The take-out business would be opoerated like a hotel providing room service, anything on the menues at any time.
Thev one place in many of the cities where a night watchman could get a decent breakfast at 9pm and a good dinner at 4am.
Handling unpredictable trains would be a snap.
Most pizza palaces operate that way now.
MidlandMike Also if all passengers had to pay the full costs, there might be no passenger trains of any length.
True of all modes of travel currently available in the United States including the automobile.
Did you read recently about the millions of dollars the Air Force is giving to BOOM which is a Civilian plane manufacturer that is trying to market a super sonic plane which it has not built yet.........all this time on these forums we have had people stating that the civilian aircraft and airline industry supports itself entirely via ticket revenue. I guess we should look the other way on the Air Force's generosity at what is essentially a marketing company selling a concept.
daveklepperThe take-out business would be opoerated like a hotel providing room service, anything on the menues at any time. Thev one place in many of the cities where a night watchman could get a decent breakfast at 9pm and a good dinner at 4am. Handling unpredictable trains would be a snap. Most pizza palaces operate that way now.
Yeah not sure about the 24 by 7 operation concept but otherwise I think that would work if the station was willing to lease to restaurants and was in a good location restaurant wise.
CMStPnP KC Union Station brings in most of it's restaurant patrons locally vs from the trains.
Kansas City's station sits in the middle of a huge, busy entertainment district.
You mention a few in Wisconsin that work. I don't think those situations occur along most of the western U.S. LD train routes.
To have Amtrak build new stations in desirable areas would be a huge cost. To get tracks to desirable areas in most cities would be next to impossible.
All of this is based on the idea that we would want to spend the money to do this, just to be able to run long distance trains for people who have the time and money not to fly.
I love trains. I would love to take a LD train across the country, having a couple of drinks in the lounge, eating a great meal in the dining car, and then retiring to my train bedroom.
While I would love that, I'm not going to support the tax money involved in making that possible just so I can have a nice trip. And I don't think most Americans would, either.
York1 John
York1Kansas City's station sits in the middle of a huge, busy entertainment district. You mention a few in Wisconsin that work. I don't think those situations occur along most of the western U.S. LD train routes.
So now your narrowing your statement more. You stated as did someone else that the scenario does not happen. I think if you check the Harvey Houses were not placed in podunk locations either but were strategically placed at popular station stops along a trains route. If your going to narrow the statement to be any station anywhere in the Western United States. Of course there will be some locations where it is not practible however, you don't need a restaurant at every station location for the concept to work. You only need them strategically placed.........same deal with station relocation. Does it make sense for Amtrak to relo the Elko, Nevada station for example? I doubt it. What about Hope, AK.....nope doubt that one too. Of course you can find similar examples across the network.
BTW, your already paying for Amtrak to make some of it's Big City stations more magnets for foot traffic and more self-sustainable. So it really does not matter what you prefer......it is already happening in some cases.
York1 Kansas City's station sits in the middle of a huge, busy entertainment district.
That did not exist before 2002
The old station was in a bubble inside the station.
rdamonThat did not exist before 2002 The old station was in a bubble inside the station.
Thats true and guess which Class I railroad CEO was instrumental in changing that? It didn't just happen and that railroad CEO could have been just as negative about KC Union Station and washed his hands of it while it was, demolished. At any rate, it does not matter that the turnaround happened the fact is there are a number of restaurants in and around Union Station KC which is also an Amtrak station doing just great profitability wise. Also, not the only example. Fort Worths Intermodal Station has an eating establishment. I doubt very much it survives only on the Heartland Flyer and Texas Eagle passengers. Union Station in Dallas has eating establishments very close by. Etc, etc.
Enzoamps Seems if the new Harvey Houses suggested were to live off local business mainly and Amtrak would just be icing on their cake, then they could survive without Amtrak. SO they should already be there. They are not.
Seems if the new Harvey Houses suggested were to live off local business mainly and Amtrak would just be icing on their cake, then they could survive without Amtrak. SO they should already be there. They are not.
I agree 100%.
And if there is by chance an establishment in Town X that has good food avilable around the clock, they are most likely not located near the tracks; this means that one is talking about delivery to the train by van. And trains tend to run late. We're talking iffy logistics and cold food.
I think that just as one does not fly for the cuisine, if one travels by train you just cannot expect great food on most routes. All of us buy marginal food from airport kiosks at inflated prices; I don't think eating similar food on a train is any worse.
