Midland Mike-- "But the toll plaza will be built on the Canadian side and they will keep the tolls. Your welcome."
Heh, heh, ... you bet. Thanks.
Some good people in history did have long lives. Queen Elizabeth might be a modern example.
Miningman It's my understanding that we are also paying for a new US customs building on US soil, under ' foreign aid' !! Oh well, you're welcome.
It's my understanding that we are also paying for a new US customs building on US soil, under ' foreign aid' !!
Oh well, you're welcome.
But the toll plaza will be built on the Canadian side and they will keep the tolls. Your welcome.
The bad thing is that if the old saying "only the good die young" is true, he could live forever...
Backshop-- 100% correct. Fought it tooth and nail.
I believe that part of the reason that Michigan didn't want to chip in for a new bridge is because of who didn't want it. I'm sure there were plenty of campaign contributions. It's the same person who used to own the MC station and let it go to hell. The antithesis of the Fords, Illitchs and Gilberts.
In 2018 the three suburban stations north of Detroit had a total of 73,477 passengers. Detroit had 65,548 and Dearborn had 72,270. So the suburban group is as significant as either of the other two.
https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3465/22.pdf
As far as Michigan Legislature's interest in international traffic, look at the proposed international highway bridge. Detroit is one of the busiest, in not the busiest, US-Canada border crossing. It relies on a bridge and a tunnel that are almost a century old, and at capacity. The auto industry heavily relies on it. With NAFTA a new bridge was viewed as a no-brainer. Nevertheless, the Mich. Legislature refused to spend a penny on it. It's only being built because Canada stepped-up to finance the whole thing.
Thanks for the clarification.
CBP is the parent agency of US Customs and US Border Patrol. ICE and TSA are separate agencies. All are under DHS. Customs operates recognized border crossing locations. Border Patrol covers areas between border crossings looking for illegal crossings. ICE is mainly concerned with organized crime smuggling material or human trafficking. I associate with members of all 3 on a weekly basis.
US Customs and Border Protection (CBP) since 2003. It would check passports and visas, but security if it would be required is part of TSA.
Just a comment on a few prior posts...I don't think that TSA or ICE would have anything to do with Amtrak crossborder trains. Any border inspections would be done by US Customs.
Dr DI would like to hear from anyone who finds the Pontiac to Detroit train service at all convenient?
I lived in the area prior to that service extension (first Southfield, MI, then Inkster, MI). Agree with your assessment of Dearborn and I have a real hard time believing that ridership would significantly disappear given those same exact people drive to Detroit Metro Airport to catch a plane (very close to the MC tracks). All of the sudden they are not going to make that same drive for the train? Really? Most of them did before the service extension. Sure the service extension added a few more riders due to convienece but I don't think it is a make or break the train sort of deal. And Detroit is a very nice counterweight politically to anyone living in the suburbs. Pretty sure Detroit will get a through train if the Ford family wants it that way.
Dr DNow current AMTRAK station in Detroit near the Fisher Building is a train station with all the beauty and attraction of a bus terminal. It is dangerous and the chances of a car left in the parking lot not being stolen are about zero. The AMTRAK station agent will tell you not to leave a car at the station. The new AMTRAK Dearborn is an entirely different situation with passengers cars left for weeks safely.
I used to work there on the 15th Floor of the GM Building 1991-1994. Even the monitored GM parking lots are worthless. The GM Guards just watch the crime happen on TV and nobody is apprehended or prosecuted. My car was dented and keyed and not by hoodlums but by the UAW because it was a Japanese model and parked in Detroit in a GM parking structure. Apparently a unforgivable sin. I directed the insurance company to go after GM. Not sure if they did or not but I did not pay the deductible on that damage.
At any rate, the New Center Amtrak Station was built as a temporary train structure and not intended to be permanent. At the point in time it was built Detroit was arguing where to build a permanent Amtrak station. Now with rehab of MC Station that debate will start all over again I am sure. However, I am pretty confident they will do as you suggest and the MC Station will be the new Detroit Amtrak station at least for the Toronto Service, possibly for all Amtrak trains. I disagree it even being a minor issue with the State of Michigan if the train bypasses the suburbs. I think the State would be very happy to have a through train again that is direct and fast.
