[ POLL ] Which front-end design of EMD E series do you prefer?

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, October 14, 2018 7:07 PM

BaltACD

You can thank my Grandfather for the service and meals in the B&O Dining Cars from 1937 to September 30, 1957, when he retired as Supt. of the B&O Dining and Commisary Dept. reporting directly to W. C. Baker the Vice President of Operations.  He was a good cook in his own right and prepared the meals whenever our family visited. 

I really envy that your Grandfather could work with the management team in one of the best railroad in America's railroad history; provided the best dining service and experience to passenger from all over the world. 

Dinner

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Posted by Firelock76 on Sunday, October 14, 2018 7:16 PM

Jeez, I'd take the "Royal Blue" just for a crack at the dining car! Yum-o!

Oh, and I see "Slant-Nose" is leading "Bulldog Nose" in the poll by a good margin.

Lady Firestorm is smiling!

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Posted by Jones1945 on Sunday, October 14, 2018 8:14 PM

Firelock76

Jeez, I'd take the "Royal Blue" just for a crack at the dining car! Yum-o!

Oh, and I see "Slant-Nose" is leading "Bulldog Nose" in the poll by a good margin.

Lady Firestorm is smiling! 

 

Agree, Dinner. I believe B&O's extraordinary dining service did attract many travelers to use B&O's services instead of its rival. This was a very simple but smart approach for its business survival. Some much larger Class I railroad, probably run by people who don't even travel by trains or interested in trains, had so much more resources to simply copy what B&O did but they probably thought that they were too "Almighty" to do so or failed to do so due to lack of passion and vision. 

 And yes, I am glad to know "Slant-Nose" is on the lead as well. I tried very hard to convince myself that the "Bulldog Nose" was better but it just doesn't work.

 
  

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Posted by M636C on Monday, October 15, 2018 5:21 AM

Please revise previous post.  Mr. Clark has given you a bum steer - highly unusual for him - but in this particular case it's led you away from significant history.

The two Baldwin KK-2s are significant as the first explicitly high-speed 'Mallet-type' articulateds in the world

I've checked my references (Edson's Steam Locomotives of the Baltimore and Ohio and Stauffer's B&O Power) and I've found nothing wrong with  my post.

7400 was indeed a KK-1 and 7450 was a KK-2. Edson reproduces the diagrams for 7400 as both KK-1 and MK-1 and both are clearly lettered as to the class involved.

The ex BR&P Mallet illustrated by Jones 1945 in his post is either a KK-4 or a KK-5. These could not ever have been classified as KK-1 since  both the KK-1 and KK-2 were in service before the B&O took up the lease of the BR&P in 1932. I have no idea how one of those became confused with the KK-1.

Clearly the concluion drawn is incorrect but the data provided in my post was correct.

Illustrations of 7400 in both forms and 7450 are found on pages 299 and 300 of Stauffer's "B&O Power".

And I still haven't found anything to indicate that 7400 was ever used as a passenger locomotuve.

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Posted by Overmod on Monday, October 15, 2018 6:21 AM

Glad this is being corrected and there is no error.  (And yes, for some unaccountable reason I had forgotten that the KK-1 was the Emerson-equipped version, and that the Mallets were later in the numbering sequence!  I saw that picture and overreacted...)

M636C
And I still haven't found anything to indicate that 7400 was ever used as a passenger locomotive.

You probably won't; the thing is that I don't think any B&O fast-freight power at the time was anywhere near as fast as this.  The existing Mountains were pretty strictly passenger engines; they would build a very good class of 70"-drivered engines in the '40s, but in the early Thirties we're still firmly in Big Six and Q territory for freight.

If I recall correctly, at least some of the Qs were equipped with passenger steam lines, and of course had a 2-wheel lead truck.  I have to wonder, strongly, why B&O would go to the trouble and expense of testing that four-wheel lead truck for nothing more than freight service when they already had passenger assignments for 64"-drivered engines with Bissels.  This might also tend to explain why the 4-coupled lead engine was deemed satisfactory for testing.

