If I was to guess probably this came from Tammany Hall. Or someone contributing money somewhere. The reasons why Tammany backed the IND lines had much more to do with the potential for "campaign" contributions.
NYC politically during the 1920s was a cesspool. The court system was especially bad if you did not have bribe money. Part of the problem thou was everyone was making money so no one cared much, all you had to do was fork over a little money to "fix" things. It was how organized crime got to be such a problem. I would suspect there was a lot of money floating around a big construction project like the IND subway. The thing of it is thou is that the IND subway was the beginnings of the NYCTA and eventually the MTA. Without which the city would have been in serious difficulties when the IRT & BMT lines failed and were taken over by the city.
Rgds IGN
IGN, as you know, there was a Bob Hope flick.
http://movieart.net/wp-content/uploads/wpsc/product_images/full-beaujames%201sh%20rm-2.jpg
It seems improbable that Jimmy Walker himself would've been involved in negotiating for the removal of the ancient Hudson River RR tracks from 10th and 11th Avenues (by means of the High Line, much of which is now a city park, and the midblock cut from 35th St. to 60th St., which Amtrak uses every day), however it's clear that the huge and enormously expensive West Side Improvement Project of the 1930s began on his watch. Excerpt from New York Central Railroad Company Report of the Board of Directors to the Stockholders for the year ended December 31, 1929. Thanks Canada Southern.
What does the Times Tower in Times Square (the building where the ball drops on New Year's Eve) have in common with Dearborn Station?
Mike
Should have gotten that one. Forgot about him. So let us have the next question?
I guess I should clarify some of the things Jimmy Walker did for the construction of the Independent Lines The IND Lines were proposed by Motorman John Hylan. In order for construction of a municipal line to start in New York state numerous laws needed to be changed. At the time Jimmy Walker was President Pro Tempore of the State Senate and he (and his staff) advanced the legislation thru the senate then down to the assembly thence to the governor for passage. In the 1920’s government supported transit was controversial. By 1925 then mayor John Hylan had made a bad name for himself with the transit companies in the city(He never got over being fired by the BQT, later BMT) and they wanted him gone. Walker had made a name for himself primarily by being a populist. Amongst other thing he’d written several popular jazz tunes (the most popular Will you remember me in December as you did in May) . He’s also brought boxing back to NY state. Also Sunday baseball.(in those days people worked 6 days a week before the 40 hour work week). As Mayor he was in large part responsible for keeping the nickel subway fare. Despite the near bankruptcy of the IRT and the fact that the BMT had just exited Bankruptcy and was just hanging on. The franchises for both lines would expire in the 1930’s (I think) . In addition the competition of another transit system and the national financial collapse(the depression) ended with both companies eventually being absorbed by the city. (after he had left office) I’m not sure what to say about the corruption charges( He did take money, & used it to keep a cottage for himself and Betty). The thing I’ve heard from several family members was everyone was taking money. Mike I’d like to thank you for finding the pictures. Especially the one of Jimmy Walker and Miss Betty leaving the White House. Thx IGN
See also this
http://www.newyorkhistory.info/42nd-Street/jimmywalker.html
wanswheel Okay. I guess I gotta start thinking of a question to put. Here's one: Who exactly was Jimmy Walker? Mike
Okay. I guess I gotta start thinking of a question to put.
Here's one: Who exactly was Jimmy Walker?
Jimmy Walker, otherwise known as Beau James, was Mayor of New York City from 1925 to 1932.
He was supposed to be the M.C. of the opening of the IND subway. That morning he resigned as mayor under considerable political pressure for numerous scandals He then packed up and set sail for France with his then mistress and later wife the actess Betty Compton.
He was elected in 1925 and then reelected in 1929. One of the major campaign promises was keeping the subway fares a nickel.
see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimmy_Walker.
Wanswheel you question.
wanswheel http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/2371B634-0707-4579-BA49-D8BE0135CC96/U42227ACME.jpg http://www.gottahaveit.com/ItemImages/005174A_lg.jpeg http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/id?732578F http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/hec2009015763/?sid=b786bc028b0159935b03b32739763784
http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/2371B634-0707-4579-BA49-D8BE0135CC96/U42227ACME.jpg
http://www.gottahaveit.com/ItemImages/005174A_lg.jpeg
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/id?732578F
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/hec2009015763/?sid=b786bc028b0159935b03b32739763784
In these links is the answer.
Let me try this again
Thx IGN
daveklepperFDR?
FDR?
