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Long distance trains opinion

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Tuesday, January 18, 2022 10:08 PM

I strongly agree with you about morale of employees. In many jobs all over the country, people are just walking away, frequently for conditions of poor morale. In effect they are silently doing a Howard Beale.

Your ideas for European alternatives to traditional American sleepers might work quite well. Regular sleeper service costs need to be covered through increasing ticket prices.  For food services, Amtrak should also look into the European models as discussed on here before.

 

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 18, 2022 4:48 PM

I put a couple of other service comments in a separate post.

A big Amtrak issue to solve... ASAP in my not-so-humble opinion... is crew morale or other conditions leading to poor perceived service.  It is not possible to compel this in the typical government fashion, either via excessive tolerance or excessive discipline.  Ideally some combination of encouragement and 'developing the comers' can produce better attitude even in what we euphemistically call 'anomalous conditions' -- we should be having discussions on what can practically be done within a supremely political agency.

I think there should be a priority on establishing that 'middle level' of sleeping service that was mentioned.  Whether that is the hostel-style multiple bunks tried in Europe or better stabilized seats in 'business class' ... in fact, I would pursue the idea of both; they don't overlap that much... or some other approach.

It occurs to me that the above-the-line cost of much of the conventional sleeper service pays for itself.  I can think of a number of ways that marginal cost of improvements could justify increased net profits for high-end service (whether cruise/tourist train or civilized long-distance).  Once there are stable models for sleeper options, Amtrak might make more of the opportunity to run 'overnight corridor services' with less of the redeye character that most current overnight or late-night legs suffer from.

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Posted by Overmod on Tuesday, January 18, 2022 4:29 PM

Backshop
 
charlie hebdo

That last paragraph is intriguing. Could you restate more cogently and with fewer obscure references? 

He wouldn't be overmod if he did that...

Except that he did... over two days ago.  Guess you missed the memo.

Not that the original criticisms were unwarranted... Whistling

 

Meanwhile...

I think I disagree that sweeping, binding, long-term Amtrak plans are necessary to fix most of what's currently 'wrong' with the Amtrak passenger experience.

The outsourced food is something already given a valid Congressional mandate cost-wise, relatively low in startup costs to Amtrak, with much of the 'enabling technology' easily provided and systems-integrated.  I am not the only one here who thinks this.

Support for a great deal of on-board prep of outsourced orders is not 'that' much more difficult to incorporate.  Some of the amenities already built into the Viewliner diners, including the 'gang heating' ovens, need only recommended form factors and materials to allow suppliers to produce 'compatible' packaging for the orders, or to facilitate reheating or finish-prepping bulk orders onboard.

 

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Posted by MidlandMike on Sunday, January 16, 2022 9:59 PM

MJ4562
... The constant changes in policy, direction and funding are a huge waste of taxpayer dollars. Either agree to subsidize passenger service at a certain level or pull the plug.  ConRail was a huge success story. Maybe something can be learned from that. 

Amtrak is a political entity, and the pols will keep changing things as they win and lose elections.  Business also keeps changing.  Look at the ups and downs of CSX's North Baltimore yard and UP's cancled hump yard near Houston.  Conrail started as a collection of overbuilt lines but was able to trim down before it became a takeover target.

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Posted by MJ4562 on Sunday, January 16, 2022 9:34 PM

AMTRAKKER
Also, how about some legislation that sets Amtrak subsidy for a long term, and link it to service levels. Many of Amtraks issues have come at the hands of goverment required cuts. (How many times over the years have the diners level of service been messed with? Too many to count.)

Mainly, lets come up with some solid ideas to stop turning away what used to be paying customers. 

That's why a Mission Statement and Strategic Business Plan is needed.  What is the objectice of Amtrak?  Is it strictly commuter service?  Regional travel? Or all of the above plus LD trains as well?  What cities need service? Can air or bus travel be substituted if it better meets the needs of certain towns?  What level of service is required? How much funding can the agency expect over a 10-20 year time frame?  Those things need to be worked out first. Then you can worry about how to go about accomplishing them knowing that your funding is secure for a decade or more. The constant changes in policy, direction and funding are a huge waste of taxpayer dollars. Either agree to subsidize passenger service at a certain level or pull the plug.  ConRail was a huge success story. Maybe something can be learned from that. 

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Posted by Backshop on Sunday, January 16, 2022 7:13 PM

charlie hebdo

That last paragraph is intriguing. Could you restate more cogently and with fewer obscure references?

 

He wouldn't be overmod if he did that...

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Posted by Backshop on Sunday, January 16, 2022 7:12 PM

7j43k

 

 
CMStPnP

Marriott has some restrictive policies on who gets a room there because their founder is Mormon... 

