Classic Railroad Quiz (at least 50 years old).

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 14, 2017 2:35 AM

The separate interurban line used the tracks of this city system to reach downtown, and at the other end of its line used the tracks of a much larger system to reach downtown.  Again, it was a successful interuban line, and highway construction doomed it.

Osgood Bradley built the lightweight and possibliy the older cars of the city system.  Osgood Bradley was bought by Pullman who used the plant to build PCCs and trolleybuses and troop sleepers.

Birney 2350 at Shore Line (Branford) was built by Osgood Bradley.  So were a lot of the Boston Type Fives.

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 12:53 AM

Doesn't anyone know where the Pullman ex-OB plant was located?  Did that city have a street railway system?  Connected by an interurban to a larger city?

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Posted by wanswheel on Tuesday, April 18, 2017 2:48 PM

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 20, 2017 8:55 AM

WW, look forward to your question.  By the time Pullman bought the OB plant, I believe the B&W was already a bus line.  The abandoned in stages, as required by highway construction, with the Framingham -Boston portion continuing after Worcester - Framingham went bus.  They continued to be solvent.  Also, by that time the track connection of the streetcar system to the Pullman plant was gone.  Still, it would have cost very little to try one of the Dallas PCCs on the Worcester streetcar system.  From pictures, the streetcars seem well maintained and clean to the end of streetcar operation, and all those running during WWII found South American buyers.

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Posted by Miningman on Thursday, April 20, 2017 12:01 PM

What a shame ...rails gone, plant gone, skills gone, HQ building now a condo. Don't tell me that an interurban service on rails would not be useful as it existed. Progress? Yeah, OK, sure it is! Enjoy that highway. 

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, April 20, 2017 3:05 PM

Stretching the 50-year rule a little bit, on grounds the locomotives were built in 1951 and 1952, what Amtrak train did NYC 4038 and PRR 5716 help pull on Sept. 29, 1972?

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/330643/

http://www.railpictures.net/photo/143721

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 20, 2017 3:25 PM

Was that the pre-inaugural Montrealer/Washingtonian?  Ex-PC E8s were the normal power in the early years north of New Haven (with an occasional borrowed CN F9B).  The train itself started operation on Sept 30, 1972.  CN crews Montreal-St. Albans, CV crews St. Albans-White River Jct., B&M crews White River Jct-Springfield MA, PC crews Springfield-New Haven-New York-Washington.  It even carried a Montreal-Miami sleeper for one season.

Speed Limits ranged from 35-50MPH between White River Jct and Springfield, a bit lower than today's 50-79MPH.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, April 20, 2017 3:36 PM

Yes Rob, except it was the actual first run, lead by NYC 4036.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/alcomike/22801038561

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 20, 2017 8:03 PM

I was under the impression that the Sept 29th northbound trip was a positioning trip for the start of service on Sept 30 and not a revenue trip.  Happy to have been mistaken.

Amtrak 60 and 61 were listed in CN/CV and B&M employee timetables as 733-27  and 26-732 respectively up to at least 1987.  An eastbound to Amtrak, 60 was Northbound (Outbound) on B&M and Westbound on CV/CN, hence the odd numbers. CN posted the train numbers as 27 and 26 at Central Station in Montreal to avoid confusion with Montreal-Toronto Rapidos 60 and 61.

Pine Tree State, an ex-PC/NYNH&H 6 DBR Lounge, was a nice touch.  Along with Nutmeg State, it was built for the CN/CV/B&M/NYH&H/PRR Montrealer/Washingtonian by Pullman-Standard in 1955.  Two similar cars (Keystone State and Bay State) were built at the same time for the Federal.  The buffet-lounges were set up to supply light meal and beverage service for 12-15 passengers to eliminate the need for a dining car.  Now privately-owned Pullman Dover Harbor and sister Dover-series cars were used on the Montrealer/Washingtonian until the State cars were delivered.

Since I found the book with the info, the rest of the consist is worth a look.

4036 and 4038 were both ex-NYC, 4316 (nee PRR 5716A) was the first unit to get an Amtrak arrow (on a black body). 4036 and 4038 were later Amtrak 256 and 257, 4316 was later Amtrak 322 and 461.

70 seat Coaches 7000, 7002 and 7003 were ex-RF&P, all built for the Old Dominion in 1947 (ACF)

Coach 3952 was an ex-PC snack bar coach rebuilt by PC in 1969 from a 64-seat coach built for NYC in 1946 (P-S)

56-seat coach 5611 ex-SCL/SAL, built for the Silver Meteor in 1939 (Budd)

56-seat coach 5613 ex-SCL/SAL, built for the FEC Henry M. Flagler in 1939 (Budd)

Diner-Lounges 8300 and 8301 ex-C&O, built for the Chessie 1948 (Budd)

10 Rmt 6 DBR Pacific series cars ex-UP (50 cars, Amtrak got 43) built 1950 (Budd)

6 DBR Buffet Lounge Pine Tree State ex-PC/NYNH&H for the Montrealer/Washingtonian 1955 (P-S)

Amtrak's Montrealer was my "home" train until it was dropped in 1995, the Vermonter serves that role today.

