I believe the last wooden equipment used in Grand central terminal were the baggage carts for the checked bags between the baggage room and the trains.
Al - in - Stockton
daveklepperCheck the guides of the 30's if you can. Possibly I should have said Harrisburg or Philadelphia and not Pittsburgh.
Johnny
Check the guides of the 30's if you can. Possibly I should have said Harrisburg or Philadelphia and not Pittsburgh.
And when did the WP move out of the SP's Oakland Mole? To essentially load and unload like a streetcar on a street?
daveklepperI believe there was on occasion one from Lake Placid to Pittsburgh and one from Rochester to Pittsburgh
I was surprised by the lack of response, but those with Official Guides should know more than i do. In addition to the on and off NY - Chicago via C&O sleeper, I believe there was on occasion one from Lake Placid to Pittsburgh and one from Rochester to Pittsburgh. If I am incorrect then whoever gives the correction should ask the next question. Otherwise I will.
With the lack of response equal to a shout, I will give one away: NY-Chicago via the C&O. Penn Station NY to Central Station Chicago via the Big Four. Anyone know the other one I know? Amd amy others?
I presume this is because until some time during the operation of the CZ, the WP used the SP Oakland Mole ferry terminal and had to use AT&SF trackage to access the SP?
Anyone come up with answers to the NYC-PRR question? I don't claim to know all the answers, just two, and there may be more.
Fuller Road Back to the business at hand. The Golden State and the Exposition Flyer.
passengerfanJust to clear up any confusion Al in Chicago is the one with the sinus infection and Al in Stockton is the one with tax clients.
Sorry, Al. Thanks for setting me (and anyone else) straight.
Deggesty al-in-chgoI'm sorry for the delay; sinus infection. I'm sorry to hear that, Al. I wish you well and trust that you will be able to only to join in again soon, but that you will also be able to take care of your tax clients. Johnny
al-in-chgoI'm sorry for the delay; sinus infection.
I'm sorry to hear that, Al. I wish you well and trust that you will be able to only to join in again soon, but that you will also be able to take care of your tax clients.
Just to clear up any confusion Al in Chicago is the one with the sinus infection and Al in Stockton is the one with tax clients.
By the way Al in Chicago hope you get over the sinus infection soon.
Here it is only February in the central valley and my allergies are bad already. We have had a lot of rain for us and usually don't have allergy problems when it rains.
daveklepperI know some answers. But can someone also tell me: Were there any sleeping car routes that used both the AT&SF and the SP?
Dave, I know of none that used both AT&SF and SP--remember, "Santa Fé all the way," as from Chicago to the West Coast. There was MP-SFe (New Orleans to either Oakland or LA), MP-TP-SP (St. Louis-LA).
Here is one: Name all the 1948 - 1954 era sleeping car routes that used both New York Central System and Pennsylvania Railroad trains.
I know some answers. But can someone also tell me: Were there any sleeping car routes that used both the AT&SF and the SP?
Deggesty ZephyrOverland Al-in-Chgo mentioned the Portland Rose, so he gets to ask the next question. C'mon, on, Al, can you give us a question? Johnny
ZephyrOverland Al-in-Chgo mentioned the Portland Rose, so he gets to ask the next question.
C'mon, on, Al, can you give us a question?
I'm sorry for the delay; sinus infection.
Would someone else like to post a question during my infirmity? Once I'm back on my feet I wouldn't mind offering a question if another gap looms . . . but that can wait.
Thanks,
al-in-chgo
ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
The Portland Rose was already mentioned. The two Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that preceeded the City of Portland and Portland Rose was the Chicago-Portland Special (or Portland-Chicago Special, as some timetables show), which existed from 1900 to the early teens. It was supplanted and eventually superseded by the Oregon-Washington Limited. Al-in-Chgo mentioned the Portland Rose, so he gets to ask the next question.