All wholly circumstantial, of course; I have looked for years for actual road-testing results (just as I've looked for examples of the front-end stokers) and would be delighted to find them.  But I continue to think that a 70"-drivered 4-4-6-2 is no less than the sort of dual-service engine PRR intended the Q1 to be (as an improved "5/4" of a dual-service M1 Mountain, as records at the Hagley indicated).  I can think of several places on B&O where this kind of power and speed capability might be highly useful on passenger trains, or 'mail and express'.

 

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Posted by Penny Trains on Monday, October 15, 2018 6:26 PM

Jones1945

 

 
BaltACD

You can thank my Grandfather for the service and meals in the B&O Dining Cars from 1937 to September 30, 1957, when he retired as Supt. of the B&O Dining and Commisary Dept. reporting directly to W. C. Baker the Vice President of Operations.  He was a good cook in his own right and prepared the meals whenever our family visited. 

 

 

I really envy that your Grandfather could work with the management team in one of the best railroad in America's railroad history; provided the best dining service and experience to passenger from all over the world. 

Dinner

 

The sirloin is tempting, but I'd have to go with the roast turkey, home fries, potato rolls and apple pie!  Chef

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Posted by Firelock76 on Monday, October 15, 2018 6:57 PM

I think the only thing on the menu I'd pass on is the oysters.  I've tried oysters several times and just don't care for 'em.  Clams, scallops, mussels, all good as far as I'm concerned, but not oysters.

But who knows?  I just might have liked 'em done B&O style.

Oh, I'd pass on the Sanka as well. Decaffinated coffee?  What's the point?Huh?

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Posted by Fr.Al on Thursday, October 18, 2018 1:21 PM

No shellfish for me, except clam strips on occasion. My system can tolerate them in moderation. Speaking of which, how many people here remember Howard Johnson's as having the best tasting fried clams of all time? When I was a little kid in tiny South Dorset, VT, a trip to one of the two "big" cities often meant eating at Howard Johnson's.

     Agree with you about the Sanka. I'll take regular coffee, dark-roast, usually black. At home, I may throw in a little 1% or skim milk. Sugar I only use in expesso.

     Back to trains; I'm joining Mr. Klepper in conceding that the E-5 was the best looking E unit of all times. 

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Posted by M636C on Thursday, October 18, 2018 6:21 PM

Fr.Al

No shellfish for me, except clam strips on occasion. My system can tolerate them in moderation. Speaking of which, how many people here remember Howard Johnson's as having the best tasting fried clams of all time? When I was a little kid in tiny South Dorset, VT, a trip to one of the two "big" cities often meant eating at Howard Johnson's.

     Agree with you about the Sanka. I'll take regular coffee, dark-roast, usually black. At home, I may throw in a little 1% or skim milk. Sugar I only use in expesso.

     Back to trains; I'm joining Mr. Klepper in conceding that the E-5 was the best looking E unit of all times. 

 
Many years ago while on duty in Washington DC, I was staying in a hotel  and the balcony to the room overlooked the locomotive service area in Potomac Yard (in Crystal City VA). We walked a couple of blocks to the nearby Howard Johnsons which had a buffet of salted fried clams, eat as much as you like... I think this was on Thursdays, presumably a slow night. I'd never had clams before but I liked those and probably ate too many.
 
The problem with the E-5 was the external straps on the pressed stainless steel nose, which detract from the appearance compared to the welded noses on all the others.
 
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Posted by Penny Trains on Thursday, October 18, 2018 7:00 PM

I'd do better on the Century.

 

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Posted by Firelock76 on Thursday, October 18, 2018 8:40 PM

If Lucius Beebe and Rogers Whittaker are to be believed, and I don't see why not, they were in a position to know, a lot of well-heeled New Yorkers used to buy a ticket on the Century from Grand Central to Albany just to eat in the diner.

Then after a fine ride and a fine dinner they'd catch a southbound back to the city.

Hey, some men even rode to try out the on-board barbershop.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, October 18, 2018 10:27 PM

Firelock76
I think the only thing on the menu I'd pass on is the oysters.

