charlie hebdo MidlandMike Also if all passengers had to pay the full costs, there might be no passenger trains of any length. In terms of covering above rails cost, it varies depending on segment: prior to Covid, HSR in NEC had a profit; regional service broke even; State-supported corridors a loss; LD service a large loss overall, with sleeper class LD a huge loss, requiring the biggest subsidy per passenger.
MidlandMike Also if all passengers had to pay the full costs, there might be no passenger trains of any length.
In terms of covering above rails cost, it varies depending on segment: prior to Covid, HSR in NEC had a profit; regional service broke even; State-supported corridors a loss; LD service a large loss overall, with sleeper class LD a huge loss, requiring the biggest subsidy per passenger.
The NEC is a giant money pit when you consider it needs around $30 billion to get it to a state of good repar, plus how many billions to construct Gateway.
daveklepper The take-out business would be opoerated like a hotel providing room service, anything on the menues at any time. Thev one place in many of the cities where a night watchman could get a decent breakfast at 9pm and a good dinner at 4am. Handling unpredictable trains would be a snap. Most pizza palaces operate that way now.
The take-out business would be opoerated like a hotel providing room service, anything on the menues at any time.
Thev one place in many of the cities where a night watchman could get a decent breakfast at 9pm and a good dinner at 4am.
Handling unpredictable trains would be a snap.
Most pizza palaces operate that way now.
Never heard of a 24 hr. pizza joint. That's something I envy you guys in the Big City for. In flyover country there are not nearly as many 24 hour businesses and few restaurants like that even in large cities. In small towns, forget it. Main street closes at 7PM.
Lithonia Operator I think that just as one does not fly for the cuisine, if one travels by train you just cannot expect great food on most routes. All of us buy marginal food from airport kiosks at inflated prices; I don't think eating similar food on a train is any worse.
I agree with the rest of your post but not this. Air travel stinks, especially post 9/11, but at least it's quick and passengers can plan their meals around the airport. I only buy airport food when I'm having hunger pains and can't focus anymore. Otherwise I would rather suffer a little while until I can get to a decent restaurant.
When traveling by train, the travel is the biggest part of the experience so good food is a must. Even if expensive.
I looked at Amtrak for LD as an option for my family and couldn't do it. It wasn't the cost or the time. It was reading endless reviewers complaining about stale, cold food and toilets that were filthy. Sounded like an express train to hell. I'm now looking at some of the Canadian LD trains as alternatives.
Enzoamps Seems if the new Harvey Houses suggested were to live off local business mainly and Amtrak would just be icing on their cake, then they could survive without Amtrak. SO they should already be there. They are not.
Seems if the new Harvey Houses suggested were to live off local business mainly and Amtrak would just be icing on their cake, then they could survive without Amtrak. SO they should already be there. They are not.
I agree 100%.
And if there is by chance an establishment in Town X that has good food avilable around the clock, they are most likely not located near the tracks; this means that one is talking about delivery to the train by van. And trains tend to run late. We're talking iffy logistics and cold food.
I think that just as one does not fly for the cuisine, if one travels by train you just cannot expect great food on most routes. All of us buy marginal food from airport kiosks at inflated prices; I don't think eating similar food on a train is any worse.
Still in training.
rdamonThat did not exist before 2002 The old station was in a bubble inside the station.
Thats true and guess which Class I railroad CEO was instrumental in changing that? It didn't just happen and that railroad CEO could have been just as negative about KC Union Station and washed his hands of it while it was, demolished. At any rate, it does not matter that the turnaround happened the fact is there are a number of restaurants in and around Union Station KC which is also an Amtrak station doing just great profitability wise. Also, not the only example. Fort Worths Intermodal Station has an eating establishment. I doubt very much it survives only on the Heartland Flyer and Texas Eagle passengers. Union Station in Dallas has eating establishments very close by. Etc, etc.
York1 Kansas City's station sits in the middle of a huge, busy entertainment district.
Kansas City's station sits in the middle of a huge, busy entertainment district.
That did not exist before 2002
The old station was in a bubble inside the station.
York1Kansas City's station sits in the middle of a huge, busy entertainment district. You mention a few in Wisconsin that work. I don't think those situations occur along most of the western U.S. LD train routes.
