This link shows the damage of the FEC Cane Creek bridge. A replacement 2 main track bridge is being built so we can see the progress of bridge being built as well as the damage the ready mix truck did to the bridge being replaced.
The drone footage and audio is very good.
Crane Creek Bridge Strike on the Florida East Coast Railway and Brightline Bridge Construction - YouTube
Brightline brige work edition 5
Brightline Construction: The Fifth Bridge Edition - May 2021 - YouTube
York1 MidlandMike As for devaluation of property, it is already alongside a freeway. Plus in areas convenient to transit, property values usually rise. This isn't transit for the community. This is a train from the airport to Disney. It provides no transit for Hunter's Creek, since the train only goes through. At least the highway has two access points for the citizens there. MidlandMike As I have said in another post, eminent domain wouldn't be for the millionaire investors, but for the thousands of people who will use the transportation. If this was a public operation, I might agree with you. It's not. Privately run Brightline wants this route because it's cheaper than the route Orlando wants. Cheaper means Brightline won't have to sell more bonds and the present wealthy bondholders will benefit. If this were a public utility, they would probably route the train to other venues also, such as the convention center and Universal. It's obvious I disagree with others here. I've posted enough. I apologize for the rants, but eminent domain, for a good reason, is a hot button issue for me. Enough said.
MidlandMike As for devaluation of property, it is already alongside a freeway. Plus in areas convenient to transit, property values usually rise.
This isn't transit for the community. This is a train from the airport to Disney. It provides no transit for Hunter's Creek, since the train only goes through. At least the highway has two access points for the citizens there.
MidlandMike As I have said in another post, eminent domain wouldn't be for the millionaire investors, but for the thousands of people who will use the transportation.
If this was a public operation, I might agree with you. It's not. Privately run Brightline wants this route because it's cheaper than the route Orlando wants. Cheaper means Brightline won't have to sell more bonds and the present wealthy bondholders will benefit. If this were a public utility, they would probably route the train to other venues also, such as the convention center and Universal.
It's obvious I disagree with others here. I've posted enough. I apologize for the rants, but eminent domain, for a good reason, is a hot button issue for me. Enough said.
I recall that Sun Rail was also interested in the line for transit options.
Regarding private vs. public, historical review of the line may be instructive. In 2000 Florida voters approved a constitutional amendment to fund HSR. Orlando-Tampa was an early favorite. However, before things got off the ground, Gov, Jeb Bush endorsed the repeal of the amendment, and voters reversed themselves. Then with stimulus funds available to help recover from the Great Recession, the Feds granted the funds to revive the Orlando-Tampa proposal. This time Gov. Scott killed the project. (I guess I should be greatful since my state, Michigan, got redirected funds to buy the east 100 miles of the Wolverine corridor, which is being upgraded to 110 mph.) So maybe the third time's the charm, with a private company funding the line. Florida apparently wants the line, they just don't want to pay for it. Brightline is risking their money, and seeing that the dozen companies that tried private passenger operation in the Amtrak era are no longer in business, it's quite the risk. Even if a public agency had built the line, they would have contracted out the construction to a private company, and may have even contracted out the operation. In any case private investors are probably going to make money, and the public gets the transportation. And for 200 years, with the help of eminent domain, that's how the rail system and all transportation/utility infrastructure was built.
I had made up my mind last night not to respond anymore. And yet, stupid me, here I am again. This will now be my last post ... I promise. (I heard those cheers out there!)
CMStPnPSo while I recognize it is an appeal towards base emotion over intellect, it's probably not appropriate to attempt to use the "class warfare" argument here. I am pretty confident in this case the landowners around Disney are not poor or down and out on their finances as you attempt to portray.
Appeal toward base emotion? Attempt to use class warfare as an argument? Before I even posted my first comment in this thread, this is what you wrote:
CMStPnPEven more surprising is the Florida Congressional Representative who are anti-Amtrak with voting records whom always told the public they are OK with rail transit as long as it is privately run. Actually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route. I see that as corruption of our Democratic system, I cannot explain it any other way.