 

 

 

Show me, please.

 

Ed

 

They let me in, so they can't be that restrictive!Big Smile

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Posted by AMTRAKKER on Sunday, January 16, 2022 5:07 PM

I have ridden tens of thousands of miles on Amtrak over the years, and spent tens of thousands of dollars doing it. Due to the rise in sleeper fares, I have not ridden in many years. 

I understand the argument that long distance cruise trains should not be subsidized, but, some type of reform should be undertaken to attract long distance passengers.

My wife and I travel from Chicago to her mother's home in Washington State. We are both too old to tolerate 40 plus hours in a coach seat, and are no longer able to afford the premium fare being required for sleeper space. So, we fly or drive, and the revenue goes to airline and car rental companies, or gasoline retailers and hotels instead of Amtrak. 

Perhaps uncouple meals from the sleeping car fare. Charge for the space, and let the passenger pay for their own meals. Perhaps a business class service similar to the airlines with lie flat seats. 

Also, how about some legislation that sets Amtrak subsidy for a long term, and link it to service levels. Many of Amtraks issues have come at the hands of goverment required cuts. (How many times over the years have the diners level of service been messed with? Too many to count.)

Mainly, lets come up with some solid ideas to stop turning away what used to be paying customers. 

 

 

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Sunday, January 16, 2022 3:03 PM

CMStPnP

Marriott has some restrictive policies on who gets a room there because their founder is Mormon... 

 

Show me, please.

 

Ed

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Posted by CMStPnP on Sunday, January 16, 2022 9:48 AM

daveklepper
Marriotte closes on Sunday, because of thec religious beliefs of their v founder?  Strange idea.  I've stayed at Marriotte hote3ls and never had a problem eating meals on Sunday or checking out asnd paying my hotel bill on Sunday.

[quote user="daveklepper"]

Marriott has some restrictive policies on who gets a room there because their founder is Mormon but I was referring to Chick-Fil-A whose founder I believe is fundamentailst Christian.

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Posted by York1 on Sunday, January 16, 2022 9:41 AM

daveklepper
Marriotte closes on Sunday, because of thec religious beliefs of their v founder? 

 

Dave, I think they were talking about Chick-fil-A, a fastfood restaurant which does not open on Sundays.

York1 John       

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Posted by daveklepper on Sunday, January 16, 2022 8:29 AM

Marriotte closes on Sunday, because of thec religious beliefs of their v founder?  Strange idea.  I've stayed at Marriotte hotels and never had a problem eating meals on Sunday or checking out asnd paying my hotel bill on Sunday.

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Posted by Enzoamps on Saturday, January 15, 2022 9:58 PM

I now nothing of details, but used to be many locomotives were not really owned by the railroad, but were leased.   That could be a factor.  Long ago walking around the trainyard area, I'd spot the little plate on the loco identifying the lessor.

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Posted by MidlandMike on Saturday, January 15, 2022 9:06 PM

charlie hebdo
Interstates, yes, some years ago but what about all the other roads? Airports are only a part of the air infrastructure. I think we would be slot better off with more basic infrastructure be built and maintained through govenment, preferably federal.. Large portions Of the electric grid resembles that ofa third world country. 

State gas taxes pay for state and county roads, although some states also are not keeping up with inflation.  Property taxes pay for local roads.  Some of my neighbors wanted our country dirt road paved but were schocked when they saw the surcharge that would been put on our prop taxes.  I am not in favor of states selling their tollways to foriegn consortiums.

The lions share of air traffic control is paid by the airlines.  General (private) aviation gets a free ride.

I don't know how TVA maintains its grid, but I do know they have had some environmental problems with power plant ash floods.

I'm certainly in favor of gov't maintaining water, sewer, dams and waterways.  And I hope Amtrak gets the money to upgrade the NEC and the Wolverine corridor.

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, January 15, 2022 6:32 PM

NKP guy

 

 
7j43k
So then the folks who told me that SP&S had their new locomotives delivered to Portland to avoid paying sales tax were incorrect?   Ed

 

   I can't say.  Here's what I found out when I Googled the subject for a minute or two:  Many states seem to exempt locomotives from such a tax, but one that doesn't is Idaho.  Would that be why the railroad took possession in Portland?

   The fact that many states do exempt railroads from such taxes does support the thesis that the "true cost" of running freight trains is a complex subject.

 

I think the locomotives would have been delivered in Washington, which does have a sales tax.  And Oregon does not.

I just did look up the subject, too, and likely read much of what you have.  Maybe back when SP&S was accepting locomotives, things were different.

Or.

Maybe someone "leapt to a conclusion" about why the deliver took place in Portland.