Oysters have to be done right.  I happen to like oysters Rockefeller, or SOME of the choices provided at the old Oyster Bar at Grand Central with plenty of their secret shallot sauce instead of cocktail sauce.  (You have to watch it as some other choices tastelike mud or worse...)  Or at Buster's in Shreveport where they shuck them as you watch out of a cast-iron bathtub full of oysters mingled with shaved ice.  Or for that matter Sydney rock oysters (where I had gotten up to 24 for lunch and 12 at breakfast before I left, and would still have that many regularly if I could...) -- they were a poor man's meal in the Depression but I'd have been happy to be poor.

Hojo's -- now you bring back memories.  I confess I have never been a fan of fried oysters, but the roast beef and mashed potatoes were a home-cookin' fan's delight.  In high school we took a trip to see a play at the Long Wharf theatre in New Haven, and the bus was delayed in traffic coming out which left us only about 40 minutes for lunch ... at an already-crowded Howard Johnson's.  I had just about resigned myself to a hamburger when my eye fell on a small card on the table -- "rate our service".  Aha, said I to myself, put on my best ICC inspector expression, and started making comments on the card.  Almost instantly for some reason I had attentive service, and got my roast beef, mashed potatoes, and plenty of water refills long before most of my compatriots had even placed their quickie orders.  (Yes, I did feel guilty, but not enough to carry the routine through to the end of lunch with one of their butterscotch sundaes!)

Miningman is something of an expert on NYC Lobster Newburg; I helped him a couple of years ago work through the 'best' approaches to re-create the experience, and he might want to recapitulate for Penny the 'fruits of his research' in getting the taste just right.

I'll confess that, for me, coffee needs to be like Tina Turner to be worth drinking.  And I agree with Peter that those fake Zephyr grilles on the nose of the E5 went a long way toward spoiling the fine lines of the canted nose, the E3-to-E6 nose otherwise being the finest flower of the E unit.  For some reason the E5 arrangement always reminded me of Raymond Loewy and his Gallic moustache ... no insult to either intended.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, October 18, 2018 11:14 PM

Penny, Overmod and all,

This is a letter I sent over the Christmas holidays to friends who have moved away from my town. I luv Oysters Rockefeller, big time.

Hello Jennifer , Jo and Hugh,
 
So...about 5 weeks ago I discovered in my beloved Classic Trains Forum  that on the New York Central Railroads superb train (and never since matched ), all Pullman '20th Century Limited' , New York to Chicago,  one of their more famous dishes in the Dining Car was Lobster Newburg, as per the recipe of the famous Delmonico Hotel in New York City, where it was invented in the 1880's. 
 
I researched the details eagerly and sought out more information. I double checked with Martha Stewarts recipe ( it's  wee bit more complex and involves leeks and things)  and then I figured " heck lets do it". 
 
I special ordered many of the items from both Robertsons and The Co-Op including the lobster of course. Everthing arrived in time for the following weekend. I'm not going to bore you with all the minutia involved but I can tell you if you had 8 arms it would be helpful...at least another cook in the kitchen.
 
I believe it was the first time ever for me that all 4 stovetops were going on the oven simultaneously. Done 3 and the oven, never the whole 4. In addition I used every single pot, pan, mixing bowl, crock, you name it. My kitchen was an unbelievable sorry mess with things everywhere. 
 
Besides the trying to stay on top of things, timing and watchful eye it became apparent that something would go wrong somewhere along the line. Well of course it did, the worst being my heavy cream/sherry pot on the stove erupted into a suffle' then transitioned into a volcano so fast there must be a law in Physics covering it. It blew out so bad that it went all over everything, into all 4 burners and down into the plate that separates the oven from the stovetop. That was like really really bad and set me back an hour. 
 
Badly shaken and cursing like a miner, an hour later I launched the "start over" with that one after cleanup. This time when they say stir constantly I will take them at their absolute word. Not even a second of not doing so. This is where having extra arms would be useful. 
 
Eventually it all came together. It was time to plate the darn thing. Sat down at my dining room table, imagined I was on the 20th Century Limited, took a sip of fine wine and dug in.  Superb, marvellous, outrageous, beyond the beyond is all I can say. So a success. 
 
Looking around my kitchen and all the pots and pans and bowls and things all over the place I don't think I recall such mayhem. Done BBQ's here for 20 people and it was not like this. 
 