Additional FDR did not want to be anywhere near NYC due to a number of political complications.(Tamany Hall)
Was the man you are referring to Robert Moses? Not LaGuardia?.
La Guardia was not involved in the finance in Albany. Robert Moses was primarily a road and highway man. (indirectly Robert Moses was responsible for no expansion of the subway after WWII. As a clue the individual who was missing was there for important civic events from 1925 til 1932 in Top Hat and Tails.
Originally the BMT used numbers and the IRT nothing, not until the R-12 and R-14 cars arrived after WWII did the IRT use numbers. Instread the front of the train was identified by classification lamps, and the colors were listed in the various subway and elevated stations. I remember two reds for a Van Courtland Park bound express and a red and a green for a Bronx Park Express, with the reverse, green and then red for a Lexington Avenue Woodlawn train. Often routes would have different lights northbound and southbound because of the variety of destinations, such as Van Cortlandt trains going to South Ferry instead of Brooklyn on Sundays (switching to the local track at Chambers Stret.) The original letters of the IND and BMT were
A 8th Avenue Express, AA 8th Avenue Local, B, Sixth Avenue Express (not used until well after unification), BB Sixth Avenue Local, C 8th Avenue Express, CC 8th Avenue Local, D Sixth Avenue Express, DD Sixth Avenmue Local never used but on the role signs anyway), E 8th Avenue (Queens) Express, EE 8th Avenue (Queens) Local (used only for very short time), F Sixth Avenue (Queens) Express, FF Sixth Avenue Local (never used but on the role sign), GG Crosstown Local (Crooklyn - Queens), HH Fulton Street Local (actually used only for the Hoyt - Schermerhorn shuttle to the staton now used as the Transit Museum, Clark Street?)
1 Brighton Line, 2 Culver Line, 3, West End Line, 4, Sea Beach Line, 5, 4th Avenue Local, 6 Bay Ridge Elevated, 7 Franklin Avenue shuttle, 8 Astoria, 9 Flushing, 10 Lexington Avenue Elevated, 11 Myrtle Avenue, 12 Broadway (Brooklyn)-Jamaica, 13 Fulton Street, including Fulton - 14th Street rush hour steel trains only Multi articulateds and the Blue Bird light enough for the el structure in this service) 14 Broadway Brooklyn Short Line to Atlantic Avnue or Canarsy, 15 Myrtle Avenue regular steel trains to Manhattan via Williamsburg Bridge, and 16 14th Street - Canarsie.
narig01 daveklepperIn anay case, IGN, the quesiton is yours to ask. Ok I'll do one from family history( I should say personal family history). In 1932 New York City opened up the 8th Av Subway, which was a city project not a private corporation. Their were plans of a Grand Opening, however these plans were for not because a politician failed to show and the turnstiles were just opened to the crowd that had gathered. Who was missing and why. As a hint I'll say that his role was as much in Albany(the state capital) as well as in the city. Rgds IGN I'll try to keep up on this. It should be easier as I'll be at the house this week. Thx IGN
daveklepperIn anay case, IGN, the quesiton is yours to ask.
Ok I'll do one from family history( I should say personal family history).
In 1932 New York City opened up the 8th Av Subway, which was a city project not a private corporation. Their were plans of a Grand Opening, however these plans were for not because a politician failed to show and the turnstiles were just opened to the crowd that had gathered.
Who was missing and why. As a hint I'll say that his role was as much in Albany(the state capital) as well as in the city.
I'll try to keep up on this. It should be easier as I'll be at the house this week.
Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia had to be in Albany (State Cap.) to look for funding because NYC faced bankruptcy.
BTW the IND was considered to have been "built by the city," unlike the prior IRT (original) and BMT (later), which had been franchised by the city as public corporations but had gone bankrupty by the mid-to-late Twenties. But the IND despite its being a take on "Independent," never was owned by any entity other than a municipal gov't or transit agency thereof.
Although the New York subway people abolished the distinctions between the three divisions years ago, you can still tell them by the fact that the IRT uses only numbered line (and that the only line going to Queens is the no. 7 - Flushing). BMT has letters from the middle of the alphabet on "N," "RR" such. The old IND uses letters A - E. Why they got the first half of the alphabet since they were last to open is beyond me. Perhaps there was some reapportionment.
Although technical running standards, heights and clearances, and platforms should make the kinds of equipment used on former BMT lines fully compatible with those of the IND, that has proved problematic. The public now rarely uses the old three-later abbreviations but the IRT is its own bird with narrower tunnels and platforms (and with one or two exceptions, the only cut-and-fill tunnels, running up Broadway).