It's now a puzzle.  To me.  Happily, not one of great importance.  But still interesting.

I do agree with your comment about "true cost".  It seems there are people who know where they want to go with it, and work backwards to get there.

 

Ed

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Posted by NKP guy on Saturday, January 15, 2022 6:19 PM

7j43k
So then the folks who told me that SP&S had their new locomotives delivered to Portland to avoid paying sales tax were incorrect?   Ed

   I can't say.  Here's what I found out when I Googled the subject for a minute or two:  Many states seem to exempt locomotives from such a tax, but one that doesn't is Idaho.  Would that be why the railroad took possession in Portland?

   The fact that many states do exempt railroads from such taxes does support the thesis that the "true cost" of running freight trains is a complex subject.

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Saturday, January 15, 2022 3:55 PM

MidlandMike

 

 
charlie hebdo

Operating costs, i.e.above the rail costs. Infrastructure should be a function of government. It is for highway, air and waterways and ports.

 

 

 

The highways used to pay for themselves (plus some left over for transit) when the gas tax was adaquate.  Congress is afraid to raise the tax, but they could have to keep up with inflation.  Airlines pay access fees to support airports.  Municipalities can't afford to operate them at a loss.  Don't know why waterways get such a deal.  If gov't pays for infrastructure, then they should pay for the operation of the trains that use that infrastructure to support the reasonable public demand for transportation, and demand for LD is high and often not fully met.

 

Interstates, yes, some years ago but what about all the other roads?

Airports are only a part of the air infrastructure. I think we would be slot better off with more basic infrastructure be built and maintained through govenment, preferably federal.. Large portions Of the electric grid resembles that ofa third world country. 

 

 

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Posted by 7j43k on Saturday, January 15, 2022 3:10 PM

NKP guy

  The companies also are generally exempt from paying sales and use tax on locomotives and freight cars.

 

 

So then the folks who told me that SP&S had their new locomotives delivered to Portland to avoid paying sales tax were incorrect?

 

Ed

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, January 15, 2022 12:42 PM

Another problem for Amtrak is lack of equipment,   If it could meet demand for up to 16 cars that would give 13 - 14 revenue cars.  As I remenber the  PRIIA noted for each coach added to Florida trains would have a net profit of approximately 700 million for a year operating costs.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, January 15, 2022 12:34 PM

The deferred maintenance on the NEC can traced back to  ----------

PRR, PC, Contail, & New Haven  RRs.  Add in lack of funding for Amtrak to have proper up keep of the NEC.  Add in MNRR which is now trying to fix all of their problems caused by the above..

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Posted by MidlandMike on Friday, January 14, 2022 10:18 PM

charlie hebdo

Operating costs, i.e.above the rail costs. Infrastructure should be a function of government. It is for highway, air and waterways and ports.

 

The highways used to pay for themselves (plus some left over for transit) when the gas tax was adaquate.  Congress is afraid to raise the tax, but they could have to keep up with inflation.  Airlines pay access fees to support airports.  Municipalities can't afford to operate them at a loss.  Don't know why waterways get such a deal.  If gov't pays for infrastructure, then they should pay for the operation of the trains that use that infrastructure to support the reasonable public demand for transportation, and demand for LD is high and often not fully met.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, January 14, 2022 8:04 PM

Overmod

What I'm proposing is the antithesis of a Harvey House as a 24-hour sit-down dining facility that has to open, with all the prep and then clean-up, around the variable time a train 'might' get there.

Instead, you have whatever level of meal 'sophistication' prepared to order (for final prep and presentation in diners if need be) in advance of the train's tracked physical arrival and delivered in an appropriate van or larger culinary vehicle.  Other services could be provided via a better-maintained version of a 'roach coach' truck, in turn contracted for 'bulk delivery' from fast-food or other providers.

The essential point is that Amtrak has a very good idea of how late its trains will be in the magic time that food has to be coordinated for TOT delivery.  So what if, occasionally, there is a disaster that holds the train at some road crossing.  Build a temperature-holding van that goes where a crew van can, and deliver; Amtrak can easily provide custom GPS to partners.

The 'sweetener' for remote Amtrak kitchens is that they could be supplied via the Amtrak commissary system just as restaurants are served by outsourcers like McLain.  That combined with the Congressional mandate that food services pay their own way by next year (or so) may be interesting to contemplate. 

With respect to terrible winter delays: build the 'luxury' cars with full amenity support, overstock them when bad weather is anticipated (there may even be time to stock them from fixed base via local commissary partners).  Delays on the 'cruise' are just more days of fun, provided it isn't a mystery tour in the dark with surly or absent crew.

