wanswheel Johnny, the Pere Marquette Historical Society car roster calls it Imperial Salon lounge coach. It had a smoking section with 8 double seats facing the windows. Pennsylvania Railroad? http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=P70_deluxe_1702_fp-E95156B.gif&sel=coa&sz=sm&fr=
Johnny, the Pere Marquette Historical Society car roster calls it Imperial Salon lounge coach. It had a smoking section with 8 double seats facing the windows.
Pennsylvania Railroad?
http://prr.railfan.net/diagrams/PRRdiagrams.html?diag=P70_deluxe_1702_fp-E95156B.gif&sel=coa&sz=sm&fr=
Here are some links for Imperial Salon cars
http://wilkinsontrains.com/traindisp.cfm?train_id=340
http://rr-fallenflags.org/steamtown/co-c725r.jpg
As to a third road, the only one I knew of was the L&N. The Heart of Dixie club had in its museum in Birmingham (the museum is in Calera, now) an L&N coach with the same type of seats. This may have been operated on the Pan American. It does look as though the PRR operated the same.
What question do you have for us now?
Johnny
wanswheel Imperial Salons? They had "2 and 1 seating" for 45 passengers, arranged as 13 double seats across the aisle from 13 single seats, plus 1 double seat at the front of the car facing backwards, and 2 probably somewhat narrower double seats at the back of the car, I think. http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-7456.jpg http://books.google.com/books?id=VmZmOS5rm5MC&pg=PA159
Imperial Salons? They had "2 and 1 seating" for 45 passengers, arranged as 13 double seats across the aisle from 13 single seats, plus 1 double seat at the front of the car facing backwards, and 2 probably somewhat narrower double seats at the back of the car, I think.
http://www.cohs.org/repository/Archives/cohs/web/cohs-7456.jpg
http://books.google.com/books?id=VmZmOS5rm5MC&pg=PA159
Now, what did the PM call its coaches (probably of the same type, since the name is similar)? What other road used similar coaches (I have been in one, but I did not note the number of seats nor the arrangement at the ends of the car)?
wanswheelJohnny, yes the Empire Builder and, since they account for 8 of the 9 fastest runs of 1956, the Afternoon Zephyr is perfectly fine. Your turn.
OK, here is one that may have to be researched.
In the late thirties and early forties, the C&O had a unique name for the coaches operated on the George Washington, F.F.V, and Sportsman. What was it? Also, what was different about these cars? At the same time, the Pere Marquette had a similar name for the coaches operated on the day trains between Chicago and Grand Rapids. And, another railroad operated similar coaches on at least one train, though it simply called them "reclining seat coaches."
The fastest mile I ever timed on track with only ABS was one mile in 35 seconds--on IC #4 between Crystal Springs and Jackson, Miss. Three coaches, one baggage, one RPO, and two E8's or E9's.
Johnny, yes the Empire Builder and, since they account for 8 of the 9 fastest runs, the Afternoon Zephyr is perfectly fine. Your turn. Here's the list of "Fastest Scheduled Train Runs in the United States" based on 1956 timetables, from the 1957 World Almanac and Book of Facts, which cites Trains Magazine and the American Association of Railroads as the source.