To answer your question. The first UP streamliner was the articulated, rather limited capacity City of Salinas, because the first streamliners, like the Pioneer Zephyr on the Q, were really upgraded and spiffed up doodlebugs. The second UP streamliner was the City fo Denver, with greater capacity, but still basically an articulated single train with dedicated locomotive as part of the train. The same characteristic, with somewhat different styling, was used for the City of Portland. The limited capacity and lack of flexibility of these mid-1930's trains did not severly hinder their use in their intended markets. But the City of Los Angeles and City fo San Francisco were different. The markets were larger, greater capacity was needed, plus flexibility, plus the need to add and drop cars (through service to and from Kansas City). and their inauguration had to await the development of EMD's (EMC at the time) E-series locomotives which were not integral with their trains, and also the development of lightweight non-articulated sleeping cars, coaches, diners, etc.
Al, The UP postwar daily City streamlined trains when they first entered service used an assortment of streamlined and not so streamlined cars including some heavyweights painted to match. Once the first postwar new equipment began arriving from the manufacturers it did not take long for the trains to be truly streamlined. Large RRs like the UP purchased passenger cars from several manufacturers such as Pullman Standard, American Car & Foundry, Budd and St. Louis Car. The Budd cars purchased by the UP were stainless steel under the yellow grey and red paint to match the cars from the other manufacturers. Hope that answers your questions Al.
FROM PRIOR POST:
Re: To keep things going why did th UP streamline the daily CITY OF PORTLAND
before the CITY OF LOS ANGELES or CITY OF SAN FRANCICO following WW II?
********
-- I think because of competitive reasons - the Empire Builder
was in line to receive streamlined equipment.
That's a great reason and I think we should see if it was indeed a reason or a contributing factor (that is, one of several good reasons that were used to assign the newer equipment to the Portland first. .
Another reason I can think of is pure speculation, but is it possible that the postwar passenger car company(ies) the UP contracted with couldn't at first provide enough passenger rolling stock for all three . . . and possibly early on not for the first to, if they had to use more cars than City of Portland.
Hopefully in UP's case "Streamlined" does not have to mean "fluted stainless steel exterior," but can also mean along the lines of "A+B diesel-electric locomotive(s) followed by new postwar passenger equipment under like livery." Probably at one point UPwith its big 1950s fleet had a few corrugated stainless coaches or sleepers, for run-throughs perhaps, but I always think of their own passenger cars, like the locomotives, decked out in [something] Yellow and Armour Gray.
Can't speak to the 1955 and after period; it's entirely possible that the Domeliners came clad in corrugated, little or none of which required adherence to livery. (I would think they wouldn't mix smooth and fluted cars, but I just don't know.
I do agree that slab-sides (I'm avoiding the term "lightweight" because that is so relative to time and technology) can make up a streamliner; just as I also consider the 20th Century Limited at the time NORTH BY NORTHWEST was made (1959) to be a streamliner -- it may also have to do with level of service as well as new equipment specifically bought for a train.
Naturally I am not trying to exclude UP from consideration because that would defeat the thread's purpose. I just want a heads-up on what "streamlined" meant in Postwar UP context. - al
passengerfanZephyrOverland al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s. Just to keep things going why did the UP streamline daily City of Portland first before City of Los Angeles or City of San Francisco following WW II ? al - in - Stockton That's one.... The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose. To keep things going why did th UP streamline the daily CITY OF PORTLAND before the CITY OF LOS ANGELES or CITY OF SAN FRANCICO following WW II?
ZephyrOverland al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s. Just to keep things going why did the UP streamline daily City of Portland first before City of Los Angeles or City of San Francisco following WW II ? al - in - Stockton That's one.... The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose.
al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s.
Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s.
al - in - Stockton
That's one....
The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose.
I think because of competitive reasons - the Empire Builder was in line to receive streamlined equipment.
I believe my question is still out there - I'm still looking for two feature Overland Route Chicago-Portland trains that existed before the City of Portland. The Portland Rose was already mentioned. Ill give this question another day.
