Parents and I took GTW from Chi to Toronto through Port Huron tunnel. CN took over at Toronto and we went on to Montreal, Quebec City and Ottawa all on CN. Would be nice to have that alternative again to get to Toronto. That was in 1968
Unfortunately, everything changed and continues to change since 9/11.
tree68 Back in the late '70's, we travelled from Syracuse to Detroit by rail. Pretty sure we were in a 'sealed' car, if you will - I don't recall dealing with customs at either border. We probably crossed into Canada at Black Rock. Got into Detroit (no doubt the MC station - I wasn't as savvy about it then) where my mother picked us up.
Back in the late '70's, we travelled from Syracuse to Detroit by rail. Pretty sure we were in a 'sealed' car, if you will - I don't recall dealing with customs at either border. We probably crossed into Canada at Black Rock.
Got into Detroit (no doubt the MC station - I wasn't as savvy about it then) where my mother picked us up.
In 1984, I rode overnight from New York City to Montreal--and saw no customs until we had arrived in Montreal. Because I had checked my suitcase in New York (no lockers were available because street people were using them), I had to let customs look inside it before I could claim it.
Johnny
In the mid-60s I took the GTW/CN from South Bend to Quebec City (Lévis). No problem with customs in either direction. Going east, Canadian customs boarded the train at either Lansing or Flint (they got to me just after we left Flint). Going west, U.S. customs interviewed me after we left Toronto, although on one other trip I went through US customs with my checked baggage at Central Station in Montreal.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
on the MON/QUE run it was all u could drink - price included in 1st class ticket cost. Lost money on me.
I'm not sure Amtrak or the customs people would have the skill or desire to implement a streamlined procedure today.
When I was a kid back in the summer of 1969 my parents, brother and I took the overnight train between Toronto and Chicago on a circle trip. US Customs inspectors were on the train starting in Toronto and did their duties while the train was moving if I remember correctly
blue streak 1Here is the recommended split HEP system recommended by US engineers that has not been adopted by Amtrak ! Dated 2000. https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/Standards_Documents/APTA-PR-E-RP-016-99.pdf
https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/Standards_Documents/APTA-PR-E-RP-016-99.pdf
The PRIIA spec from 2011 explicitly cites this standards document as the basis for its HEP design (see section 10.2, p.123 in my copy).
Note that there is a cognate Standard (https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/Standards_Documents/APTA-PR-E-RP-018-99.pdf) for the connectors and other cabling used with the system.
GeoPRR: The HEP situation in the US has a much more convoluted history than in Canada. Canadian F-40s all can provide 1000Kw HEP from each of their locos. With the split system that is why VIA can have 25 - 30 car trains on summer Canadians. That is 2 of the 3 locos are spliting the load.
Amtrak has stated that Auto -Train can support 18 cars with LED lighting and 16 - 17 cars with conventional lighting. All Auto train cars now modified to LED. Now early Amtrak locos had 500 - 600 Kw HEP. Believe Amtrak F-40s had 600 Kw HEP. As well P-40s were 600 as well. Now the 6 P-40s assigned to Auto train were changed to 1000 Kw. That is why those are stuck on Auto Train except occasional substitutions to P-42s. P-42- not sure if they were 1000 or less ? So if you can identify the locos pulling your train you may have a good idea if HEP was maxed out.
Now the Amtrak standard is 1000 kW . The ACS-64s actually have 2 1000 kW inverters but only one can provide power at a time. As well the Sprinters have 1000 kW as well. So the Amtrak standard will now allow 18 car trains. Have no idea if single level cars use less but suspect that may be so ? Also 2 diners are in consist of the Auto Train. If just one diner lack of that extra load might even allow slightly longer trains. The Safety Patrol Meteors this weekend might give an answer if longer single levels can be run with the P-42s that are assigned are 1000 kW capacity ?
Here is the recommended split HEP system recommended by US engineers that has not been adopted by Amtrak ! Dated 2000.
LAWRENCE SMITH Then a 1st class seat on a fast train to Toronto usually on time with decent food and plenty of wine. Pour yourself off at the historic toronto union station and grab a cab to your hotel.
My kind of person. How much is the wine?
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
LAWRENCE SMITHBut, if Bill Ford wants a train to stop at MCS.......
His motivation for wanting one is the same motivation Brightline has for station stops near large apartment complexes. Ford thinks having a mini-transit station there would attract workers to his company as well as he wants them to live close by Michigan Central Station and I think he is planning apartments as part of the MC rebuild either in or next to the station. So with the transit center he can charge higher rents.