If you're wondering why some of the free transfers between lines of different origins require lots of walking and sometimes there aren't any free transfers among lines that cross with adjacent stations -- that's because many of the free transfers were retro-fits bridging previously competitive lines that weren't really meant to facilitate change from one system to the other.
Chyrstie Street downtown is a very popular transfer point for people going from the outer boroughs to midtown to work, and then home again. This is also one of a very few places where (again, previously) competitive systems crossed at grade level. There have also been a couple of accidents at Chrystie over the years, and I know at least one of which was a snafu in which the train had not been switched over to the diverging track, and even at low speed one of the cars was basically torn in two, as the wheels on part of one side diverged with track, but the remainders stayed on original line.
I doubt this will answer the question fully but when you go online tomorrow, let me know if I knew(guessed) anything right!
Thanks, al
You are absolutely correct. They were the Chico, CA Birneys, which had to go to Sacramento for regular overhaul. And they were the last pasenger service on the SN, after Marysville-Yubaville local service was discontinued and the Sacramento local streetcar merged into the Pacific Gas and Electric streetcar system and combined with the Central Califonria Traction local streetcar, also merged, about 1944. Brackerts were temporarly attached to the truck side frames to hold the third rail shoes, with cables on each side runing up the side of the car, outside, to the trolley poles, and the cars operated on their own power over the third rail stretch between Chico and Sacramento. I did not see this in person, but it is sort of the reverse of what the original East Boston Tunnel rapid transit cars did to get to the Harvard Square (Bennet Street) Shops on the Cambridge - Dorchester Tunnel. 62 was one of about five Birneys assigned to Chico. The line was only on the SM main, with no streetcar-only routes, and the line was extended about a mile north during WWII to reach an Army or Air Force base, for both Birney passenger and trolley frieght service. The streetcars were very heavily used during WWII.
The two State of PA trolley and third rail operations were the LVT Liberty Bell over the Philadelphia and Western into the 69th Street Temrinal, mentioned, and the Laural Line between Scranton and Wilksbarre, which was third rail except for trackage within Wilksbarre itself, where all the grade crossings were, and this was trolley wire. Oh, yes, also the South Scranton freight branch, which I walked, not ride, in the snow, winter of 1949-1950.
Other trolley and third rail operations inlcude CRT/CTA Lake Street and Garfield Park (with the trolley only Mannheim branch), the conduit and trolley operatons in Washington, Frendship Heights, Cabin John, NOrth Capitol-Branchville, and Benning, the latter also used by the WB&A, and New York's short-lived Third Avenue service over the Manhattan Bridge to Brooklyn's LIRR Atlantic Avenue and Flatbush Avenue Terminal, their original lines to Yonkers cut back with the changeover unnecessary when the IRT reached Van Courtlandt Park-242 St., Willis Avenue-125th Street, and 149th Street Crosstown. Anyone think of some more? There were some other interurbans that we have not mentioned.
In anay case, IGN, the quesiton is yours to ask.
There were 332 different transit properties worldwide that operated four-wheel (single-truck) Birney Safety cars. Only one ever ran them regularly for a particular reason while equipped with third rail shoes. These cars regularly ran with their trolley poles in ordinary streetcar service but had to reach the shops via third rail trackage. They also were the last nickle fare streetcars in the world. They were also the very last passenger service of the specific interuruban line.
Whose Birney cars were they, where did they regularly run, and where were the shops that maintained them?
WAG The last nickel streetcar was the Sacramento Northern Birney in Chico, Ca. Specifically SN 62. I do not remember specificly were they were maintained(Marysville, CA I think). Also I do not remember having seen any place for third rail shoes on this car. I used to run this car at Rio Vista many many years ago.
Narig... is the only winner since he did first identify the New Haven Line of Metro North and the former NYNH&H line out of Grand Central. The old changeover point, from 1910 to just a few years ago was at the Woodlawn Junction where NYNH&H trains entered NYC Harlem Div. tracks, but now the third rail overlaps the catenary into Nt. Vernon Station so the changeover can be made on level relatively straight track.
He also did call up the reference to the Boston Blue LIne. You should have gotten this earlier, since I did write the the newest commuter equpment (the M8 cars currently being delivered to the New Haven Line of Metro North) could (but as yet have not) run to a station within walking distance of the Blue Line. And, indeed, the new M8's can run under Amtrak power, old Pennsy power, as well as Metro North's 60Hz 12,500V. So some day they probably will run to South Station just for testing. And the Aquairium Station is within easy walking distance of South Station.