I hope you are right, but what seem to be pretty minor technical difficulties to outsiders often seem to be insurmountable obstacles to Amtrak.
blue streak 1 Even better than the equipment between Canada and the U.S. on this line being 100% compatible, they will also share a pool of spare parts and can be fixed and/or maintained by VIA Rail in Canada or Amtrak in Chicago. That probably will not be true. VIA uses a HEP system that allows for a split system. Essentially 2 locos can provide separate HEP to alternate cars. Power enters left fron and exits out right rear. Locos set up same way. Amtrak HEP is all the same on both side of car and loco with just one loco allowed to provide HEP.
Even better than the equipment between Canada and the U.S. on this line being 100% compatible, they will also share a pool of spare parts and can be fixed and/or maintained by VIA Rail in Canada or Amtrak in Chicago.
That probably will not be true. VIA uses a HEP system that allows for a split system. Essentially 2 locos can provide separate HEP to alternate cars. Power enters left fron and exits out right rear. Locos set up same way. Amtrak HEP is all the same on both side of car and loco with just one loco allowed to provide HEP.
I'm sure they can engineer a way around that if they need to. We'll see. I thought the VIA Rail order included locomotives....not sure though.
As far as i remember I cant even get a Greyhound Bus from Detroit to Windsor without taking the tunnel bus and then getting a seperate bus on the Windsor Side.
MidlandMike,
I will offer you this observation about Detroit rail service having lived over 70 years in the city.
AMTRAK service is a political football not having much to do with the real world much of the time.
Historically the Grand Trunk Western subsidary to Canadian National operated passenger trains very successfully from Detroit to Durand MI roughly a northwest service by the compass. The Mohawk was their name train in the 60's with dining car service and parlor car but no sleeper. This was a fast train from Detroit to Royal Oak to Birmingham, to Pontiac to Durand and then on to Chicago. Not as fast as the direct run of the NYC but a way to hit the northern suburbs.
Grand Trunk also operated a line from Detroit to Port Huron roughly north by the compass. This was the line famous because Thomas Edison as a boy did science experiments on the train and sold news materials etc on the train. This has not had passenger service in my lifetime.
The current AMTRAK passenger rail line makes its journey from Pontiac down to Milwaukee Junction the a one mile transit to the NYC main line for the fast straight NYC run to Chicago. This bureaucratic miracle takes so much time no one in their right mind would ride it. It is easier to be an AMTRAK passenger and drive by car to Dearborn MI than ride the train by boarding in Pontiac - its that slow of a ride.
Now current AMTRAK station in Detroit near the Fisher Building is a train station with all the beauty and attraction of a bus terminal. It is dangerous and the chances of a car left in the parking lot not being stolen are about zero. The AMTRAK station agent will tell you not to leave a car at the station. The new AMTRAK Dearborn is an entirely different situation with passengers cars left for weeks safely.
Routine travelers to Chicago use the AMTRAK Dearborn to Chicago run the old NYC to really save time and expense over driving to Illinois and it is much easier but slower than flying which only takes about 1 hour if you can stomach the jet experience strip search and crowded cattle car experience.
AMTRAK would loose nothing by locating to the Michigan Central Station. It would acturally be easier to get to than Dearborn if the parking were made safe.
I would like to hear from anyone who finds the Pontiac to Detroit train service at all convenient?
--------------------
Dr. D
CMStPnPSo your going to have a train that serves Detroit and then Toronto and skips the Northern Suburbs (no big deal in my opinion and yes Michigan will still fund it). If passengers want to take the train to Toronto they will have to transfer in Dearborn, Michigan or at the New Center Detroit Station after traveling South for a bit from the suburbs and into Detroit. Second option of course is continue with the current route but extend it to Port Huron and use the old crossing into Canada, then there would be no split. However, that would take a lot more money and the train schedule would take a beating as well.
