Classic Train Questions Part Deux (50 Years or Older)

[Deggesty]

henry6

Neither the Maple Leaf nor any of its predecessors ever ran via Ithaca.  But you do bring up the intresting point that Maple Leaf was the name applied apparently when the train was dieselized and "streamlined" after WWII. The RDG did have more Pullman services than this one to Buffalo. I believe the same train dragged a Pullman up to the CNJ for the Interstate Express which was again handed off to the Lackawanna to take to Syracuse.  In my 1958 Guide westbound passenger service to Williamsport was cut back to Shamoken so the sleeper to Newberry shown in the 1927 guide as gone.  And since the sleeper went to Newberry instead of just W'msprt. it might be assumed the car continued west via the NYC north or the PRR west to Erie or Buffalo (more digging needed on that).

Henry, I do not know just when the name was changed to The Maple Leaf, but the November, 1939 Guide shows this name.

As to Pullman service in/out of Reading Terminal, in February, 1950, there were three lines, each one leaving and arriving on a different train--Philadelphia to Toronto, Buffalo, and Syracuse. The timetable with the equipment listing showing the car to Scranton has an interesting note declaring that coach passengers for points on the D.L.&W. will not be received. Perhaps they thought that even though seven minutes (in at 1:11 and out at 1:18) was long enough to switch the sleepr, it was not long enough for coach passengers to move from one train to another.

[henry6]

Neither the Maple Leaf nor any of its predecessors ever ran via Ithaca.  But you do bring up the intresting point that Maple Leaf was the name applied apparently when the train was dieselized and "streamlined" after WWII. The RDG did have more Pullman services than this one to Buffalo. I believe the same train dragged a Pullman up to the CNJ for the Interstate Express which was again handed off to the Lackawanna to take to Syracuse.  In my 1958 Guide westbound passenger service to Williamsport was cut back to Shamoken so the sleeper to Newberry shown in the 1927 guide as gone.  And since the sleeper went to Newberry instead of just W'msprt. it might be assumed the car continued west via the NYC north or the PRR west to Erie or Buffalo (more digging needed on that).

[daveklepper]

You are right, and we all learn from each other, and I said I was happy to let Henry ask the next question.  So I guess it was only in the post-WWII era that the LV Maple Leaf served Ithaca.   Is that correct?   Also, was not the Maple Leaf Pullman the ONLY Pullman operated on the Reading, at least in the post-WWII era, into Reading Terminal.   (Pullmans did of course run over the Reading on B&O, on through trains to the west, but they used the Philly B&O station.)   A Cornel red car among all the dark green/

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

I would also note that I got all the railroads correctly and Henry did not.   I knew the TH&B only handled the through NYC-CP trains and none from the LV and CN.   But I also knew that the LVT had to use NYC trackage rights to serve Buffalo.   The short stretch of NYC track connected the LVT with the CN and was used by freights as well as passenger trains.

I frankly just do not believe that the Maple Leaf NEVER served Ithaca.   I recall a letter or report of a Cornel student traveling to Chicago via a Pullman on the Maple Leaf.   So please check your OG's and posibly you will find that at one time it did serve Ithaca.  And if the train itself did not run through to Chicago, there must have been a through Pullman or several at one time or another.  

Of course it is possible that there was an Ithaca setout and pullout Pullman to Chicago at one time that ran on a connecting train from Ithaca, but that seems unlikely.   Or did it run on a different LV train to connect with the CN's "own" Maple Leaf?

 

LV trains into Pennsylvania Station had train crews into Pennsyllvania Station, but the GG-1 or R-1 or P-5 locomotive crews were strickly PRR.   When the LV ran into Jersey City via Newark, the LV engine crews did run over the PRR through Newark to Jersey City.

 

If Henry wishes to ask the next question, by all means I'll be glad to defer to him.