The changeover point of the Boston's Blue Line was Maverick Station, the old streetcar-rapid transit across-the-platform interchange station, but now it is the Airport Station where there is a shuttle bus to all Logan terminals.
But since it took so long for you to answer, and the answer is not complete, I challange you to do the research on the ramifications of the complete answer. The reference is one of the old interurban lines that has been mentioned above but no longer runs.
narig01 daveklepper Yes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains. Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory. Is this what your looking for? http://world.nycsubway.org/us/boston/blue.html
daveklepper Yes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains. Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory.
Yes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains.
Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory.
Just a guess on the tunnel origin - extended line hint. Really a WAG:
Philadelphia - Center City - former Reading RR station and possibly connection to "Suburban" (at that time PRR) station, or {how short is short?} possibly all the way west to the WPA-era 30th St. Station, one of the reasons of its building to be (IIRC) so that PRR NY-DC's electrified line didn't have to curve or wye thru Center City. Downstairs at that very elegant station below the NEC platforms is still where you can get one of the "R" lines to the airport and a couple other "R" line, but I can't recal precisely. Line expanded to north and west toward and beyond Norristown in what is now known as SEPTA's R5 line, I think (or rather, WAG). I am also hypothesizing this because the exx-Reading's suburban-electrified-line transmission towers (not the cat works) were (and are) large towers straddling or spanning the tracks. They look a great deal like l-d electric transmission towers of the 1950s or 1960s, left leg and right leg (say) spanning the tracks, then curving gently up to more of a solid tower with crossbars and then "arms" holding power lines Where the insulators go. Structural design (not incl. wires) kind of like the Eiffel Tower in miniature, but not so phallic. That look is still very common in lots of the USA, but I've never seen its like on any electrified suburban line except the exx-Reading segments of SEPTA (not that I've seen 'em all).
One major prob. with this analysis occurs to me -- there may well be others.....SEPTA's suburban heavy-rail commuter lines use "R" plus a number; they are not color-coded that I know of. Nor are the subway and elevated lines, or the lines descended from trolleys or Interurbans. Your reference to Brill made me *** up my ears, though. ;) - al
daveklepperYes, and of course the North Shore's Milwaukee Expresses and Limiteds via the Skokie Valley Route switched between trolley poles and third rail at the same poitn that Skolkie Swift did, and long ago there was a local Chicago Rapid Transit Dempster Street service that may have lasted into the CTA era, supllimenting the North SDhor's trains. And the North Shore's Shore Line route trians to Waugeghan and Highland Park did the same thing at the same spot as the CTA Evanston trains did. The Ocean Electric sugsidiary of the PRR use dtrolley poles in Altantic City and Ocean City, but third rail on track shared with first the PRR and then with PRSL freight trains. Hint for the Blue Line? The original service was a trolley tunnel. Around 1926 it was converted to a third rail rapid transit line with the smalles rapid transit cars ever used in a USA rapid transit line. The trolley wire was kept for work equpment. Not having a complete shop of its own, just a small uderground running repair and inspection shop at one end of thel line,. from the other end cars were hauled by work equpment or ran on their own power with a trainman holding a portable trolley pole against the wire while leaning our of the rear car rear train door (I saw this!) late at night to connection over former streetcar tracks to what is now the Red Line where the cars could again run under third rail power to that line's main shop. In 1952 the line was extended considerably, also involving end of streetcar service in the area where the line was extended, and then was extended further, with both extensions using catenary. Part of the first extension and all of the second is on the right of way of an electric railway that went out of business in January 1941, after having been electrified in 1929. After the electrification, one of the old 2-4-4T steam locomotives was kept to probide heat for the shop. Passenger service was with the old wood open platform coaches electrified with two motors in one truck and mu controls. Plus two former streetcar Brill semi-converable WWI era streetcars were purchased and retrucked and used for one-man night service. In WWII most of the cars went to Hawai. some to Alaska and the Yukon Territory.
daveklepperThwe State of Pennsylvania had at least two cases well after WWII.
One of the Pennsylvania lines , Lehigh Valley Transit(?) From Allentown to Philadelphia. Changed from overhead to 3rd rail at Norristown and ran to 69th st on P&W. (all 600v DC)
Also for thought Third Av Railways in NYC ran in conduit in Manhattan and had overhead in the Bronx. Not sure where they changed
Being on the road I don't have any of my reference books, so I am doing this from memory of what I read and heard.