IIRC the northern suburbs contribute a lot more passengers than Detroit, so I would not be so sure that Michigan would fund a bypass. If the Toronto train started out on the present belt route around Detroit, once they pass the New (Detroit) Center station, they would have to make a choice at Milwaukee Junction, either to take the direct route to Port Huron, or continue on the present route thru the suburban stations and thence on to Durand and a long detour to Port Huron.
blue streak 1I really oppose using any funds or Amtrak equipment for a Detroit - Toronto train.
They would not need any extra equipment if the ran it like the previous International between CHI-TO via Port Huron. They used one ATK train set and one VIA train set. One of each set would start out at the opposite ends of the corridor, and run the entire route to the far end. Then the next day they would turn around and head back to the starting point. Since the mileage on either side of the border is about the same, each train spent about the same milage in the other country.
blue streak 1
Likely the Ford purchase is really about the revitalization of Detroit. Something which Ford has had a many generation long commitment to. The Michigan Central Station was built around the idea that it was a Station not a Terminal. This implies a lineside stop for thru trains. The NYC regularly ran thru from New York to Chicago which is not surprising considering the industrial importance of Detroit in past America. It was quite an engineering feat to build that tunnel under the Detroit River in 1904. So the fixed plant of "yesterdays dream" remains intact no matter how overlooked it is. A great station and facility still in place.
Secondly the City of Detroit in spite of its many failings in the modern age still remains one of America's great cities astride an international border. Meaning that aside from the motor car there is no transportation unity between the east and west sides of the metropolitan area. Let me correct this because the Detroit river flows east west then turns south in the middle of the city. This means that Detroit is north of Canada at this point.
Likely the Ford family realizes a tremendous rail transportation hub is possible through the tunnel connecting easy crossing between Windsor and Detroit and or any future rapid transit type of service. The original rail corredors still remain through the cities.
Regarding AMTRAK cross border service I believe the New York - Toronto service through Niagra Falls still exists on AMTRAK's timetable. When I made this crossing many years ago the Customs Officials would board the train walk through and inspect the passengers in each car. This of course was before 9/11 but likely some form of customs similar to what would be done in Detroit is done in Niagra Falls today.
I would venture the Ford family is big enough a player for a proposal to be heard by AMTRAK.
----------------------
daveklepperRegarding capacity between Winsor and Toronto, there is no problem, because the through trains would simply replace the appropriate Toronto - Winsor VIA schedules, or rather just extend those schedules to Detroit or even Chicago.
Actually more difficult than that. VIA Rail uses CN from Windsor to Toronto. MC Tunnel is CP Rail. Believe it or not, two different Windsor Train stations in different geographic locations and I do not believe there is a CP Rail connection to reach the current VIA Rail / former CN Rail Windsor station. CN Rail follows the waterfront in Windsor North from about the old Ferry docks to a distillery and then they turn East. CP Rail of course rises from underground AFTER the waterfront and heads straight East through Central Windsor and it's former Windsor station has been torn down I think. VIA Rail station on CN is Northern Windsor and close in to the waterfront.
So some work needs to be done here. Either VIA Rail / Amtrak need to construct a new Windsor station next to CP Rail or find a way to get the Amtrak train onto CN after the current Windsor station and establish possibly an EAST WINDSOR station that both Amtrak uses and the existing Windsor Corridor uses. Otherwise, the new Amtrak train will bypass Windsor altogether.
It's a rail mess that only the Canadians could invent. :)
daveklepper If one of the exizting daytime Chi. - Det. trains is selected as the day train to Toronto, it could still terminate at the existing Amtrak suburban station, with an across-the-platfrom connection to the Detroit - Toronto train at the Ford-Micigan-Central Station. The night train would run through, stopping only at F-MC, with a bus to and from the suburban station.
If one of the exizting daytime Chi. - Det. trains is selected as the day train to Toronto, it could still terminate at the existing Amtrak suburban station, with an across-the-platfrom connection to the Detroit - Toronto train at the Ford-Micigan-Central Station. The night train would run through, stopping only at F-MC, with a bus to and from the suburban station.