Dave, I asked about the situation with the Maple Leaf sixty years ago, which was in 1950. In 1950, the The Maple Leaf did not go into Ithaca. I also asked about a city in New York State that the train bypassed. As I confessed, I should have specified that the bypassed city was served by trains of the same road that operated the Maple Leaf. I am sorry that I was not more specific. I did not ask about trackage rights; I asked about the roads that operated the train with their crews; the Guide and public timetables do not mention trackage rights, nor do they mention the situation in which an engine change, with an engine crew of a different road, is necessary; in this situation., the train was still a Lehigh Valley train, even though a PRR engine crew was necessary to enter Manhattan.

In 1930, #3, The Toronto-Chicago Express and #2, The Philadelphia-New York Express did carry a NYC-Chicago car, and they did not go through Ithaca; these trains were not called The Maple Leaf.

It is true that not everybody has the same specific information about train operation, and if one does not have the specific information that is requested, he can guess--and should not be disturbed if he guesses wrong and should be happy if he guesses right.

 

[Deggesty]

daveklepper

I would also note that I got all the railroads correctly and Henry did not.   I knew the TH&B only handled the through NYC-CP trains and none from the LV and CN.   But I also knew that the LVT had to use NYC trackage rights to serve Buffalo.   The short stretch of NYC track connected the LVT with the CN and was used by freights as well as passenger trains.

I frankly just do not believe that the Maple Leaf NEVER served Ithaca.   I recall a letter or report of a Cornel student traveling to Chicago via a Pullman on the Maple Leaf.   So please check your OG's and posibly you will find that at one time it did serve Ithaca.  And if the train itself did not run through to Chicago, there must have been a through Pullman or several at one time or another.  

Of course it is possible that there was an Ithaca setout and pullout Pullman to Chicago at one time that ran on a connecting train from Ithaca, but that seems unlikely.   Or did it run on a different LV train to connect with the CN's "own" Maple Leaf?

 

LV trains into Pennsylvania Station had train crews into Pennsyllvania Station, but the GG-1 or R-1 or P-5 locomotive crews were strickly PRR.   When the LV ran into Jersey City via Newark, the LV engine crews did run over the PRR through Newark to Jersey City.

 

If Henry wishes to ask the next question, by all means I'll be glad to defer to him.

Dave, I asked about the situation with the Maple Leaf sixty years ago, which was in 1950. In 1950, the The Maple Leaf did not go into Ithaca. I also asked about a city in New York State that the train bypassed. As I confessed, I should have specified that the bypassed city was served by trains of the same road that operated the Maple Leaf. I am sorry that I was not more specific. I did not ask about trackage rights; I asked about the roads that operated the train with their crews; the Guide and public timetables do not mention trackage rights, nor do they mention the situation in which an engine change, with an engine crew of a different road, is necessary; in this situation., the train was still a Lehigh Valley train, even though a PRR engine crew was necessary to enter Manhattan.

In 1930, #3, The Toronto-Chicago Express and #2, The Philadelphia-New York Express did carry a NYC-Chicago car, and they did not go through Ithaca; these trains were not called The Maple Leaf.

It is true that not everybody has the same specific information about train operation, and if one does not have the specific information that is requested, he can guess--and should not be disturbed if he guesses wrong and should be happy if he guesses right.

 

[henry6]

I alrady have pose the next question.   But at your behest, Dave, I rechecked my 1958 guide to confirm that the Maple Leaf did not run via Ithaca.  I also dug back to my July 1927 guide which of course does not show a "Maple Leaf" but does show a "Lehigh Limited" on virtually the same schedule with an additiona through car to Rochester; it also did not serve Ithaca but rather picked up passengers at Geneva from a connecting train.  If my memory serves via public and employee timetables, trains on this schedule never served Ithaca.  No where is there mentions of the Maple Leaf or the Lehigh  Limited having through cars to Chicago but only those cities we've stated and by CN connections only to or via Detroit. 

[daveklepper]

I would also note that I got all the railroads correctly and Henry did not.   I knew the TH&B only handled the through NYC-CP trains and none from the LV and CN.   But I also knew that the LVT had to use NYC trackage rights to serve Buffalo.   The short stretch of NYC track connected the LVT with the CN and was used by freights as well as passenger trains.