So now your narrowing your statement more. You stated as did someone else that the scenario does not happen. I think if you check the Harvey Houses were not placed in podunk locations either but were strategically placed at popular station stops along a trains route. If your going to narrow the statement to be any station anywhere in the Western United States. Of course there will be some locations where it is not practible however, you don't need a restaurant at every station location for the concept to work. You only need them strategically placed.........same deal with station relocation. Does it make sense for Amtrak to relo the Elko, Nevada station for example? I doubt it. What about Hope, AK.....nope doubt that one too. Of course you can find similar examples across the network.
BTW, your already paying for Amtrak to make some of it's Big City stations more magnets for foot traffic and more self-sustainable. So it really does not matter what you prefer......it is already happening in some cases.
CMStPnP KC Union Station brings in most of it's restaurant patrons locally vs from the trains.
You mention a few in Wisconsin that work. I don't think those situations occur along most of the western U.S. LD train routes.
To have Amtrak build new stations in desirable areas would be a huge cost. To get tracks to desirable areas in most cities would be next to impossible.
All of this is based on the idea that we would want to spend the money to do this, just to be able to run long distance trains for people who have the time and money not to fly.
I love trains. I would love to take a LD train across the country, having a couple of drinks in the lounge, eating a great meal in the dining car, and then retiring to my train bedroom.
While I would love that, I'm not going to support the tax money involved in making that possible just so I can have a nice trip. And I don't think most Americans would, either.
York1 John
daveklepperThe take-out business would be opoerated like a hotel providing room service, anything on the menues at any time. Thev one place in many of the cities where a night watchman could get a decent breakfast at 9pm and a good dinner at 4am. Handling unpredictable trains would be a snap. Most pizza palaces operate that way now.
Yeah not sure about the 24 by 7 operation concept but otherwise I think that would work if the station was willing to lease to restaurants and was in a good location restaurant wise.
True of all modes of travel currently available in the United States including the automobile.
Did you read recently about the millions of dollars the Air Force is giving to BOOM which is a Civilian plane manufacturer that is trying to market a super sonic plane which it has not built yet.........all this time on these forums we have had people stating that the civilian aircraft and airline industry supports itself entirely via ticket revenue. I guess we should look the other way on the Air Force's generosity at what is essentially a marketing company selling a concept.
EnzoampsSeems if the new Harvey Houses suggested were to live off local business mainly and Amtrak would just be icing on their cake, then they could survive without Amtrak. SO they should already be there. They are not.
In fact they are already there as I mentioned in my post above. I am beginning to wonder about the vision of some of the Forum Posters here. In fact one of the eating establishments in KC Union Station is named Harvey's.......gee I wonder where they got that name from? Where you see them NOT THERE, is when the Station Location does not merit enough foot traffic or is in a bad neighborhood or will not lease to restaurants. Which underlines a point I made in an earlier thread that Amtrak needs to reposition some of it's Depots to reflect changing area demographics over the last 100 years.............has Amtrak done so on a Nationwide basis? I think that is why you see most of the passengers at Mitchell Field International Airport in Milwaukee getting off at that station to get into their cars vs onto a plane.......which was not the intent of that station and I do find a little comical that Amtrak Management and WisDOT are kind of oblivious to where the traffic is actually going.
York1The idea that a stand-alone restaurant at a train station would attract non-passengers as part of its business seems unlikely to me, and I doubt a restaurant that served only train passengers could remain in business.
I think that is a proven concept actually. KC Union Station brings in most of it's restaurant patrons locally vs from the trains. A number of smaller stations that have been sold in Texas to private individuals do the same. One former Milwaukee Road Station in Oconomowoc, WI does an excellent business as a restaurant. So does the former C&NW stations in Green Bay, WI as well as Waukesha, WI. I am pretty sure the Food Courts at Union Station in Chicago as well as the to be food court in Chicago Union Station pull in folks from off the street that are not traveling on Amtrak. The station restaurant in Milwaukee's Depot pulls in locals off the street........though in Milwaukee's case I believe it operates at a loss because of location but it is a well known multi-location in Milwaukee establishment so people know they serve good food.
Milwaukee's current depot is too small to handle their long-term plans of expanded rail service. They gave it a facelift not too long ago but Milwaukee needs a larger depot if it is to serve more trains and passengers. The waiting room especially is tiny if you have multiple trains at once in the station. Currently with the timetable they do OK because that situation is rare and usually there is only one train in the station at a time but hearing WisDOT talk about how great it is Milwaukee has multiple tracks.......it's great until you use them simultaneously.
MidlandMikeAlso if all passengers had to pay the full costs, there might be no passenger trains of any length.
What's the "full cost" of freight trains?