84.4 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - Prairie du Chein to La Crosse - 57.7 miles
82.2 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - La Crosse to Prairie du Chein
82.2 MPH - Empire Builder - Prairie du Chein to La Crosse
81.9 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - East Dubuque to Prairie du Chein - 54.6 miles
81.9 MPH - Twin Zephyrs - Prairie du Chein to East Dubuque
81.8 MPH - City of Miami - Centrailia to Effingham - 53.2 miles
81.8 MPH - City of New Orleans - Effingham to Centrailia
81.2 MPH - Golden Gates - Wasco to Corcoran - 37.9 miles
81.2 MPH - Golden Gates - Corcoran to Wasco
81.1 MPH - City of Miami - Champaign to Mattoon - 44.6 miles
81.1 MPH - City of New Orleans - Champaign to Mattoon
81.1 MPH - Panama Limited - Champaign to Mattoon
80.8 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - New Lisbon to Portage - 43.1 miles
80.7 MPH - Challenger - Grande Island to North Platte - 137.2 miles
80.5 MPH - North Coast Limited - Prairie du Chein to La Crosse
79.2 MPH - City of Denver - North Platte to Kearney - 95 miles
79.1 MPH - AT&SF Number 3 - Gallup to Holbrooke - 94.9 miles
79.1 MPH - Grand Canyon north section - Gallup to Holbrooke
78.9 MPH - Chief - La Junta to Lamar - 52.6 miles
78.5 MPH - City of Los Angeles - Grande Island to North Platte
78.5 MPH - City of San Francisco - Grande Island to North Platte
78.5 MPH - Challenger - Grande Island to North Platte (after 4/29/56)
78.4 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - Portage to New Lisbon - 59.8 miles
78.3 MPH - three 400s - Kenosha to Waukeegan - 15.66 miles
78.3 MPH - Morning Hiawatha - Sparta to Portage - 78.3 miles
78.1 MPH - El Capitan - La Junta to Garden City - 152.5 miles
78.0 MPH - Aerotrain - Newark to Trenton - 48.1 miles
78.0 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - La Crosse to New Lisbon - 59.8 miles
77.8 MPH - Cleveland-Cincinnati Special - Mattoon to Paris - 37.6 miles
77.6 MPH - Rocky Mountain Rocket - Bureau to Moline - 64.7 miles
77.5 MPH - City of Denver - Fremont to Columbus - 45.2 miles
77.3 MPH - Commodore Vanderbilt - Gary to South Bend - 59.3 miles
77.2 MPH - Olympian Hiawatha - Portage to La Crosse - 102.9 miles
77.0 MPH - Denver Zephyr - Galesburg to Aurora - 124.5 miles
76.9 MPH - Nebraska Zephyr - Aurora to Mendota - 44.9 miles
76.9 MPH - American Royal Zephyr - Aurora to Mendota
76.9 MPH - Grand Canyon north section - Gallup to Holbrook
76.8 MPH - Chief - Lamar to Garden City - 99.9 miles
76.7 MPH - Denver Zephyr - Chicago to Galesburg - 162.2 miles
76.6 MPH - City of Miami - Mattoon to Effingham - 26.8 miles
76.6 MPH - City of New Orleans - Mattoon to Effingham
76.6 MPH - Panama Limited - Mattoon to Effingham
76.6 MPH - San Francisco Chief - Hanford to Wasco - 54.9 miles
76.3 MPH - NYC Number 741 - South Bend to La Porte - 26.7 miles
76.2 MPH - Empire Builder - East Dubuque to Prairie du Chein
76.2 MPH - North Coast Limited - East Dubuque to Prairie du Chein
76.1 MPH - Afternoon Hiawatha - Portage to Watertown - 46.9 miles
wanswheelI asked for 5 trains but actually there are still 4 more trains that would be correct answers to this question, long-distance through trains that did their fastest station-to-station runs in Illinois or Wisconsin (2) or Nebraska.
Having at last found the courage to delve into my timetable collection, I have found two more Burlington trains that whizzed down the track--the westbound Empire Builder and the eastbound Afternoon Zephyr also covered the 55 miles between East Dubuque and Prairie du Chien in 41 minutes.
A note to all--do not expect a railroad that has no ABS or ATC (such as SAL) to have scheduled a train to run faster than 79 mph between two stations, much less average 80 or better from start to stop. The ICC would have descended on such a schedule like a ton of bricks.
Fastest N.E. Corridor run was the Aerotrain at 78 MPH from Newark to Trenton. The Broadway Limited and the Afternoon Congressional were relatively pokey at 70.1 MPH from Newark to North Philadelphia. The Broadway picked it up a tiny bit to 70.5 MPH from Paoli to Harrisburgh, which was the fastest scheduled run of an electric train in 1956. The crowded tie for second-fastest at 70.1 includes the northbound Afternoon Congressional and the New York Express from North Philadelphia to Newark, and the Theater Special from Michigan City Shops to New Carlisle.
I asked for 5 trains but actually there are still 4 more trains that would be correct answers to this question, long-distance through trains that did their fastest station-to-station runs in Illinois or Wisconsin (2) or Nebraska.
Mike
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Ninety and even 100 plus were regular fare back then on what we call the Corridor. But even with control points, or interlockings, etc., were taken into consideration, you'd find the distances less than 50 miles in each instance.