Something to complement this is having full-dining crews with one-day turns.  Subsidize their living costs if need be: they board in time to prep for meals, serve them and clean up, then turn to support whatever comes the other way, instead of being doomed to ride the tube for however many hours or days come to be involved.  If there is a foul up, everyone can still order the range of 'station' delivery.

I think technology has made a lot possible recently that others in the thread are not considering.    Amtraks internet train tracker is pretty accurate for LD trains and I used it to track the Texas Eagle around Christmas when my Sister used it to come to Dallas for a visit.    2-3 hours out the train tracker was spot on.    The onboard Amtrak crew was not updating the passengers but I called my Sister on the train via cell phone and told her she would be 30 min early about 90 min out from Dallas and the train held true to that schedule.   Amtrak train tracker also predicted the arrival time at the next few stations down the line.

Additionally, IPAD's as POS ordering systems are pretty advanced now an an Amtrak crew member could just carry an IPAD through the train ordering meals in advance and send the order compressed via cell phone or via hotspot or someday when Amtrak gets nationwide internet..........via that.    I do not see any issue with meal prep and late trains as you know 99% of the time approx 2 hours before when the train will get there (late or not late).    Good enough.

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, January 14, 2022 4:32 PM

What I'm proposing is the antithesis of a Harvey House as a 24-hour sit-down dining facility that has to open, with all the prep and then clean-up, around the variable time a train 'might' get there.

Instead, you have whatever level of meal 'sophistication' prepared to order (for final prep and presentation in diners if need be) in advance of the train's tracked physical arrival and delivered in an appropriate van or larger culinary vehicle.  Other services could be provided via a better-maintained version of a 'roach coach' truck, in turn contracted for 'bulk delivery' from fast-food or other providers.

The essential point is that Amtrak has a very good idea of how late its trains will be in the magic time that food has to be coordinated for TOT delivery.  So what if, occasionally, there is a disaster that holds the train at some road crossing.  Build a temperature-holding van that goes where a crew van can, and deliver; Amtrak can easily provide custom GPS to partners.

The 'sweetener' for remote Amtrak kitchens is that they could be supplied via the Amtrak commissary system just as restaurants are served by outsourcers like McLain.  That combined with the Congressional mandate that food services pay their own way by next year (or so) may be interesting to contemplate. 

With respect to terrible winter delays: build the 'luxury' cars with full amenity support, overstock them when bad weather is anticipated (there may even be time to stock them from fixed base via local commissary partners).  Delays on the 'cruise' are just more days of fun, provided it isn't a mystery tour in the dark with surly or absent crew.

Something to complement this is having full-dining crews with one-day turns.  Subsidize their living costs if need be: they board in time to prep for meals, serve them and clean up, then turn to support whatever comes the other way, instead of being doomed to ride the tube for however many hours or days come to be involved.  If there is a foul up, everyone can still order the range of 'station' delivery.

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, January 14, 2022 9:42 AM

CMStPnP

 

 
rdamon
If we really want things to work we would just turn over the whole thing to Chick-fil-a!

 

Are you forgetting they close on Sunday and due to the moral beliefs of their founder......it's not likely to change.

 

They are so efficient they can get it all done in 6 days and then rest :)

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Posted by MJ4562 on Friday, January 14, 2022 8:50 AM

Infrastructure (road, rail, water, air) is one of the fundamental purposes of government.  The NEC maybe expensive but how much positive economic impact does it have?  How much would it cost to move those commuters on the highways and airports?  Private enterprise should provide the services whenever it can, but when it can't be done profitably is when the government needs to step in to help.

Outsourcing food service is a great idea, however, all is in vain until Amtrak and Congress can agree on a mission statement and business plan for passenger rail.  Once in place, the politicians need to butt out and allow management to accomplish those goals.

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Posted by CMStPnP on Friday, January 14, 2022 8:16 AM

rdamon
If we really want things to work we would just turn over the whole thing to Chick-fil-a!

Are you forgetting they close on Sunday and due to the moral beliefs of their founder......it's not likely to change.

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Posted by rdamon on Friday, January 14, 2022 7:26 AM

Many folks are now experienced with online ordering, pick-up and delivery of food.  Seems an app or few kiosks in a car with a menu that draws from local restaurants at the next stop could work.

Passengers can pick up their prepaid food from hot/cold holding bins with their pick-up code.

 

At Little Ceaser’s pizza you order online and pick up you pizza in a individual “pizza porta” without human interaction.

 

If we really want things to work we would just turn over the whole thing to Chick-fil-a!

 

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Posted by charlie hebdo on Thursday, January 13, 2022 10:08 PM

Operating costs, i.e.above the rail costs. Infrastructure should be a function of government. It is for highway, air and waterways and ports.

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