Will I do it again? Sure..in 5 years. That's about right...an every 5th year thing...or get to the Big Apple and order it at the Delmonico Hotel....have a Delmonico steak as well, they invented that too!....and Oysters Rockefeller!
 
Will be sure to invite you next time ...if you have the patience and don't mind stirring.
 
Be well and take good care,
 
Vince 
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Posted by Jones1945 on Friday, October 19, 2018 12:07 AM

Wow, from Front-end designs to dining menus, it is such an exciting adventure! I love you guys "food reviews" and sharing. CoffeeDinnerDrinks

 

I cannot find a better version, but I would like to compare the menu of the Century and Broadway (below, unknown year)

 

Money is tight? no worries my friend!  Life is filled with high and low; rise and fall! Remember you could travel on the Trial Blazer! Pizza

 

  

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Posted by Penny Trains on Friday, October 19, 2018 6:33 PM

Aaaaahhhh Hojo's

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Posted by Firelock76 on Friday, October 19, 2018 9:19 PM

Never had the clam platter at the Ho-Jo's myself, but Peter's (M636) mention of Crystal City by Washington DC triggered a seafood memory.

Back in 1975 just down the road from Crystal City in Springfield VA was a place on US 1 called the "Chesapeake Bay Seafood House," an all-you-can-eat place that served up fried flounder, fried clams, fried shrimp, and fried chicken, along with southern "hush-puppies", potatos, and other veggies.  Myself and a lot of other lieutenants used to drive up from Quantico on a Saturday night to gorge ourselves.  The food was great and it was cheap!

Matter of fact, I took Lady Firestorm, my fiance' at the time, to the seafood place when she came for a visit and we stayed at the Crystal City Marriot.  Man, did she go to town on the fried shrimp!

It was very entertaining later on that evening watching her bloat, all stretched out on the hotel room couch!

Sadly, "CBSH" is no longer in business.  What a shame.

Overmod, you mentioned the "Oyster Bar" and triggered a memory.  My grandfather, my father's father, got a job at the "Oyster Bar" not long after he got off the boat.  He learned to make a clam chowder there that Dad said was fantastic!  The odd thing was, only Grandpa made it.  Either he wouldn't tell Grandma how he did it or she just couldn't get the hang of it which would surprise me.  Grandma could cook shoe leather and have people fighting for a taste!

The scent of Grandma's cooking drifting down Gordon Avenue in Tenafly NJ would stop people in their tracks!

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, October 19, 2018 9:34 PM

Miningman
as per the recipe of the famous Delmonico Hotel in New York City, where it was invented in the 1880's.

Vince, it was invented at one of the Delmonico's RESTAURANTS.  Of which the last 'real' one closed in 1923.  The 'hotel' (now proudly bearing the Trump name) is a real-estate project capitalizing on a later "Delmonico's" moving to its site in 1929.  It's to things like this that we can attribute not knowing the true recipe for a Delmonico steak ... although we can do some forensics and arrive at tasty interpretations.

The best way to stir the sauce is to use a sous-vide circulator; this works nicely in the requisite vessel, the top of a glass double-boiler.  Periodically use one of those funny silicone spatulas to stir in the regions near the walls of the pot.  Never gets hot enough to get prompt blowdown scald of the milk unless you get carried away with the heat transfer; you do NOT want to flash-cook any part of the sauce into the equivalent of a mousse.

Note that the actual New York Central Lobster Newburg recipe has survived, and unsurprisingly it involves a lot less preparation than the 'fancy' landborne versions.  (Also, tacitly, note that some versions of the recipe call for boiling the lobster gently, almost sous vide, for a very extended period of time, north of 25 minutes, which I consider anathema for lobster but which is very attractive for making many orders of the dish asynchronously in a diner setting...)

Use Royal Esmeralda sherry.  Or a good rainwater Madeira.  Reserve a small quantity for afterward, to toast a job well done and a train well remembered.

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Posted by Miningman on Friday, October 19, 2018 10:31 PM

Oh thank you thank you Overmod. The items you mention can be purchased from The Hudsons Bay Co. in Saskatoon, a must do annual visit pre Christmas each year. This year will be extra exciting now. 

Also really good to know about the Delmonico Hotel. I can correct the historical record and the origins of the dishes in the future. Luv this kind of stuff. It's important. 