Seems you were using class warfare and appealing to base emotion to show how bad the representative was for taking the side of the bad rich people.
Nowhere did I claim the landowners were "poor or down and out on their finances". In fact, if you check back, I said the wealthy landowners deserved representation, even though they may be wealthy. You were the one who implied their elected representative was wrong for taking the side of the "wealthy residential and land owners".
CMStPnP I noticed you no longer refer to them as Billionaire investors and 99.9% or more of them are not. Anyone of any income level can join or buy shares in a Venture Capital firm, you do not need to be a millionaire.
By billionaire investors, I was referring to the investment groups, not the individuals. The same with Disney, which is owned by large, very rich investment companies and foundations. It's possible even my own retirement funds have some money invested there. That does not make eminent domain right.
I will once again go back to my original post and why I even got involved in this discussion.
A U.S. representative is entitled, and even obligated, to represent the people in his district. It does not matter how rich those people are, and it does not matter how much we may want a new train. That is not, as you claimed, a "corruption of our Democratic system". It is, in fact, the way a democratic republic is supposed to function.
CMStPnP and Midland Mike, I hope nothing I've said causes a problem. I always appreciate both of you and your comments on the various forum topics. I apologize if I've have said anything that causes a problem.
I promise, promise, and this time I really, really, mean it, this will be my last post in this thread.
York1 John
MidlandMikeAs for devaluation of property, it is already alongside a freeway. Plus in areas convenient to transit, property values usually rise.
And if being poor in this country means owning acreage in Orlando adjacent to Disney.......someone please make me poor!!!!
York1And in this case, the county and state are going to have to decide what is good for the public interest: a train built by a private company and financed by millionaire investors, or the county's own landowners who will lose property and whose remaining property will lose value.
Fortress Investments is an "Investment Group", which is a group of Venture Capital Firms pooling their money together as one. I noticed you no longer refer to them as Billionaire investors and 99.9% or more of them are not. Anyone of any income level can join or buy shares in a Venture Capital firm, you do not need to be a millionaire. It is another form of investing just like Real Estate Investment Trusts or Mutual Funds. So Fortress Investments is an aggregation of Individual Firms which is an aggregation of individual investors. You don't seem to grasp that based on how your writing your responses. Facts are most of the venture capitalist investors are probably not as wealthy as the landowners around Orlando (so your argument on the privelege of the wealthy is probably and most likely turned around in this case).
Have you looked at what they are asking for land in that area near Disney on an acreage basis and what the property taxes are on that acreage? So while I recognize it is an appeal towards base emotion over intellect, it's probably not appropriate to attempt to use the "class warfare" argument here. I am pretty confident in this case the landowners around Disney are not poor or down and out on their finances as you attempt to portray.
Here is a U tube of the May 2021 progress Cocoa - Orlando airport.
Brightline Construction: Orlando Line Along State Road 528 - May 2021 - YouTube
MidlandMikeAs I have said in another post, eminent domain wouldn't be for the millionaire investors, but for the thousands of people who will use the transportation.
York1This isn't what the discussion is about. The fact that eminent domain is legal doesn't change what Brightline's plans call for. The fact is that eminent domain is a process of last resort, and should be fought by land owners in nearly every case. If Orange County and the state of Florida decide to use eminent domain in this case, that is their right. It won't change the fact that it would benefit Brightline's millionaire investors, benefit Disney's billionaire owners, and take land and hurt property owners' land values along the route.
Of course the local government should look out for their citizens. That includes those living along the route, but also all the citizens of the county who benefit from the tourist industry, and also those who might use the transportation services of Brightline. As I have said in another post, eminent domain wouldn't be for the millionaire investors, but for the thousands of people who will use the transportation.
As for devaluation of property, it is already alongside a freeway. Plus in areas convenient to transit, property values usually rise.
MidlandMike York1 ... Property rights are enshrined in our country's Declaration along with all the other rights we cherish. Property rights were one of the main reasons given in the Declaration for the founding of our country. From the 5th Amedment to the Constitution: ... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
York1 ... Property rights are enshrined in our country's Declaration along with all the other rights we cherish. Property rights were one of the main reasons given in the Declaration for the founding of our country.