I'll try to post a new question tomorrow.

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Posted by wanswheel on Thursday, April 20, 2017 9:14 PM

rcdrye

56-seat coach 5611 ex-SCL/SAL, built for the Silver Meteor in 1939 (Budd)

Perhaps that car was at the N.Y. World's Fair station on Feb. 2, 1939.

http://streamlinermemories.info/?p=2378

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, April 21, 2017 6:26 AM

Looks like Pine Tree State is still around, and looking good.

Pine Tree State 

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, April 21, 2017 1:24 PM

Other than some experimental trains with power cars or locomotives on each end, only two non-electric streamliners were designed so that the consist, or at least most of it, didn't have to be turned at the end of the run.  Name both trains.

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Friday, April 21, 2017 9:22 PM

Reading's steam-hauled Crusader and New Haven's RDC-esque Roger Williams.  The latter did not just have a power car at each end, the intermediate cars were powered too.

EDIT:  I belatedly realized that New Haven's Comet may be a better answer than the Roger Williams.  

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Posted by rcdrye on Saturday, April 22, 2017 5:15 PM

The Crusader is one.  The other was postwar, two consists worth.  The Roger Williams, intermediate RDCx-es or not, had a power car at each end and doesn't qualify.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 23, 2017 9:59 AM

The Crusader operated as the Chaleur between Montreal and Toronto for the CN after RDCs replaced the Crusader Budd equipment in Reading Terminal - Jersey City service.

I believe the Flambau 400 or whatever the double-deck C&NW train was called was not turned at each end.  Whether or not it was called a streamliner is a good question.  

And also possibly the Sunbeam-Hustler pair of the SP.

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, April 23, 2017 10:56 AM

In addition to the Penninsular abd Flamue 400s, I think the AT&SF Golden Gates were originally intended not to be turned.  These operated on the "Valley Line" with a bus connection at each end to give an SF-LA trip with less time than either SP rout.  And the Surfliners were not turned. LA - San Diego in my experience, but this may not have been original.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, April 24, 2017 9:10 AM

The trainsets for the later train were only used briefly as built, being replaced by only slightly newer cars due to to a merger.  Five car non-turning sets, with two cars and the locomotive moving to the other end at each terminal.

The Golden Gates were turned at both Bakersfield and Oakland.  Each consist had a baggage-coach and a coach-observation.  Surf Line trains were nearly identical, and were turned on a wye south of the San Diego station that's still used today, though less often, as today's Pacific Surfliners have cab cars.

None of the C&NW "400"s were originally equipped for push-pull.  As far as I remember, only the "Commuter 400" between Chicago and Milwaukee ever operated with a cab car, which was not one built for long-haul service.  Amtrak did add cabs to the ex-C&NW "400" cars it acquired in the 1970s.

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Monday, April 24, 2017 1:34 PM

rcdrye

Five car non-turning sets, with two cars and the locomotive moving to the other end at each terminal.

The original Pere Marquette consists?  Which were replaced with some of the equipment from the cancelled Chessie after the PM-C&O merger was completed.  I am not familiar with their operation, but maybe the locomotive and the baggage/mail cars would be turned, while the rest of the train would not?

Also Dave the Crusader equipment was originally kept as a complete set and run between Montreal and Quebec City as the Champlain, before being split up and the cars finding their way onto pretty much every train in Ontario and Quebec; I believe they lasted until VIA was formed before being retired.  Both observation cars survive today, one in Strasburg and the other apparently is owned by Iowa Pacific.

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Posted by rcdrye on Monday, April 24, 2017 1:58 PM

SD70M-2Dude
The original Pere Marquette consists? Which were replaced with some of the equipment from the cancelled Chessie after the PM-C&O merger was completed.

The five car sets had a coach and coach-observation on each end and a diner-lounge in the middle.  The cars were replaced by cars originally intended for the Chessie or other C&O trains in 1949 or 1950, after which both sets were sold to the C&EI.  The baggage and baggage-RPO cars were turned on each trip, along with the assigned E7s.

You did end up with both trains, so you are up!

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Monday, April 24, 2017 2:19 PM

I had considered all of Dave's guesses as well, the Pere Marquette didn't seem right either until I looked at the consist listing again and noticed the two observation cars.

Sticking with streamliners, in the late 1930s a new class of high-speed steam locomotives with an unusual wheel arrangement were built for short daytime passenger runs.  Originally they pulled equally new lightweight equipment, but as time wore on they migrated off their original runs and could even be found hauling freight on occasion.  The railway intended to save one after dieselization, but due to a mix-up all were scrapped.  However there are survivors of a sister class from the same railway with the same wheel arrangement.

Name the railroad and locomotive type.

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Posted by Miningman on Monday, April 24, 2017 3:55 PM

Have to disqualify myself as I'm a) too close to that for it to be fair b) at that Public Relations thing and cannot pose a question. 

However, point of interest, the lettering on the tender's and cab's of the initial class were done in genuine 24 K gold. 