The Sherry's you mention may or may not be able to be special ordered from the hard working civil servants at the Saskatchewan Liquor Store. I very much doubt either is carríed here locally in the towns outlet, where at the moment some kind of 'Pumpkin Blast' thing is the order of the day, made by the Captain with the raised leg, but you never know. Again likely better hunting in Saskatoon. Bristol Cream is the one we have. 

Yes I did a sort of hybrid between Martha Stewart and the New York Central .. and too high of a heat was 100% inexperience on my part.

In the end it was worth it.  

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 20, 2018 5:45 AM

There's nothing wrong with Harveys Bristol Cream except that sometimes you get charged too much for it.  Keep your eyes peeled for Directors Bin Port, which is no longer made -- it is the elixir of the gods of tawny ports. 

I will not mention Captain Morgan except to note that this is the season of general wackiness, where they put pumpkin and pumpkin spice in everything leading up to jack-o-lantern season.  Now they have pumpkin pie Pop-Tarts ... on remainder sale already.

There is only one rum: Mount Gay (pronounced mon'gae) YELLOW label Eclipse (the green is for tourists only).  You will wonder why you ever bothered with another ... Pusser's, for example, although I loved 'splice the main brace' and all that, and still wear the shirts with the flags.  Perhaps a cautionary tale is in order, now thirty years down the memory hole.  I had a friend at Smith College and invited her down to Tortola over spring holidays.  The drink of 'choice' was pina coladas, and we had about ten sets of ice cube trays running in rotation to be sure we had enough ice cubes.  One part pineapple juice, one part Coco Lopez, two parts rum, shave the ice in the glass and pour in, and away you go.

Now, I can date this story by it being the first year the Mount Gay people introduced the 64-ounce size with the convenient carrying handle (!) which was pretty obviously the Shuttle external tank of rum; this would last forever.  Except that ... two days in, I went to make a pina and there were only about 2 fingers left in the bottom.  Was the house staff binging on 'my' rum??

A quick cross-check revealed the appalling fact that the recipe for a pina colada involves TWO parts of pineapple juice and only one of rum.  The two of us had gone through half a gallon of rum in two days of casual drinking.  Her reaction to this was "I wondered why I wasn't having any trouble getting to sleep at night"...

No real railroad connection other than the New York Central making this one of the most famous of signature dishes.  Pity Delmonico's is so effectively gone; my fictitious 'model railroad' prototype used their staff as outsourced talent for its dining cars, something that would be of comparatively little worth to contemporary Amtrak but that, even now, makes for a little inadvertent salivation thinking about the possibilities.

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, October 20, 2018 8:58 AM

I am reminded of a time many years ago when I joined a "Port Appreciation Society" at the senior sailor's mess at the local Naval Base. We compared many of the available ports and it was clear that price was no guarantee of quality. I gave this up after driving home while probably not fit to do so and thinking I couldn't do that again. Today of course there are instructions on safe consumption of alcohol that probably would prevent the formation of any such organisation in any of the services.

Peter

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 20, 2018 10:39 AM

M636C
We compared many of the available ports and it was clear that price was no guarantee of quality.

Pleeeeeeease tell me you remembered some of the fruits of the research?  I have independently confirmed your results and am tired of finding that reputable bottles from reputable firms contain the moral equivalent of battery electrolyte.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, October 20, 2018 12:40 PM

I've tried port, personally I prefer a good burgundy.

Although maybe I've just never had a good port.

And Peter, does the RAN pass the port to the left like the RN does?  Naval tradition and all, don't you know?

Wayne

PS:  Isn't this site wonderful?  Where else could we go where we start out with "Slant-nose vs. Bulldog-nose" and end up talking about fine food and drink?

This is our "happy place!"

PPS:  Looks like "Slant-nose" is still in the lead in the straw poll.

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Posted by Overmod on Saturday, October 20, 2018 3:19 PM

Firelock76
I've tried port, personally I prefer a good burgundy. Although maybe I've just never had a good port.

Keep in mind those two are radically different.  Port is a fortified wine, involving the addition of brandy part way through fermentation - the bottle on my desk is 40 proof.  The burgundy equivalent would be a brandy like Fine de Bourgogne, I think, or if you have the taste for it, an acquired taste I never acquired, Marc de Bourgogne.