Examples: In Cleveland, a switch was installed for about $1m so the Capitol Limited could access the old New York Central tracks and get to the station and then to Chicago. The rest of the day freight trains get to use the switch, which Amtrak paid for. It's a busy switch.
In nearby Ravenna, O., local money is helping to pay for a W&LE subsidiary to build a spur to a new factory.
I don't know for a fact, but I'd be surprised if the new NS bridge over the Genesee River in Letchworth State Park was funded 100% by railroad money.
Taxpayers subsidized about 20% of the cost of re-routing the tracks so the Libby Dam could be built in Montana (about 1975).
I read about railroads getting all kinds of help from local governments, often in the form of tax abatements, or subsidies to install crossing gates and lights, etc. The companies also are generally exempt from paying sales and use tax on locomotives and freight cars.
Trying to figure out the "true cost" of operating trains, be they passenger or freight, is rather like peeling an onion or an artichoke. There are many layers of complexity. The days of railroad companies paying 100% of their own costs and improvements are over.
charlie hebdo MidlandMike 243129 The preceding posts seem to support my opinion that LD trains should be related to tourist trains. Since Amtrak, there have been about a dozen private LD tourist operations in the US. All have gone out of business, except that the one successful Canadian company, Rocky Mountaineer, has started a tour on ex-Rio Grande Denver/Moab. We will see how that goes. So doesn't that suggest that people who ride endpoint to endpoint on the CZ and EB are using a subsided cruise? The failure of private cruise trains is because charging actual cost plus turns folks away. If Amtrak charged just cost on those Western LD trains for sleeper class, there would be almost no first class passengers.
MidlandMike 243129 The preceding posts seem to support my opinion that LD trains should be related to tourist trains. Since Amtrak, there have been about a dozen private LD tourist operations in the US. All have gone out of business, except that the one successful Canadian company, Rocky Mountaineer, has started a tour on ex-Rio Grande Denver/Moab. We will see how that goes.
243129 The preceding posts seem to support my opinion that LD trains should be related to tourist trains.
The preceding posts seem to support my opinion that LD trains should be related to tourist trains.
Since Amtrak, there have been about a dozen private LD tourist operations in the US. All have gone out of business, except that the one successful Canadian company, Rocky Mountaineer, has started a tour on ex-Rio Grande Denver/Moab. We will see how that goes.
So doesn't that suggest that people who ride endpoint to endpoint on the CZ and EB are using a subsided cruise? The failure of private cruise trains is because charging actual cost plus turns folks away. If Amtrak charged just cost on those Western LD trains for sleeper class, there would be almost no first class passengers.
The number of passengers on the private tour trains was so miniscule as compaired to Amtrak, that its obvious to me that ATK riders are taking the trains for many more reasons than a tour. That also confirms what I have learned from talking to other passengers. Also if all passengers had to pay the full costs, there might be no passenger trains of any length.
CMStPnPSounds like your proposing to bring back the Santa Fe / Harvey House relationship. Which might be a good idea because those establishments would not be limited to selling to just train passengers but could also open to the local public and in that way could be profitable. With Amtrak schedules having so much padding. Would it really hurt to stop the train for 2-3 hours at meal time? Or maybe with technology all you would need is a 20-30 min stop and give the restaurant wait staff boarding ability to deliver their meals that were preordered prior to train arrival. Plan the LD train to just break mid run for lunch. Breakfest prior to boarding, Dinner would be the overnight stop where people detrain for the hotel.
This is exactly what DaveKlepper has been proposing for years on this forum.
I'm not sold on the idea, especially with the failure of so many restaurants over the past few years. The idea that a stand-alone restaurant at a train station would attract non-passengers as part of its business seems unlikely to me, and I doubt a restaurant that served only train passengers could remain in business.
The trains not running at night seem to be exactly what Charlie calls a land cruise. I seriously doubt the number of passengers for something like this is around. The people that need to get somewhere will fly, and the people that want a land cruise will be unlikely to spend a large amount of money to view Nebraska cornfields.
Overmod add a couple of cars' worth of luxury experience on a scheduled basis to an 'ordinary' Amtrak train. This provides the cruise luxury even if 'the rest of the train's s a regional or providing emergency transportation between isolated 'flyover' destination pairs unserved by other mass transit.
That is a great idea........for non-winter travel. What with the monumental delays incurred because of winter weather why bother running passenger trains over the Rockies and the Sierras?