Still in training.
Lithonia Operator I think that just as one does not fly for the cuisine, if one travels by train you just cannot expect great food on most routes. All of us buy marginal food from airport kiosks at inflated prices; I don't think eating similar food on a train is any worse.
I agree with the rest of your post but not this. Air travel stinks, especially post 9/11, but at least it's quick and passengers can plan their meals around the airport. I only buy airport food when I'm having hunger pains and can't focus anymore. Otherwise I would rather suffer a little while until I can get to a decent restaurant.
When traveling by train, the travel is the biggest part of the experience so good food is a must. Even if expensive.
I looked at Amtrak for LD as an option for my family and couldn't do it. It wasn't the cost or the time. It was reading endless reviewers complaining about stale, cold food and toilets that were filthy. Sounded like an express train to hell. I'm now looking at some of the Canadian LD trains as alternatives.
daveklepper The take-out business would be opoerated like a hotel providing room service, anything on the menues at any time. Thev one place in many of the cities where a night watchman could get a decent breakfast at 9pm and a good dinner at 4am. Handling unpredictable trains would be a snap. Most pizza palaces operate that way now.
Never heard of a 24 hr. pizza joint. That's something I envy you guys in the Big City for. In flyover country there are not nearly as many 24 hour businesses and few restaurants like that even in large cities. In small towns, forget it. Main street closes at 7PM.
charlie hebdo MidlandMike Also if all passengers had to pay the full costs, there might be no passenger trains of any length. In terms of covering above rails cost, it varies depending on segment: prior to Covid, HSR in NEC had a profit; regional service broke even; State-supported corridors a loss; LD service a large loss overall, with sleeper class LD a huge loss, requiring the biggest subsidy per passenger.
In terms of covering above rails cost, it varies depending on segment: prior to Covid, HSR in NEC had a profit; regional service broke even; State-supported corridors a loss; LD service a large loss overall, with sleeper class LD a huge loss, requiring the biggest subsidy per passenger.
The NEC is a giant money pit when you consider it needs around $30 billion to get it to a state of good repar, plus how many billions to construct Gateway.
Operating costs, i.e.above the rail costs. Infrastructure should be a function of government. It is for highway, air and waterways and ports.
Many folks are now experienced with online ordering, pick-up and delivery of food. Seems an app or few kiosks in a car with a menu that draws from local restaurants at the next stop could work.
Passengers can pick up their prepaid food from hot/cold holding bins with their pick-up code.
At Little Ceaser’s pizza you order online and pick up you pizza in a individual “pizza porta” without human interaction.
If we really want things to work we would just turn over the whole thing to Chick-fil-a!
rdamon If we really want things to work we would just turn over the whole thing to Chick-fil-a!
Are you forgetting they close on Sunday and due to the moral beliefs of their founder......it's not likely to change.
Infrastructure (road, rail, water, air) is one of the fundamental purposes of government. The NEC maybe expensive but how much positive economic impact does it have? How much would it cost to move those commuters on the highways and airports? Private enterprise should provide the services whenever it can, but when it can't be done profitably is when the government needs to step in to help.
Outsourcing food service is a great idea, however, all is in vain until Amtrak and Congress can agree on a mission statement and business plan for passenger rail. Once in place, the politicians need to butt out and allow management to accomplish those goals.
CMStPnP rdamon If we really want things to work we would just turn over the whole thing to Chick-fil-a! Are you forgetting they close on Sunday and due to the moral beliefs of their founder......it's not likely to change.
They are so efficient they can get it all done in 6 days and then rest :)
What I'm proposing is the antithesis of a Harvey House as a 24-hour sit-down dining facility that has to open, with all the prep and then clean-up, around the variable time a train 'might' get there.
Instead, you have whatever level of meal 'sophistication' prepared to order (for final prep and presentation in diners if need be) in advance of the train's tracked physical arrival and delivered in an appropriate van or larger culinary vehicle. Other services could be provided via a better-maintained version of a 'roach coach' truck, in turn contracted for 'bulk delivery' from fast-food or other providers.
The essential point is that Amtrak has a very good idea of how late its trains will be in the magic time that food has to be coordinated for TOT delivery. So what if, occasionally, there is a disaster that holds the train at some road crossing. Build a temperature-holding van that goes where a crew van can, and deliver; Amtrak can easily provide custom GPS to partners.