From the 5th Amedment to the Constitution:
... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
This isn't what the discussion is about. The fact that eminent domain is legal doesn't change what Brightline's plans call for. The fact is that eminent domain is a process of last resort, and should be fought by land owners in nearly every case.
If Orange County and the state of Florida decide to use eminent domain in this case, that is their right.
It won't change the fact that it would benefit Brightline's millionaire investors, benefit Disney's billionaire owners, and take land and hurt property owners' land values along the route.
CMStPnP MidlandMike ... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation. .......And there it is. Under our real estate laws your next door neighbor can actually steal a portion of your property legally by maintaining it unchallenged for a number of years. Lookup "Adverse Possession" and the 5-6 requirements in order to make that argument in court.
MidlandMike ... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
.......And there it is.
Under our real estate laws your next door neighbor can actually steal a portion of your property legally by maintaining it unchallenged for a number of years. Lookup "Adverse Possession" and the 5-6 requirements in order to make that argument in court.
And there what is?
The fact that eminent domain is legal is not the issue here.
The fact that Brightline wants the government to use eminent domain so that Brightline can build a railroad to earn money for their bondholders is the issue.
This whole discussion is based on your condemnation of an elected official working to represent his constituents instead of a group of millionaire investors:
CMStPnPActually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route. I see that as corruption of our Democratic system, I cannot explain it any other way.
It would be a corruption of our democratic system if the representative didn't work to represent those "wealthy residential and land owners". Maybe because they're wealthy, they don't deserve the representation?
And in this case, the county and state are going to have to decide what is good for the public interest: a train built by a private company and financed by millionaire investors, or the county's own landowners who will lose property and whose remaining property will lose value.
What does adverse possession have to do with this discussion?
MidlandMike... nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
York1A group of millionaire and billionaire investors forcing someone to give up their land is also a corruption of the democratic system. That wealthy group of investors who bought the billions in bonds is hoping to make a lot of money by taking that land.
That would be a corruption, except enriching milloinaires is not a reason for eminent domain. The legal basis is that the project must show that it is for the public good.
York1... Property rights are enshrined in our country's Declaration along with all the other rights we cherish. Property rights were one of the main reasons given in the Declaration for the founding of our country.
Remember Crandal owns a lot of AA stock and more fixed price options. Good money to be had if AA stock is not loosing value from Brightline.
Remember Crandal owns a lot of AA stock and more fixed price options. Good money to be had if AA stock is not hurting from Brightline.
CMStPnPArguing the property rights argument over eminent domain is not a strong argument since yourself, your ancestors, or the chain of people before you... obtained the land from the railway or the Feds to begin with.
You and I will have a major disagreement with this. Who owns federal lands? People own the lands. Not the government. Property rights are owned by the people, not the government. That's like saying a tax cut is the government giving away money. It's our money to begin with.
It's a dangerous argument to claim that "arguing the property rights argument over eminent domain is not a strong argument since [we] ... obtained the land from the ... Feds to begin with".
"Not a strong argument"! Property rights are enshrined in our country's Declaration along with all the other rights we cherish. Property rights were one of the main reasons given in the Declaration for the founding of our country.
Your argument dismissing property rights over eminent domain because it was the government's land anyway ... I can't tell you how strongly I disagree with you.
CMStPnPIn the specific case you mention. Hey I am fine with shifting the route to give better access to Universal Studios and the like BUT in all fairness, they should pay the cost difference between the new route and the old route not Brightline. It's like a $1.4 Billion difference. Not small potatoes and Brightline could use the same argument as your using. It's being railroaded into accepting a higher cost right of way for the benefit of a few wealthy Corporations.
Brightline is not being 'railroaded' into anything. They are the ones asking for eminent domain and for sharing the ROW with a toll road. And Disney comes out with a private transit system from the airport to their business by taking away property from several citizens and ruining the property values of many other citizens.
If the argument is that the new railroad's Disney stop is just because it's on the way to Tampa, then there are other better routes to the south that completey bypass Disney altogether.