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Posted by daveklepper on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 2:49 AM

Obviously the original 4-4-4 Jubilee CP locomotives with 80-inch or even larger drivers.  Later 4-4-4s (also CP) had smaller drivers, and one survives at Steamtown, don't know where the other two are.

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Posted by rcdrye on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 8:19 AM

4-4-4 F-1a and F-2a "Jubilee". Canadian Pacific 1936-1937 (Montreal Locomotive Works)

4-4-4 J-1 "Lady Baltimore" Baltimore & Ohio (also ran on Alton) 1934 B&O shops

CPR had 25 in two classes.  Used with four car trains on short routes (Montreal-Quebec, Toronto-Detroit, Calgary-Edmonton).  Less slippery than B&O's, they were still too light for most services.  One of them claimed the Canadian speed record of 112.5 MPH.  Shrouded a bit, but not fully streamlined. CPR Maroon, some had gray boilers.

B&O's J-1 Light, slippery (Adhesion factor 3.29) not particularly successful even with lightweight trains.  Not really streamlined, but prettied up a bit.  B&O Blue.

Other 4-4-4's I've been able to find were 4-4-4Ts built in the 1890s for Chicago suburban service, and four Reading engines built in 1915 and quickly converted to 4-4-2 Atlantics.

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Posted by SD70M-2Dude on Tuesday, April 25, 2017 11:53 AM

daveklepper

the original 4-4-4 Jubilee

We have a winner, the next question is yours Mr. Klepper.

Only 2 of the later class survive, as mentioned 2929 is at Steamtown and 2928 is at the Canadian Railway Museum in Delson, Quebec.

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Posted by daveklepper on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 4:17 AM

After successful operation of a then state-of-the-art prototype rapid-transit subway-elevated train or car, a large order was placed and then less than a year later, abruptly cancelled.  Five cars were in production, and would have to be paid for even if not delivered.  These cars were delivered and operated in service for thirteen years.  The prototype saw only occasional use.

Which system, which cars, reason for the desing, reason for the cacnelation of the order.

And your opinion of the whole matter if you choose to state it.

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Posted by rcdrye on Wednesday, April 26, 2017 10:09 AM

The articulated Bluebird (three sections, four trucks) was built by Clark Equipment, the maker of most PCC trucks, for Brooklyn and Manhattan Transit in 1939.  Numbered 8000 it served as a prototype for a 50-unit order placed in 1940.  Five units 8001-8005 were built as part of the cancelled order.

BMT was purchased by the City of New York soon after the order was placed.  The City's other transit operators weren't interested in anything new, and continued to order what were basically the same cars that had previously been used on the B Division (former IND), to which the former BMT lines were added.

The 8000 seems to have spent most of its service life on the Franklin Avenue shuttle, since it didn't have couplers.  The other cars ran on the Canarsie line, and maybe some others, but mostly as extra trippers.

My guess is that the MTA didn't want to maintain parts supplies for multiple car types and support shop setups for non-MTA designs.  To be fair, the existing IND design was rugged and maintainable, even if noisy and relatively hard on both track and passengers.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, April 27, 2017 5:31 AM

Accurate and to the point.  In fact, for many years, four of the five 8001-8005 ran the 4:55pm Canarsie local from 8th and 14th, and I rode the train several times in that service,  By far the most comfortable and quiet train ever run on the NYCity subway system, even better than the Little Zephyr.  Never did ride the prototype on the Franklin Avenue Shuttle, most often the Little Zephyr.

As long as PCC streetcars ran on Brooklyn's streets, the Ninth Avenue carbarn could supply Coney Island shops with all the material to keep the Bluebirds in service.  The end of the PCC streetcars meant the end of the PCC rapid transit cars, which the Bluebirds were, as well.

The lasting influence was in Chicago, not in New York.

Your question.

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Posted by rcdrye on Thursday, April 27, 2017 1:54 PM

Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Cincinnati and Baltimore all operated broad gauge PCCs.  This city would have been the fifth in the USA (sorry, Toronto) with broad-gauge PCCs, but it sold its cars before ever running them.

Cincinnati, Pittburgh and Philadelphia were all 5' 2 1/2", Baltimore 5' 4 1/2".  The cars for this city were built to the same gauge as the Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia cars.

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Posted by daveklepper on Friday, April 28, 2017 12:50 AM

Louisville, Kentucky, with the Daisey Line interuruban running over the dual-gauge "Big Four" bridge into Indiana, also shared by steam and standard-guage Indiana Railroad, and its predicessor Interstate Public Service.  One or more PCCs made a test run at the car-hourse, and then all (25) were sold to Cleveland, ending up in Toronto.  I do not think that any remain today, fut for a while one SF PCC was painted in Louisville colors, since changed.

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Posted by rcdrye on Friday, April 28, 2017 9:36 AM

I'm pretty sure Louisville was the furthest west of any of the broad gauge systems (narrow gauge was a different story).  Of course, Indiana RR was gone from Louisville a good six years before the PCCs were ordered.

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