The public timetables and the Official Guide are not the only answers. There are also employees timetables which show time past control points as scheduled . I am certain that if one has a PRR emloyees timetable for the NY - Washington corredor, there are more than five trains on that corredor that will show more than 80 mlph running between Wilmington and Baltimore and between Baltimore and Washington, but not necessarily at the stations, just control point. IN 1956 the fastest trains on the route were the Morning and Afternoon Congressionals, which made the NY - Washington run, 225 miles, in 215 minutes inlcuding stops at Newark, Philadelphia 30th Street, Wilmington, Baltimore, and Washington. Next in line were the Senator, the East Cosat Champion, and the Silver Meteor, which I think were scheduled for 225 minutes with the added stop at Trenton.
Someone should check on this who has access to the employees timetables.
Johnny, yes The City of New Orleans. Incidentally thanks for mentioning East Dubuque because, for this question, a "run" needs to be defined as the distance between two stops. Which puts El Cap at a disadvantage. Even if it did exceed 80 MPH for more than 50 mileposts, it's average speed on a 152.5-mile run was 78.1 MPH.
Heny, I guess you're right about trick question.
henry6 Wasn't there daily speed races between Milwaukee and Chicago? So...MLW and CNW have to be considered...
Wasn't there daily speed races between Milwaukee and Chicago? So...MLW and CNW have to be considered...
wanswheel Al, yes the U.S.A. Henry, yes Burlington and Illinois Central. Johnny, yes the Twin Zephyrs Al, yes Union Pacific.
Al, yes the U.S.A.
Henry, yes Burlington and Illinois Central.
Johnny, yes the Twin Zephyrs
Al, yes Union Pacific.
When I looked at the IC's schedules in northern Illinois (the only territory on the IC where such speed was allowed), I miscalculated, so declared that the IC was out. The southbound City of New Orleans was scheduled at 53 minutes for the 39 miles from Effingham to Centralia (this includes dwell time in Centralia), for an average speed of 82 mph.
I have not yet found anything on the UP, but there could have been some tightening of schedules by 1956.
I have a 56 guide but without looking I would think that the AT&SF Super Chief, El Capitan and San Francisco Chief would all three qualify. Along with the Morning and Afternoon Zephyrs that Johnny lists that should make five. If it is five different RRS I would say AT&SF, CB&Q, CRI&P, IC, and UP
Al - in - Stockton
wanswheel Name 5 trains scheduled to run faster than 80 MPH for a distance of more than 50 miles in 1956. Mike
Name 5 trains scheduled to run faster than 80 MPH for a distance of more than 50 miles in 1956.
I would look at CB&Q, NYC, PRR, SF, and UP timetables and look for the Zephers, 20thCentury Ltd, The Broadway Ltd., Super Chief, and the City of SF for starters. IC did a pretty good job on the Panama Ltd. as did Atlantic Coast Line.
USA only?
Al, it looks like Wanswheel answered the question on 7-16, and DaveKlepper, on 7-19, declared him to be the winner.
Who has the next question?
from all that i have read on this subject, only when the catenary was itself damaged. However, at times steam locomotives did run through, without any need for a catenary or weather problem, with an electric double heading. And as you already know, in the last days of electric operation, mu operation of diesels and electrics was normal.
The Milwaukee did have a lot of measures to clear ice from catenary, and use of both pantographs instead of one on the electrics was resorted to frequently. I think at least some of the older electrics, not the Little Joes, also had train line 3000 volt power cables.
Having grown up along the Othello - Tacoma electrification of the Mulwaukee it seemed to be the one most frequently to encounter problems. This was due to the heavy snows on the west slope of the Cascades. For the most part they did very well at keeping the line open to electrics but that heavy wet snow of the west slope of Snoqualmie Pass played havoc with the Milwaukee electrification. The GN further north never had the same problem once the Cascade tunnel was built as the GN electrification began just a short distance from the western end of the tunnel that carried it under Stevens Pass. It seemed like in the last years before the west end of the Milwaukee was dieselized it was worse whether this was due to maintenance or just age of the overhead I don't know. Diesls carried the passenger trains the last few years before the final trains ran in 1960 but the electrics soldiered on for a few more years on the freights before they that too became diesels. I know that Milwaukee electrification lasted longer on the Idaho-Montana section thatn the coast division.
To make a clarification. The South Devon Railway, which eventually became part of the famous Great Western Railway. was not a solely atmospheric system. It had broad gauge steam locos - very fast runners for their time. The atmospheric trials were done in the hope that the severe grades encountered in the County of Devon would be more easily overcome using the lighter atmospherically operated railcars. So in that respect they were part of a once Classic Railroad system. Incidentally there are more ex-Great Western Railway locos in preservation in the UK than any of the former UK railroads.