The 'sweetener' for remote Amtrak kitchens is that they could be supplied via the Amtrak commissary system just as restaurants are served by outsourcers like McLain. That combined with the Congressional mandate that food services pay their own way by next year (or so) may be interesting to contemplate.
With respect to terrible winter delays: build the 'luxury' cars with full amenity support, overstock them when bad weather is anticipated (there may even be time to stock them from fixed base via local commissary partners). Delays on the 'cruise' are just more days of fun, provided it isn't a mystery tour in the dark with surly or absent crew.
Something to complement this is having full-dining crews with one-day turns. Subsidize their living costs if need be: they board in time to prep for meals, serve them and clean up, then turn to support whatever comes the other way, instead of being doomed to ride the tube for however many hours or days come to be involved. If there is a foul up, everyone can still order the range of 'station' delivery.
Overmod What I'm proposing is the antithesis of a Harvey House as a 24-hour sit-down dining facility that has to open, with all the prep and then clean-up, around the variable time a train 'might' get there. Instead, you have whatever level of meal 'sophistication' prepared to order (for final prep and presentation in diners if need be) in advance of the train's tracked physical arrival and delivered in an appropriate van or larger culinary vehicle. Other services could be provided via a better-maintained version of a 'roach coach' truck, in turn contracted for 'bulk delivery' from fast-food or other providers. The essential point is that Amtrak has a very good idea of how late its trains will be in the magic time that food has to be coordinated for TOT delivery. So what if, occasionally, there is a disaster that holds the train at some road crossing. Build a temperature-holding van that goes where a crew van can, and deliver; Amtrak can easily provide custom GPS to partners. The 'sweetener' for remote Amtrak kitchens is that they could be supplied via the Amtrak commissary system just as restaurants are served by outsourcers like McLain. That combined with the Congressional mandate that food services pay their own way by next year (or so) may be interesting to contemplate. With respect to terrible winter delays: build the 'luxury' cars with full amenity support, overstock them when bad weather is anticipated (there may even be time to stock them from fixed base via local commissary partners). Delays on the 'cruise' are just more days of fun, provided it isn't a mystery tour in the dark with surly or absent crew. Something to complement this is having full-dining crews with one-day turns. Subsidize their living costs if need be: they board in time to prep for meals, serve them and clean up, then turn to support whatever comes the other way, instead of being doomed to ride the tube for however many hours or days come to be involved. If there is a foul up, everyone can still order the range of 'station' delivery.
I think technology has made a lot possible recently that others in the thread are not considering. Amtraks internet train tracker is pretty accurate for LD trains and I used it to track the Texas Eagle around Christmas when my Sister used it to come to Dallas for a visit. 2-3 hours out the train tracker was spot on. The onboard Amtrak crew was not updating the passengers but I called my Sister on the train via cell phone and told her she would be 30 min early about 90 min out from Dallas and the train held true to that schedule. Amtrak train tracker also predicted the arrival time at the next few stations down the line.
Additionally, IPAD's as POS ordering systems are pretty advanced now an an Amtrak crew member could just carry an IPAD through the train ordering meals in advance and send the order compressed via cell phone or via hotspot or someday when Amtrak gets nationwide internet..........via that. I do not see any issue with meal prep and late trains as you know 99% of the time approx 2 hours before when the train will get there (late or not late). Good enough.
charlie hebdo Operating costs, i.e.above the rail costs. Infrastructure should be a function of government. It is for highway, air and waterways and ports.
The highways used to pay for themselves (plus some left over for transit) when the gas tax was adaquate. Congress is afraid to raise the tax, but they could have to keep up with inflation. Airlines pay access fees to support airports. Municipalities can't afford to operate them at a loss. Don't know why waterways get such a deal. If gov't pays for infrastructure, then they should pay for the operation of the trains that use that infrastructure to support the reasonable public demand for transportation, and demand for LD is high and often not fully met.
The deferred maintenance on the NEC can traced back to ----------
PRR, PC, Contail, & New Haven RRs. Add in lack of funding for Amtrak to have proper up keep of the NEC. Add in MNRR which is now trying to fix all of their problems caused by the above..
Another problem for Amtrak is lack of equipment, If it could meet demand for up to 16 cars that would give 13 - 14 revenue cars. As I remenber the PRIIA noted for each coach added to Florida trains would have a net profit of approximately 700 million for a year operating costs.
NKP guy The companies also are generally exempt from paying sales and use tax on locomotives and freight cars.