I frankly just do not believe that the Maple Leaf NEVER served Ithaca.   I recall a letter or report of a Cornel student traveling to Chicago via a Pullman on the Maple Leaf.   So please check your OG's and posibly you will find that at one time it did serve Ithaca.  And if the train itself did not run through to Chicago, there must have been a through Pullman or several at one time or another.  

Of course it is possible that there was an Ithaca setout and pullout Pullman to Chicago at one time that ran on a connecting train from Ithaca, but that seems unlikely.   Or did it run on a different LV train to connect with the CN's "own" Maple Leaf?

 

LV trains into Pennsylvania Station had train crews into Pennsyllvania Station, but the GG-1 or R-1 or P-5 locomotive crews were strickly PRR.   When the LV ran into Jersey City via Newark, the LV engine crews did run over the PRR through Newark to Jersey City.

 

If Henry wishes to ask the next question, by all means I'll be glad to defer to him.

[daveklepper]

I said the train bypassed Detorit so indeed it had nothing to do with Detroit.   The CN-GTW route always bypassed Detorit.  The CN served Detroit by car ferry from Windsor or indirectly via the Grand Trunk Western from Durand, where the Grand Trunk Western's Detroit line met its Chiciago - St. Clair main line.   The GTW did run a Chicago - Detroit passenger service via Durand, the last being the Mowhawk, which I road several times because the NYC had discontinued dining car service on what had been a fine Twilight Limted and the GTW ran a first class diner and comfortable coaches on the Mowawk.   I don't remember how the running times compared, but the GTW route certainly was no slough.   When I traveled between Toronto and Detroit it was on the CP's direct train which ran into the Michigan Central Station.   This route still has VIA service to Windsor.

[henry6]

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.  Happy Festivus, Kuanza, Channuka, and all other holidays and celebrations bringing peace, understanding, and love to the world at this time of year and for all of the years to come.

As I was poring over the last question I realized that there were eight railroads on the west bank of the Hudson River which through the 40's and into the 50's could get you from the Big Apple to Buffalo and beyond either directly or by connection or connecting rail services.  Can you name the railroads and the attending routings? 

[Deggesty]

Well, as I commented earlier, both Dave and Henry came up with answers. I should have been more specific and stated that the city that was bypassed was served by the same road’s other trains that were operated through the area, and Henry knew that Ithaca was the city that was bypassed.

Since I specified 1950 (sixty years ago), the end points of the train than ran through New York state was the Lehigh’s New York-Toronto train, and had no through service to Chicago, even though CN/GTW had an eb Maple Leaf that was a day train from Chicago to Toronto and overnight to Montréal (it connected at Hamilton with the train to New York City, but had no through service. So, NYC-Toronto were the main end points.

Dave, did PRR train crews handle the train into and out of Penn Station? I do not doubt that PRR engine crews were used between the Lehigh connection (or the junction with the electric line) and the station.

Henry gives the impression that there may have been a Philadelphia-Toronto sleeper in 1950; he is correct, and there was also a NYC-Buffalo sleeper, which was separated at Depew, during the station stop (the day train and the overnight NYC-Buffalo train did not stop at Depew; Amtrak is attempting to make up for this slight by stopping the Lake Shore Limited there, and not taking it into Buffalo).

As to breakfast service for Philly-bound passengers, they had to eat early and fast; in 1950 the diner (Ex SS) and buffet-lounge were put on at Lehighton (6:14 am) and the train arrived in Behtlehem at 6:55 am.

Dave gave us the name of the primary operator of the train, but Henry gave us the details, by definite statement (Ithaca), oblique statement (Depew for the stop and for switching the Buffalo car out/in), or positing (Philadelphia as a terminus) He also almost got the Niagara Falls-Toronto operation right.

Since Henry answered more of the questions, he has the responsibility to come up with a new question (sorry Dave, maybe you will get the next one in your care).