I did mean USA railroads so you are the winner and should ask the next question. On this basis the question I would ask is this.
I know that some Western divisions of the Milwaukee Road had electrified sections - with an unfortunate gap between them. How frequent an occurrence, due to very bad weather conditions or natural hazards such as land slips, forest fires etc., was the electrified sections temporarily closed down and services operated by steam or diesel locos?
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
I did mean USA railroads so you are the winner and should ask the next question. Also, I would question whether an atmoshpheric railroad is really a railroad in the sense of what Classic Trains is all about, but other can give their opinion on that matter.
I though it was the Western of Massachusetts that became part of the Boston and Albany, with a normnal 4-4-0, but apparently you have uncovered the "prior art " and I stand corrected.
Also, one othe correction: The Muncie streetcars did dissapear in 1931. I was thinking of Anerson, not Muncie. The Indiana railroad got permission to discontinue local service because they were loosing lots of money due to unrestricted jitney competition, with the City government unwilling to cange the situation. But the Indiana Railroad was invited back much later and ran the local bus system from about 1938 through WWII and a few years after. After 1931, only the tracks required for the interurbans remained, and Muncie did have interurbna service to both Indianapolis and Fort Wauyne until January 1941 and the end of all Indian Railroad electric car service. They were then a bus and truck company.
Regarding the Federal's move to the Poughkeepsie Bridge and the sale of the second Maryland, the reason is clear: the replacement of the wood sleepers with the much heavier steel sleeping cars. Not only is it probable that the overall weight limitations of the boat were exceeded, but there would have been a balance problem. There was not much difference in weight between the New Haven's wood coaches and the wood Pullman sleepers. But in the steel era there was a considerable difference. Without some extra switching time (and expence), the load on the boat would been unbalanced, causing a list.
As far as I know ALL steel Pullman sleepers had ice air conditioning, even the first built for the Penn Station inauguration. Am I correct on this?
In the U.S. it was probably a CV train pulled by a famous Baldwin 4-2-2, the Governor Paine.
http://www.imagescn.technomuses.ca/railways/index_view.cfm?photoid=-1847851250&id=49
Excerpt from History of the Baldwin Locomotive Works 1831-1920
Early in 1848, the Vermont Central Railroad was approaching completion, and Governor Paine, the President of the Company, conceived the idea that the passenger service on the road required locomotives capable of running at very high velocities. Henry R. Campbell, Esq., was a contractor in building the line, and was authorized by Governor Paine to come to Philadelphia and offer Mr. Baldwin ten thousand dollars for a locomotive which could run with a passenger train at a speed of sixty miles per hour. Mr. Baldwin at once undertook to meet these conditions. The work was begun early in 1848, and in March of that year Mr. Baldwin filed a caveat for his design. The engine was completed in 1849 and was named the "Governor Paine." It had one pair of driving wheels, six and one-half feet in diameter, placed back of the firebox. Another pair of wheels, but smaller and unconnected, was placed directly in front of the firebox, and a four-wheeled truck carried the front of the engine. The cylinders were seventeen and one-quarter inches diameter and twenty inches stroke, and were placed horizontally between the frames and the boiler at about the middle of the waist. The connecting rods took hold of "half-cranks" inside of the driving wheels. The object of placing the cylinders at the middle of the boiler was to lessen or obviate the lateral motion of the engine, produced when the cylinders were attached to the smoke arch. The bearings on the two rear axles were so contrived that by means of a lever, a part of the weight of the engine usually carried on the wheels in front of the firebox could be transferred to the driving axle. The "Governor Paine" was used for several years on the Vermont Central Railroad, and then rebuilt into a four-coupled machine. During its career, it was stated by the officers of the road that it had run a mile in forty-three seconds.
I guess the question about the first train speed of 60mph or above is directed at US railroads.
However, in 1847/48 these speeds were attained by the South Devon Railway on their line that used the "atmospheric" system of propulsion. An interesting event, well before its time and amongst other things due to the proximity of the sea was a failure.
Given the fact that it had been said in the early 1830's that traveling at more than 10mph could well kill you can you imagine the amazement people had when traveling or seeing these trains.
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