By the by one of Sacramento's light rail lines is a blue line. I think it was also a Sacramento Northern Line. The SN in its day had numerous stretches of 3rd rail and then went to overhead in towns with street running.
Also in Seattle(forgot the name) there was an interurban line that had both 3rd rail and overhead. In William Middleton's book Interurban Era it describes this line as actually having moved the 3rd rail in sections from one location to another.
Amongst others the Key Route used overhead east of the SF Bay Bridge but used 3rd rail on the Bridge. This was inspite of the fact that there was overhead strung up for the SP's Interuban Electric Ry, that was discontinued in 1940
The Skokie Swift started service in April 1964, the change-over point from third rail to overhead was at East Prairie Rd (Crawford Av). The cars assigned to the service were equipped with pan trolleys (not pantographs) and CTA added an airfoil to maintain an upward pressure on the overhead at speed.
The Evanston line changed over from third rail to overhead at South Blvd Station. The overhead was direct suspension and the cars were equipped with trolley poles.
narig01's message:
The commuter railroad. Metro North / Conn DOT ex New Haven. Pantograph operation @ 12.5Kv 25Hz. Then 3rd rail to Grand Central. The 3rd rail is an underrunning (rail on top, shoe presses up)
I've been waiting all week to have the time and place to throw this answer out there.
Prior Message:
daveklepper OK, now tell us which is the Blue Line rapid transit line that visually does exactly the same thing,, with of course the important difference that both the third rail and the catenary are 600V DC Also where does the New Haven Line perform the change now and where did it perform it orginally. Ditto the Blue Rapid transit line. Now Skokie Swift, the North Shore, the CA&E, the Washington Baltimore and Anapolis, and the PRR subsidiary Atlantic City - Ocean Cioty interuruband (did it twice) have been mentioned. Give as much data as you might know about them, and any other operation, and there are many, that have not been mentnioned and that have existed in the past. For example, the steam railroads that are now the southern portions of the B, D, F, and N subway lines in NY were origibnally on the surface and were originally electrified with overhead trolley wire, often still used by some steam trains, and sometimes with steam, streetcars, and mu elevated trains on the same tracks! (Incidentally, yes South Brooklyn, Fl;atbush, Kings Park, people still say "take the train, not the elevated, not the subway. Friends visiting Brooklyin have reported that fact.) So when the el trains came off the Fulton Street or Fifth Avenue elevated structiure, at some point they changed from third rail to overhead wire. Thwe State of Pennsylvania had at least two cases well after WWII. Lots of other cases, so let's contribute to a master list.
OK, now tell us which is the Blue Line rapid transit line that visually does exactly the same thing,, with of course the important difference that both the third rail and the catenary are 600V DC
Also where does the New Haven Line perform the change now and where did it perform it orginally.
Ditto the Blue Rapid transit line.
Now Skokie Swift, the North Shore, the CA&E, the Washington Baltimore and Anapolis, and the PRR subsidiary Atlantic City - Ocean Cioty interuruband (did it twice) have been mentioned. Give as much data as you might know about them, and any other operation, and there are many, that have not been mentnioned and that have existed in the past.
For example, the steam railroads that are now the southern portions of the B, D, F, and N subway lines in NY were origibnally on the surface and were originally electrified with overhead trolley wire, often still used by some steam trains, and sometimes with steam, streetcars, and mu elevated trains on the same tracks! (Incidentally, yes South Brooklyn, Fl;atbush, Kings Park, people still say "take the train, not the elevated, not the subway. Friends visiting Brooklyin have reported that fact.) So when the el trains came off the Fulton Street or Fifth Avenue elevated structiure, at some point they changed from third rail to overhead wire.
Thwe State of Pennsylvania had at least two cases well after WWII.
Lots of other cases, so let's contribute to a master list.
Awwwn, maaan, Al whined. We're so close! Can't you give us a hint about this blue line? Is it possibly in Canada not USA? Looking at the bimodal power collection, was there ever an era during which one portion was operated by a pvt rwy or interurban company while at the same time the other was under municipal or other gov't ownership? Did the two lines have a terminal point in common whereby the traveler / commuter could walk from the end of one line to the beginning of the other? And at some point in the past was it possible (or necessary) for the traveler / commuter to pay two fares? Does this metro area have more than, say, three genuine RT lines? How far back is the oldest (passenger-carrying) route that's part of the line. Is custom equipment necessary, and if so is it "shopped" (in house) or "shipped" (sent to remanufacturer)?