ZephyrOverland al-in-chgo ZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s. Just to keep things going why did the UP streamline daily City of Prtland first before City of Los Angeles or City of San Francisco following WW II ? al - in - Stockton That's one.... The Portland Rose was the main Chicago-Portland train before the City of Portland was introduced. There are two more trains that existed before the Portland Rose.
al-in-chgoZephyrOverland Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935. Just to keep things going -- was there once a train called the Portland Rose? - a.s.
ZephyrOverland It's been quiet here for over a week. I guess KCSfan hasn't been around. So, to restart this thread I'll ask another question. Name the 3 principal Chicago-Portland Overland Route trains that existed from 1900 to the establishment of the City of Portland in 1935.
It's been quiet here for over a week. I guess KCSfan hasn't been around. So, to restart this thread I'll ask another question.
ZephyrOverlandMy my, its been quiet here the last couple of days. I'll give this through the weekend and if there are no more responses, I'll reveal the answers that I have on Monday.
My my, its been quiet here the last couple of days. I'll give this through the weekend and if there are no more responses, I'll reveal the answers that I have on Monday.
Maybe this question was a bit too esoteric. Its a fine line between labeling a train service as new and actually using "New" in the train name and using that term in passenger train schedules and consist listings. The following is what I had come up with and all of them utilized the term "New" with the train name, again in consist listings and schedules.
New Alton Limited - C&A - Chicago-St. Louis - ca. 1926New Black Hawk - CBQ - Chicago-Minniapolis - ca. 1930New Chicago Limited - CNW - Chicago-Minniapolis - ca. 1909New Crescent - PRR/SR/WoA/AWP/LN - New York-New Orleans - ca. 1950New Denver Zephyr - CBQ/DRGW - Chicago-Denver-Colorado Springs - ca. 1957New Dixieland - CEI/LN/NCStL/ACL/FEC - Chicago-Miami - ca. 1957New Empire Builder - CBQ/GN/SPS - Chicago-Seattle/Portland - ca. 1948New Georgian - CEI/LN/NCStL - Chicago/St. Louis-Atlanta - ca. 1948New Great Western Limited - CGW - Chicago-Minniapolis - ca. 1900New Overland Limited - CNW/UP/SP - Chicago-San Francisco - ca. 1916New Royal Palm - NYC/SR/FEC - Detroit-Miami - ca. 1949New Southland - LN/CoG/ACL - Cincinnati-St. Petersburg
Mark, since you submitted one of the correct answers, why don't you ask the next question.
Myron
This is not the only Forum that has been quiet.
Maybe most, in the northern hemisphere, are huddled around their fires or pot bellied stoves.
Alan, Oliver & North Fork Railroad
https://www.buckfast.org.uk/
If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there. Lewis Carroll English author & recreational mathematician (1832 - 1898)
DeggestyZephyrOverlandThe Southern named its winter season only Cincy - Florida streamliner the New Royal Palm to distinguish it from the year round Royal Palm. But, the New Royal Palm ran under that name for several winter seasons, and the Royal Palm was still operated between Cincinnati and Jacksonville. It was not a one season train, nor did it replace the Royal Palm. Johnny
ZephyrOverlandThe Southern named its winter season only Cincy - Florida streamliner the New Royal Palm to distinguish it from the year round Royal Palm.
But, the New Royal Palm ran under that name for several winter seasons, and the Royal Palm was still operated between Cincinnati and Jacksonville. It was not a one season train, nor did it replace the Royal Palm.
Yes that's true and I am still going to accept the New Royal Palm because the propose of "New" in New Royal Palm was to differentiate it from the regular Royal Palm and I believe the New Royal Palm did not last as long as the regular Royal Palm.
In my research into passenger train names, I have come across 11 trains which had the term "New" appended temporarily to the name in consist listings and schedules. One of the names I uncovered is:
New Chicago Limited - CNW - Minneapolis-Chicago - late 1909.
There are a few from the heavyweight era, but the balance resided in the lightweight era.
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