[henry6]

In the 1958 Guide it shows a stop at Depew, NY where I believe the train was cut with a sleeper and coach were cut off to Buffalo.  CN is showing making connections from Niagra Falls to Hamilton, Chicago, and Toronto.  No indication of the road for the Philadelphia sleeper' and coach but there is a note on the Eastward page :"...Passengers for Reading Co. points may have breakfast on No.8 before arriving Bethlehm...."

[Deggesty]

Now, if Dave and Henry get together, they may get all the answers. The train was, mainly, a Lehigh Valley train which served New York City and Toronto. Ithaca was the city that was bypassed (the other Lehigh trains, (Black Diamond & Star/#4) that went through the area dropped down into valley and climbed back out). However, the TH&B did not handle the train at all; the CN took the train between Niagara Falls and Toronto.

In 1950, what other cities were endpoints of through service? What other road, not named by either (this road does not mention the name of the Lehigh train that carried the through car), took part? At what town or community, not served by other Lehigh trains, did The Maple Leaf stop? 

[henry6]

Detroit had nothing to do with the LV route to Toronto...Niagra Falls to TH&B to CN.  The city bypassed by the Leaf was Ithaca; the Leaf went west over the normally freight only trackage instead of falling down into the Cayuga Lake city and climbing back up.

[daveklepper]

The Lehigh Valley was the main railroad that operated the Maple Leaf for many years.  At various times it was a Jersey City  -  Toronto train, a New York Penn Station - Toronto train, and also a New York - Chicago train, with cars to both Toronto and Chicago.   This train operated on the Pennsy, the Lehigh Valley, a short stretch of New York Central trackage rights in the Bufffalo area, the Canadian National, and of course the Grand Trunk Western for the CN's lines in the USA.  Plus a terminal trackage rights deal into Chicago, forget which railroad was involved.  As a NY - Chicago train, it bypassed Detroit, running through the St. Clair tunnel.   The train was served as a Grand Trunk Western - Canadian National train between Chicago and Toronto, and this probably outlasted the Lehigh Valley train of the same name.   This also bypassed Detroit.  I don't  recall the exact dates of which cars ran where, but the name was used for all these end-points at one time or another.  The last limited express on the CN - GTW Chicago - Toronto run was the International Limited, an overnight train, and I think the Maple Leaf was the day train.   In New York State. on the LV,  it bypassed Albany, Schenectady, Utica, and Syracuse, all stops on the Amtrak Maple Leaf.   At one time, it may have bypassed Buffalo running directly to Niagra Falls, without using the Central trackage rights, and possibly at another time it may have bypassed Niagra Falls going via Welland?  (not sure of the name).

[Deggesty]

Amtrak currently operates a train called Maple Leaf. Sixty years ago, there was a train called The Maple Leaf. What roads operated it and what cities did it serve with through service? What community in New York state did this train, alone of all trains operated by the main road, serve? What city in New York did it bypass?

 

[ZephyrOverland]

Deggesty

 

ZephyrOverland:

 

 

FlyingCrow:

Step up and ask the next question.

 

 

The Pennsy had a blue one,

The Lehigh Valley had a black one,

The IC had a green one,

What? And what were the endpoints?

 

The Lehigh's Black Diamond ran between New York and Buffalo, with through coaches Philadelphia-Buffalo

 

The IC's Green Diamond ran between Chicago and St. Louis.

I had never heard of the Pennsy's Blue Diamond. Did it run between the match box and the fire laid in the fireplace?

Johnny, you got the first two.  The PRR Blue Diamond ran for 6 months in the latter half of 1965 as an experimental run between Wilmington and Delmar.

Go ahead and ask the next question.

 

[Deggesty]

ZephyrOverland

FlyingCrow:

Step up and ask the next question.

 

The Pennsy had a blue one,

The Lehigh Valley had a black one,

The IC had a green one,

What? And what were the endpoints?

The Lehigh's Black Diamond ran between New York and Buffalo, with through coaches Philadelphia-Buffalo

The IC's Green Diamond ran between Chicago and St. Louis.