I am the wrong person to ask about Cognac or French brandy, as I've never had a bottle of it costing less than about $300 that didn't taste like battery acid.  The really good stuff is the nectar of the gods ... but for what it costs, I'll find other pleasures.  Meanwhile a good tawny vintage port, of which Harvey's Directors Bin was my favorite example, is comparatively drinkable at more reasonable price.

RAN Chief of Naval Protocol (1981) is one of the canonical references on 'passing to the left'.

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Posted by Penny Trains on Saturday, October 20, 2018 6:16 PM

Firelock76
Where else could we go where we start out with "Slant-nose vs. Bulldog-nose" and end up talking about fine food and drink?

If we didn't, we wouldn't be us!  Wink  The best railroading is all about tangents!  Laugh

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, October 20, 2018 6:41 PM

Penny Trains
 
Firelock76
Where else could we go where we start out with "Slant-nose vs. Bulldog-nose" and end up talking about fine food and drink? 

If we didn't, we wouldn't be us!  Wink  The best railroading is all about tangents!  Laugh

But it is all owed to the Dining Cars that were in the trains that were hauled by both Slant Nose, Bulldog Nose, Baby Face and all the other locomotives of the 'Streamline' era, including steam.

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Posted by Firelock76 on Saturday, October 20, 2018 6:56 PM

Ah tangents!  Well done Becky, you worked a little railroadin' back into this! 

And Mr. Balt, you hit the nail on the head as well! 

Makes you want to weep for what's been lost, doesn't it?

Overmod, you mentioned cognac?  About a year or so ago I was in the local ABC store (Here in Virginia the state sells the hard stuff) and out of curiosity picked up a bottle of Corvoisier, "The Brandy of Napoleon,"  figuring if Boney liked it there must be something to it.

Eh, left me cold.  Finished the bottle and didn't get another.  Either Boney had no taste buds or it's not the same stuff he had "way back when."

Anyone know what kind of liquor the Duke of Wellington liked? 

Wayne

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Posted by M636C on Saturday, October 20, 2018 9:23 PM

And Peter, does the RAN pass the port to the left like the RN does?  Naval tradition and all, don't you know?

As Overmod indicated, yes of course...

Even in the Senior Sailor's Mess, not just the Wardroom.

Although to br realistic, food service on shore has suffered cuts than make those endured by Amtrak look minor by comparison.

Take the RAN Fleet Base West, for example. The officers' Wardroom was closed, and combined with the senior sailor's mess. This is run as a cafeteria without table service. I'm pretty adapable for an old guy but it wasn't the Navy I joined in 1968. I miss the uniformed stewards offering "Devils on Horseback" after dessert, and retiring to the lounge with coffee, a cheese platter and crackers.

I sat opposite an Engineer Rear Admiral, like me in civilian clothes and I spoke to him about the work that had brought him to Western Australia. But two sailors at our table didn't recognise him, and left the table without a word. I felt that he deserved more than that after his many years of service.

The wardroom is still there, but only the swimming pool is still in use.

Conversely, conditions for Junior Sailors have improved dramatically since 1968....

Peter

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Posted by SSW9389 on Monday, October 22, 2018 6:56 AM

When did the EMD design team modify the slant nose E6A to the bulldog nose of the E7A? Was it just a matter of fitting the nose to the existing design?

The last E6As were built in September 1942. The first E7As were built in February 1945. 

Tags: E6A , E7A
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Posted by SD70Dude on Monday, October 22, 2018 9:10 AM

Miningman

Someone out there will know what that God-awful thing is. I'm just grateful it doesn't say Pennsylvannia after all it is an Atlantic ( I think) and it just might be something they could come up with on a bad day.

Well at least you can access the moving stuff. Even the skyline casing looks like a bunch of junk. 

Here's another one I just know you'll love:

http://railpictures.net/photo/674657/

Hope this doesn't distract too much from what has become a very interesting non-railroad conversation.

Greetings from Alberta

-an Articulate Malcontent

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, October 22, 2018 9:21 AM

Definitely some kind of nasty. 

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