I think any such info you'd be willing to share might nudge us to a better answer. I am dying to research this topic (it isn't hard finding subway maps or RT maps around the world, these days), but I won't.
I can add a little extra background about the Skokie Swift (Yellow Line, though that term is not used as often as "the Swift"). We already know that it runs from the Evanston/Chicago border at Howard Street. It runs non-stop from there to its terminus on Dempster St. in Skokie about 1/2 mile east of the Edens Expy (I-94). It is the last vestige of the old Skokie Valley route of the Chicago North Shore, and as I mentioned, the power came from shoe from Howard to west of McCormick Road in Skokie, where it would "land" at ground level adjacent to the CTA shops, where it switched to pantograph on the fly. That lasted up to about two years ago; and it is all third-rail now.
History: The infrastructure sat unused from 1963 to 1970, when the CTA got ahold of the land, fixed up the infrastructure, put in paid parking at the Skokie end, and christened the service the "Skokie Swift." Then as now, a free across-the-platform transfer was made at the Howard Street station, to what are now called the Purple and Red Lines and to the rush-hour Evanston Express (I'm not sure if it has its very own color). The Swift was very popular though mostly with commuters. In fact, for a long period it didn't run on Saturdays (except possibly during the Taste of Chicago fest).
I'll be lurking around this topic . . . dying to learn more! - al
Al, you know the answer. YOu mind is just blocking on it. First of all, what city has a Blue LIne heavy rapid transit line. What power does it use? Then go through all the commuter operations in the USA and tell us visually, excerpt for such minor details as to what type of pantograph or is a trolleiy pole or is it bow collector, etc, or where the third rail if any may be located, etc, gor through every commuter eperation that you can think of on a specific line basis. The two services, the rapid transit line and the commuter line are both very well known. Further hint: The rapid transit line obviusly just used mu cars, but the railroad commuter line has used in its history both locomotives and mu cars, and for most of its history both types at once.
KCSfan Al, One correction is in order. The North Shore cars drew their power from the overhead by means of trolley poles not pantographs. Mark
Al,
One correction is in order. The North Shore cars drew their power from the overhead by means of trolley poles not pantographs.
Mark
I stand corrected . . . but I'm still waiting for the other shoe to drop. - al
daveklepper So, go ahead and answer the question. As thoroughly and completely as you can.
So, go ahead and answer the question. As thoroughly and completely as you can.
Thanks for the encouragement. What I put down is pretty much everything I know, so I'll be satisfied with .5 of an answer and hope that someone soon comes in and completes it -- then it's their prize. I am considering the Swift the last vestige of the old Chicago North Shore so any shoe (L) vs. pantograph (interurban) mixed-mode running, like the Electroliners from Chgo to Milw up to 1963, would not count as a new location or system for me. But sure, if that's what you had in mind I won't mind taking it.
I can think of one example in which diesel (cab) HEP hauls commuter trains over the same lines as the electrified runs under catenary: that's NICTD (former CSS&SB), which resorts to the Metra style cabs (not sure if they're push pull or not, but it would make sense) for some additional rush hour service, primarily Gary to "Millenium" (former IC Electric) station in downtown Chicago. Also when the line's cat comes down, which given high winter's tendency to snow/ice in NW Indiana happens more than "freak" frequency, skeds are truncated and the diesels have to do as much work as possible. That would count as a bimodal power on the same line, but as I believe your question had to do with different ways the electricity gets to the motors my remark doesn't apply. But it is interesting, esp now that NICTD has gone to bilev gallery-style coaches like pretty much of all Metra. NICTD was the last holdout of single-level cars as far as I know, with possibly one of the old privately owned "club" cars the very rare exception. Interesting, but boring too, since any (non-Amtrak) commuter runs involve bilev. gallery coaches and the only main difference in transport is whether the energy comes from wires or diesel-electric cab or locomotive HEP.
I've racked my brain for bimodal power distribution along the style of the Skokie Swift and can't think of anything in N. America that I'm sure fits. I have a hunch it's somewhere in NY/NJ metro but that's just a hunch born of process-of-elimination. As for SEPTA, those lines stay on wires, even the underground streetcars and the "R" lines that run under the train station (IIRC). PATCO is shoe all the way IIRD. Somebody prove me wrong!
Don't get me wrong, I love wires too! - al
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