Dave, no that would not happen. Current Detroit to suburban route passes the cutoff to MC Station about 5 miles West and then curves away to the North and onto the suburbs. In order for your cross platform transfer to take place at MC station the train would have to travel East for 5 miles then back West for 5 miles and then North. Seriously doubt Amtrak will set something like that up.
So your going to have a train that serves Detroit and then Toronto and skips the Northern Suburbs (no big deal in my opinion and yes Michigan will still fund it). If passengers want to take the train to Toronto they will have to transfer in Dearborn, Michigan or at the New Center Detroit Station after traveling South for a bit from the suburbs and into Detroit. Second option of course is continue with the current route but extend it to Port Huron and use the old crossing into Canada, then there would be no split. However, that would take a lot more money and the train schedule would take a beating as well.
The service should be Chicago to Toronto, as these two cities have a good deal of potential passenger traffic.
blue streak 1Now if some one can provide the equipment and fund outside of Amtrak equipment that is a different possibility. .
Ha-ha, jarhead....
Windsor to Toronto is a popular corridor with like 5-6 trains daily. VIA Rail Canada has ordered new corridor equipment from Siemens just like the Midwest HSR compact has ($989 million order for Siemens just for this Corridor by VIA Rail).
The Michigan service trains would draw from the Midwest HSR equipment pool which is steadily being added to as each state steps up and contributes to that pool via funding. So it is NOT "Amtrak" Equipment it is "Amtrak Midwest" Equipment and will be painted as such and funded by the Midwest compact and not by Amtrak. Even better than the equipment between Canada and the U.S. on this line being 100% compatible, they will also share a pool of spare parts and can be fixed and/or maintained by VIA Rail in Canada or Amtrak in Chicago.
It is quite honestly one of those perfect marriages between two governmental systems. Pretty much Amtrak is just the contracted operator of the equipment. Even the track Chicago to Detroit is being upgraded and maintained primarily by the State of Michigan.....so not a big hit to Amtraks current budget. In fact I would not be surprised if the contract operations were profitable to Amtrak in 3-4 years time while the states still cover the subsidy.
I really oppose using any funds or Amtrak equipment for a Detroit - Toronto train. An extra assistant conductor for expanded train set DET - CHI and for CHI maintenance and cleaning requires money. We have been told that VIA is also short of Equipment so it would probably be Amtrak equipment.
The funds and equipment needs to be useful for more Amtrak service in the USA. I will admit that Amtrak already had 3 services to Canada but that mainly serves US residents. DET - Toronto will be mainly Canada.
Now if some one can provide the equipment and fund outside of Amtrak equipment that is a different possibility. .
When the Toronto-Chicago went through the tunnel into the US custom agents were brought over from the bridge and they boarded the train and checked everyone one by one. They arrested and detained a young Asian women in my car not to far from where I was sitting.
I had no trouble but watched out the window as the young lady was escorted into a waiting vehicle with cuffs on.
Went on to Chicago, stayed two nights and on to Flagstaff. Roomette, great meals, met lots of people. Separated smoking room in the Superliner Baggage Car, can't do that any more, met a lot more fun people. Great conversations. Always wondered about that gal though.
Enzoamps I think the border is the hangup. Airlines get people across the border quickly, but those people must go through Xray machines, magnetic scanners looking for metal, have their bags gone through and inspected. Stand in line a couple hours prior to boarding. On the train, I always have ticket in hand before I go. I can get to the station 10 minutes before the train, walk right on it, bring my uninspected luggage with me. I think it would be difficult for the conductors to accomplish all that riding between near-border stops.
I think the border is the hangup. Airlines get people across the border quickly, but those people must go through Xray machines, magnetic scanners looking for metal, have their bags gone through and inspected. Stand in line a couple hours prior to boarding.
On the train, I always have ticket in hand before I go. I can get to the station 10 minutes before the train, walk right on it, bring my uninspected luggage with me. I think it would be difficult for the conductors to accomplish all that riding between near-border stops.
As in some countries and trains (China, the Eurostar), bags can be scanned where passengers board. Passports are all that need to be checked in crossing.
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.