Brightline is a private company. They can try to route their railroad wherever they want. It is also the right of the citizens of Orange County to stop them or force them to make allowances. The issue that it may cost Brightline's millionaire investors more money is irrelevant.
Of course, Disney has nothing to do with this either, do they? It's kind of funny that at the same time Brightline is pushing this route, Disney announces they are ending the Magical Express from MCO.
n012944Why should they? Typical foamer board. If someone builds a house next to the tracks, then complains about the noise, they are told the tracks were there first. When a railroad is trying to build tracks through a communtiy, (Hunters Creek in this case) the community members who object are labeled NIMBYS, and in this weird case, are told they should pick up the cost for another route. Hypocritical.
No I think it is a consistent argument. You have a small group of people insisting that the eminent domain or negative economic impact of taking the land for the railroad ROW should be higher because they do not want to be impacted. It is again a good of the many vs the few argument. That and of course imposing two doglegs into the route of the line will slow speeds and impact service over the whole line. I don't think the argument will prevail in a court room. We'll see if it gets that far or Brightline caves in.
CMStPnP In the specific case you mention. Hey I am fine with shifting the route to give better access to Universal Studios and the like BUT in all fairness, they should pay the cost difference between the new route and the old route not Brightline.
In the specific case you mention. Hey I am fine with shifting the route to give better access to Universal Studios and the like BUT in all fairness, they should pay the cost difference between the new route and the old route not Brightline.
Why should they? Typical foamer board. If someone builds a house next to the tracks, then complains about the noise, they are told the tracks were there first. When a railroad is trying to build tracks through a communtiy, (Hunters Creek in this case) the community members who object are labeled NIMBYS, and in this weird case, are told they should pick up the cost for another route.
Hypocritical.
An "expensive model collector"
York1I'm talking about the Brightline path from MCO to Disney Springs. Brightline wants to use 417's ROW, which would diminish tolls, use eminent domain on several properties, and bypass other Orange County sites to deliver passengers directly to Disney. While I don't blame Brightline for wanting that route, I will always side with property owners. If I owned property along or near the route, I would be talking to my congressman everyday wondering why I may lose my land or diminish my property's value so that Disney, and Brightline's millionaire investors, will benefit. A congressman representing the people in his district is the epitome of a democratic republic.
I am not sure if you had any real estate law courses or not. However, that is part of the price of living in a Democracy. The government can allow your property to be taken with just compensation given to you for the land......if they can argue the good of the many far outweighs the retention of the land by the one or the few. Congress wrote that specific law of emminent domain as well. Since most land in this country, especially around railroad lines was Federal to begin with. Arguing the property rights argument over eminent domain is not a strong argument since yourself, your ancestors, or the chain of people before you... obtained the land from the railway or the Feds to begin with.
Diminished tolls are a red herring argument. Which I would like to see presented in a court room because the fact is also because of the rail line being built it can be shown it is significantly diminishing auto emissions as well which results in avoidance of EPA fines and EPA remediation. Even under electric automotive power you still have an emissions reduction or carbon footprint reduction. If I am not mistaken some of the tolls or road taxes in the very same area go to pay for SunRail? So it is also a circular argument to argue that Brightline's impact on tolls is impacting Florida negatively.
In the specific case you mention. Hey I am fine with shifting the route to give better access to Universal Studios and the like BUT in all fairness, they should pay the cost difference between the new route and the old route not Brightline. It's like a $1.4 Billion difference. Not small potatoes and Brightline could use the same argument as your using. It's being railroaded into accepting a higher cost right of way for the benefit of a few wealthy Corporations.
Interesting note: Fortress Investments owns Rail America as well.
CMStPnP Actually No, it was a group led by former CEO of American Airlines, Robert Crandall whom was against FEC running the trains over existing rails because of increased traffic and the feeling that the "local riff-raff" from downtown Miami (yes, that is a form of racism), would now have increased access to their communities and allegedly increase the crime rate and lower property values. That was their main argument added with the argument the system would never be profitable and Florida would be forced to step in and subsidize it or left with a half constructed system. I think if you check, Brightline hasn't used any or much of any eminent domain to keep costs low. It's new line runs primarily on state owned land easements.