OvermodIn a sense, the response to the pandemic has made bricks-and-mortar station restaurants much less necessary if they can't fully pay their own way locally. We had a discussion about 'ghost kitchens' a few years ago -- no reason why an Amtrak commissary couldn't provide such contract services for additional revenue, serve as an analogue to Lavista Equipment Services in supplying and maintaining satellite-location equipment expeditiously and at minimum expense, or otherwise de-leverage their high stranded cost and distance from any desirable or necessary resupply points.
Sounds like your proposing to bring back the Santa Fe / Harvey House relationship. Which might be a good idea because those establishments would not be limited to selling to just train passengers but could also open to the local public and in that way could be profitable. With Amtrak schedules having so much padding. Would it really hurt to stop the train for 2-3 hours at meal time? Or maybe with technology all you would need is a 20-30 min stop and give the restaurant wait staff boarding ability to deliver their meals that were preordered prior to train arrival. Plan the LD train to just break mid run for lunch. Breakfest prior to boarding, Dinner would be the overnight stop where people detrain for the hotel.
LD trains do not need sleepers either, VIA Rails Skeena does not have a sleeper, the train pauses overnight and passengers as well as train crew find their own hotel in Prince Gorge..........then reboard the train the next day for the rest of the journey. You can plan that to coincide with the stop for dinner.
BaltACDRemember - the way Congress created Amtrak, they expected it to be DEAD in 5 years.
The way I remember it....
Amtrak was a compromise between Nixon and the Congress. Congress was leaning towards full federal takeover of the nations railroads (full nationalization) and had that attitude through at least 1977-1978. Nixon just wanted to pull passenger trains out of the Class I's because all of them were complaining in unison that they were being bled to death by passenger trains and threatened more bankruptcies if not given some kind of relief by the Feds. It was a compromise, Congress got nationalization lite with just Passenger trains. Nixon got an organizational structure so Amtrak was partly private and in a future year subsidy could be zeroed out.
That last paragraph is intriguing. Could you restate more cogently and with fewer obscure references?
Even at the height of the 'golden age' of passenger rail, most trains had the equivalent of separated first class and steerage on liners, usually implemented as coaches one side of the diner (which, remember, usually operated as a loss-leader) and Pullmans with strict access restrictions on the other.
Ed Ellis and others tried a logical less-expensive version of Joe's suggestion: add a couple of cars' worth of luxury experience on a scheduled basis to an 'ordinary' Amtrak train. This provides the cruise luxury even if 'the rest of the train's s a regional or providing emergency transportation between isolated 'flyover' destination pairs unserved by other mass transit.
To my knowledge every attempt at this has sooner or later gone under; even if it is on average profitable, any sufficient 'lean time' leads to the usual death spiral disasters... and extinction is forever. In my opinion you set up ways to subsidize this at lean times, perhaps set up analogous to the original Social Security plan...
The other half of this (and we had active threads about this very recently) is that there are many places Amtrak service could be improved at comparatively little or no cost. "Regime change" or mandatory re-education camp equivalents for surly employees are one good place; a managed version of food delivery services coordinated with actual station stops (or deliveries to stopped trains) is another. There is often a way to lower Amtrak's costs without cheapening or removing service, and a process very similar to the one Delta engaged in a couple of years ago could be set up for Amtrak to prioritize and test.
In a sense, the response to the pandemic has made bricks-and-mortar station restaurants much less necessary if they can't fully pay their own way locally. We had a discussion about 'ghost kitchens' a few years ago -- no reason why an Amtrak commissary couldn't provide such contract services for additional revenue, serve as an analogue to Lavista Equipment Services in supplying and maintaining satellite-location equipment expeditiously and at minimum expense, or otherwise de-leverage their high stranded cost and distance from any desirable or necessary resupply points.
And ahain, I believe losses could be cut greatly by full-service hotel-likie stationb restaurants with full home-and-business take-out and even delivery, and on-board catering just a small fraction of the take-out business. Mariott could do a great job.
MidlandMike BaltACD ...The fact that Amtrak has made it past 50 years is indictative of Amtrak's refusal to die. As long as Congress doesn't pull the feeding tube.
BaltACD ...The fact that Amtrak has made it past 50 years is indictative of Amtrak's refusal to die.
As long as Congress doesn't pull the feeding tube.
Amtrak knows how to play politics.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
NKP, your dome/lightning experience sounds awesome.
BaltACD...The fact that Amtrak has made it past 50 years is indictative of Amtrak's refusal to die.
Remember - the way Congress created Amtrak, they expected it to be DEAD in 5 years. The fact that Amtrak has made it past 50 years is indictative of Amtrak's refusal to die.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.