I had never heard of the Pennsy's Blue Diamond. Did it run between the match box and the fire laid in the fireplace?

[ZephyrOverland]

FlyingCrow

Step up and ask the next question.

The Pennsy had a blue one,

The Lehigh Valley had a black one,

The IC had a green one,

What? And what were the endpoints?

[FlyingCrow]

Zephyr...you've won the daily double, again.  

Around 45 years ago I traveled to Europe with a group from the SoCal area.    Among the group was a guy named Roy Crump.    In a loose conversation, he said "Oh, you probably have heard of my uncle, Spenser".

I'll say I had....  The author of "Ride The Big Red Cars"....America's largest interurban, Pacific Electric.

Step up and ask the next question.

 

 

[ZephyrOverland]

FlyingCrow

Ok.....my turn....here we go.

It's slogan was Comfort-Speed-Safety.     

Pacific Electric

[FlyingCrow]

Ok.....my turn....here we go.

It's slogan was Comfort-Speed-Safety.     

[henry6]

My Christmas trip is not so white

'Cause my answer is not quite right.

'Tis why my stocking's full of Anthracite!

So Flying Crow, your answer's right

venture a question as you might

Forget the Road of Anthracite!

[wanswheel]

Henry, thanks. You did get the essentials, very fast.  Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Now Phoebe's right
You'll expedite
The trip by road of Anthracite

[FlyingCrow]

That's good, but the actual line(s) are

Now Phoebe's right
You'll expedite
The trip by road of Anthracite

I have to hand it to the DL&W for being even more clever than Burma Shave.

Happiest of Holidays to ALL!!

[henry6]

But with gown of White

Miss Phobe's flight

'twas on the Road of Antrhacite!

 

Whatever!!!!  Mike, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.  Hope to see more of your wonderful finds for many New Years to come.  They are some of the best reasons to keep posted on these pages!

Thank S.!

[wanswheel]

A coach or sleigh
Was once the way
Of reaching home
On Christmas Day
.............................
.............................
.............................?

Mike

[FlyingCrow]

I check to Wanswheel.   I've had plenty of questions up lately.      

I should have known the answer, being a director of the ACL&SAL HS.     You learn stuff on here.

 

[ZephyrOverland]

wanswheel

Jacksonville in 1888

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F00F11F9385413738DDDAA0A94DA415B8884F0D3

St. Augustine in 1890

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F20B13FD3F5F10738DDDA80994D9405B8085F0D3

Knight's Key (Marathon) in 1908

http://books.google.com/books?id=HPnsBWABKwoC&pg=PT157

Wanswheel got the final destination - Knight's Key, near Marathon, midway on the Florida Keys.  The Florida Special operated to/from Knight's Key from 1908 until the Key West Extension was completed in 1912.  So, the southern termini that the (New York and) Florida Special operated to in its existance were:

Jacksonville

St. Augustine

Miami

Knight's Key

Key West

Flying Crow got two of them, SouthernGreen and Wanswheel got one each.  Flying Crow, you get the next question.  Good work, guys.

[ZephyrOverland]

daveklepper

After the hurricane destoryed the FEC link to Key West, passenger service was continued for a while south of Miami.   Possibly Fort Pierce was the southernmost point.   Whatever it was, it was most certainly for a while the southern terminous of the Florida Speical before cut back to Miami.

The only train that operated between Miami and Key West right before the 1935 hurricane was the Havana Special, which operated as a local between those two cities.  After the hurricane, the Havana Special was cut back to Miami and a local train was established between Miami and Florida City only, a distance of 30 miles.

Fort Pierce is 140 miles north of Miami.

[ZephyrOverland]

Deggesty

Palm Beach (the cars were taken off/added in West Palm Beach.

 

There were through cars to/from Palm Beach, but the Florida Special never utilized Palm Beach (or West Palm Beach) as an endpoint for the train.  On the other hand, the Seaboard Florida Limited, the main seasonal all-Pullman train of the SAL before the Orange Blossom Special came into being, did operate as a New York-Palm Beach train for a number of seasons.