Actually No, it was a group led by former CEO of American Airlines, Robert Crandall whom was against FEC running the trains over existing rails because of increased traffic and the feeling that the "local riff-raff" from downtown Miami (yes, that is a form of racism), would now have increased access to their communities and allegedly increase the crime rate and lower property values. That was their main argument added with the argument the system would never be profitable and Florida would be forced to step in and subsidize it or left with a half constructed system. I think if you check, Brightline hasn't used any or much of any eminent domain to keep costs low. It's new line runs primarily on state owned land easements.
York1It's possible this representative sided with property owners because he believed that it is wrong to take private property. I do. A group of millionaire and billionaire investors forcing someone to give up their land is also a corruption of the democratic system. That wealthy group of investors who bought the billions in bonds is hoping to make a lot of money by taking that land.
BaltACDFlorida Corrupt?
No local voters enjoy having a railroad as a neighbor, particularly a fast one. Should it be surprising that local representatives follow that line?
Likewise, if there is free money to be extortedobtained at the negotiating table, when the Highway authority holds the high cards... can you honestly blame them for trying to get their cake and eat it too?
Of course businessmen and capitalists are made of money, and Fortress especially so. Make them pay, and defend your constituents -- who largely don't benefit directly from either rail or its associated development -- from the heartless pursuit of selfish gain! Then soak 'em again with business taxes...
Likewise, if there is free money to be extortedobtained at the negotiating table, when the Highway authority holds the high cards... can you honestly blame them for try
CMStPnPEven more surprising is the Florida Congressional Representative who are anti-Amtrak with voting records whom always told the public they are OK with rail transit as long as it is privately run. Actually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route. I see that as corruption of our Democratic system,
It's possible this representative sided with property owners because he believed that it is wrong to take private property. I do.
A group of millionaire and billionaire investors forcing someone to give up their land is also a corruption of the democratic system. That wealthy group of investors who bought the billions in bonds is hoping to make a lot of money by taking that land.
CMStPnP MidlandMike The shocking thing about the video, is that the toll roads want Brightline to pay for the loss of tolls from those passengers who choose Brightline. Even more surprising is the Florida Congressional Representative who are anti-Amtrak with voting records whom always told the public they are OK with rail transit as long as it is privately run. Actually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route. I see that as corruption of our Democratic system, I cannot explain it any other way.
MidlandMike The shocking thing about the video, is that the toll roads want Brightline to pay for the loss of tolls from those passengers who choose Brightline.
Even more surprising is the Florida Congressional Representative who are anti-Amtrak with voting records whom always told the public they are OK with rail transit as long as it is privately run. Actually took a stance against Brightline in exchange for currying favor with wealthy residential and land owners along the route. I see that as corruption of our Democratic system, I cannot explain it any other way.
Florida Corrupt? Who knew!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
MidlandMikeThe shocking thing about the video, is that the toll roads want Brightline to pay for the loss of tolls from those passengers who choose Brightline.
CMStPnP MidlandMike The linked article says the box-jacked tunnel will be built under Route 528 just west if US 1. Looking at Google Earth, this is where the expressway is already on a fill leading to a bridge that crosses over the FEC mainline and US 1. Video mark 3:34 elapsed time video of BOX JACKING. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS97kwoDSHg
MidlandMike The linked article says the box-jacked tunnel will be built under Route 528 just west if US 1. Looking at Google Earth, this is where the expressway is already on a fill leading to a bridge that crosses over the FEC mainline and US 1.
The linked article says the box-jacked tunnel will be built under Route 528 just west if US 1. Looking at Google Earth, this is where the expressway is already on a fill leading to a bridge that crosses over the FEC mainline and US 1.
Video mark 3:34 elapsed time video of BOX JACKING.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS97kwoDSHg
The shocking thing about the video, is that the toll roads want Brightline to pay for the loss of tolls from those passengers who choose Brightline.
Brightline announces construction has met the 50 percent completion mark.
Rail News - Brightline completes first half of Orlando high-speed rail construction. For Railroad Career Professionals (progressiverailroading.com)
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