR classified a 4-6-0 wheel arrangement as a "Type G," so since this particular electric was essentially two 4-6-0's back to back it was classified GG1.  Hence a GG2 would have still had a 4-6-0/0-6-4 wheel set-up.

As an aside, that hockey goalie with the skull mask is creepy!

If the SS ever fielded a hockey team I suppose their goalies would have looked just like that!  Probably would have had a pair of MG-42's backing him up as well!

Oh, and that plain, non-striped, all Tuscan Red Pennsy E-unit?  The late Don Ball called it "The Rustoleum Special!"

[Miningman]

[Firelock76]

Well that's it.  If I saw three guys coming at me looking like that I'd just have to shoot 'em!

And then bayonet 'em just to make sure!

Jeez!  What would Gordie Howe say?

[SD70Dude]

Firelock76

Jeez!  What would Gordie Howe say?

Probably nothing, he would simply rush up the ice and score on them.   

After all, actions are far louder than words!

[Miningman]

Goalies didn't wear masks in Gordies  prime days. 

FYI in order 1) Gerry Cheevers, Boston Bruins 1977...those are all the locations of his actual scars over the years.

2) Gary Bromley, Vancouver Canucks 1981

3) Gilles Gratton, New York Rangers 1971

Don't shoot, I'm an NHL Goalie!!!

You see what I mean about painted Diesels and Goalie Masks. 

[SD70Dude]

It is a little known fact that Gilles Gratton became a locomotive later in life:

https://i.redd.it/p3zy7h6oj2oz.jpg

[Miningman]

Û

More faces for front end consideration

 

[Miningman]

I wondered what happened to Gilles! ( I remember the video making this )

 

Here is a design and front end only Overmod could fiqure out.

 

[Jones1945]

Schienenzeppelin, 1939

0 Series Shinkansen, designed in early-60s

 

 

 

NYC M-497, a tribute to EMD's slant nose design?

[Jones1945]

Miningman

 Here is a design and front end only Overmod could fiqure out.

 

I haven't seen Overmod posting here for a few days, I wish he will be back very soon.