The companies also are generally exempt from paying sales and use tax on locomotives and freight cars.
So then the folks who told me that SP&S had their new locomotives delivered to Portland to avoid paying sales tax were incorrect?
Ed
MidlandMike charlie hebdo Operating costs, i.e.above the rail costs. Infrastructure should be a function of government. It is for highway, air and waterways and ports. The highways used to pay for themselves (plus some left over for transit) when the gas tax was adaquate. Congress is afraid to raise the tax, but they could have to keep up with inflation. Airlines pay access fees to support airports. Municipalities can't afford to operate them at a loss. Don't know why waterways get such a deal. If gov't pays for infrastructure, then they should pay for the operation of the trains that use that infrastructure to support the reasonable public demand for transportation, and demand for LD is high and often not fully met.
Interstates, yes, some years ago but what about all the other roads?
Airports are only a part of the air infrastructure. I think we would be slot better off with more basic infrastructure be built and maintained through govenment, preferably federal.. Large portions Of the electric grid resembles that ofa third world country.
7j43kSo then the folks who told me that SP&S had their new locomotives delivered to Portland to avoid paying sales tax were incorrect? Ed
I can't say. Here's what I found out when I Googled the subject for a minute or two: Many states seem to exempt locomotives from such a tax, but one that doesn't is Idaho. Would that be why the railroad took possession in Portland?
The fact that many states do exempt railroads from such taxes does support the thesis that the "true cost" of running freight trains is a complex subject.
NKP guy 7j43k So then the folks who told me that SP&S had their new locomotives delivered to Portland to avoid paying sales tax were incorrect? Ed I can't say. Here's what I found out when I Googled the subject for a minute or two: Many states seem to exempt locomotives from such a tax, but one that doesn't is Idaho. Would that be why the railroad took possession in Portland? The fact that many states do exempt railroads from such taxes does support the thesis that the "true cost" of running freight trains is a complex subject.
7j43k So then the folks who told me that SP&S had their new locomotives delivered to Portland to avoid paying sales tax were incorrect? Ed
I think the locomotives would have been delivered in Washington, which does have a sales tax. And Oregon does not.
I just did look up the subject, too, and likely read much of what you have. Maybe back when SP&S was accepting locomotives, things were different.
Or.
Maybe someone "leapt to a conclusion" about why the deliver took place in Portland.
It's now a puzzle. To me. Happily, not one of great importance. But still interesting.
I do agree with your comment about "true cost". It seems there are people who know where they want to go with it, and work backwards to get there.
charlie hebdoInterstates, yes, some years ago but what about all the other roads? Airports are only a part of the air infrastructure. I think we would be slot better off with more basic infrastructure be built and maintained through govenment, preferably federal.. Large portions Of the electric grid resembles that ofa third world country.
State gas taxes pay for state and county roads, although some states also are not keeping up with inflation. Property taxes pay for local roads. Some of my neighbors wanted our country dirt road paved but were schocked when they saw the surcharge that would been put on our prop taxes. I am not in favor of states selling their tollways to foriegn consortiums.
The lions share of air traffic control is paid by the airlines. General (private) aviation gets a free ride.
I don't know how TVA maintains its grid, but I do know they have had some environmental problems with power plant ash floods.
I'm certainly in favor of gov't maintaining water, sewer, dams and waterways. And I hope Amtrak gets the money to upgrade the NEC and the Wolverine corridor.
I now nothing of details, but used to be many locomotives were not really owned by the railroad, but were leased. That could be a factor. Long ago walking around the trainyard area, I'd spot the little plate on the loco identifying the lessor.
Marriotte closes on Sunday, because of thec religious beliefs of their v founder? Strange idea. I've stayed at Marriotte hotels and never had a problem eating meals on Sunday or checking out asnd paying my hotel bill on Sunday.
daveklepperMarriotte closes on Sunday, because of thec religious beliefs of their v founder?
Dave, I think they were talking about Chick-fil-A, a fastfood restaurant which does not open on Sundays.
daveklepperMarriotte closes on Sunday, because of thec religious beliefs of their v founder? Strange idea. I've stayed at Marriotte hote3ls and never had a problem eating meals on Sunday or checking out asnd paying my hotel bill on Sunday.
Marriott has some restrictive policies on who gets a room there because their founder is Mormon but I was referring to Chick-Fil-A whose founder I believe is fundamentailst Christian.
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