I live in SE Mich. Those here who want to go to Toronto by train drive their own car over the border - usually via the tunnel - clear customs, then a brief drive to the VIA station and secure park. Then a 1st class seat on a fast train to Toronto usually on time with decent food and plenty of wine. Pour yourself off at the historic toronto union station and grab a cab to your hotel. If u live in say, chicago, you could do the same thing by timing your arrival in DET w/the VIA schedule to Toronto. Good luck w/that given Amtrak on time performance. I suppose there is an argument for an overnight w/sleepers run by amtrak on VIA rails. Why not go through Battle Creek/Port huron instead? THis is an existing Amtrak route to PH and there is already an Amtrak station there just on the US side of the border at PH. Would have to figure out customs. This could cater to those outside SE Mich. Let SE Mich pssgrs take VIA. VIA knows how to run pssgr trains - I took a 1st clss seat last yr Montreal to Quebec City - 90mph running, clean, good food and unlimited wine, on-time. But, if Bill Ford wants a train to stop at MCS.......
CNSFAs to the original topic, through trains are not the answer. The Toronto-New York train no longer has border clearance performed on board. Everyone and their luggage comes off for interrogation and possible search at Niagara Falls, and the train itself is searched for contraband. It takes at least an hour, sometimes more. Let's face it, the world has changed. Would you want to be the one seated next to the potentially armed terrorist or drug dealer when the on-board customs interrogation starts to get testy? The far better solution is to pick one station and have multiple VIA and Amtrak trains terminate there. Instead of just one cross-border service daily, passengers could potentially make connections between all the Detroit-Chicago and Detroit-Toronto schedules. Ideally, this would be done at MC Station at Detroit/Windsor. Both Canada and US customs agents could be located there. Unfortunately, I believe that current US law precludes this, because it would not allow the Canadian border agents to enforce Canadian, rather than US, law on US soil. (That's why we have both US and Canadian customs clearance at most large Canadian airports, but not at any US airports) So, unless this changes, we'd have to build a new facility in Windsor and have Amtrak's Detroit trains terminate there.
Board the customs officials in Chicago and clear the folks as they get on the train. Folks that are cleared sit in sealed passenger coaches behind the customs station on the train, folks that are not cleared sit in coaches in front of the customs station. You can easily design a partition for the snack or dining car that serves both sealed and unsealed parts of the train.
Once the train reaches Detroit, then you only have to clear the Detroit passengers possibly the Dearborn passengers as well. Hold the train until that is done, cross the border to Windsor where Canadian Customs detrains and the sealed cars are unsealed. If a seal is broken en route then delay the train in Detroit for reclearence of the whole train.
I have a hunch that is how the Europeans did it, though the Europeans used placards on the side of the car next to the vestibule door showing some of the destinations where that car would go. I only crossed the border into East Germany from West Germany and everyone remained on the train while East German customs made a sweep both on board the train and underneath then the train was sealed for the rest of the journey across East Germany and did not stop until Berlin. Nobody had to leave the train. The East German border was a LOT more strict than any U.S. Border crossing and the check there only took 20-30 min for a full train. So the full hour nonsense is slow moving people.
Canada has its own constitution. The only connection to the UK is that we share the Queen as head of state. The UK could decide to ditch the monarchy and become a republic, and it would not affect Canada. The Queen would still be head of state of Canada until Canada decides otherwise.
As to the original topic, through trains are not the answer. The Toronto-New York train no longer has border clearance performed on board. Everyone and their luggage comes off for interrogation and possible search at Niagara Falls, and the train itself is searched for contraband. It takes at least an hour, sometimes more. Let's face it, the world has changed. Would you want to be the one seated next to the potentially armed terrorist or drug dealer when the on-board customs interrogation starts to get testy?
The far better solution is to pick one station and have multiple VIA and Amtrak trains terminate there. Instead of just one cross-border service daily, passengers could potentially make connections between all the Detroit-Chicago and Detroit-Toronto schedules. Ideally, this would be done at MC Station at Detroit/Windsor. Both Canada and US customs agents could be located there. Unfortunately, I believe that current US law precludes this, because it would not allow the Canadian border agents to enforce Canadian, rather than US, law on US soil. (That's why we have both US and Canadian customs clearance at most large Canadian airports, but not at any US airports) So, unless this changes, we'd have to build a new facility in Windsor and have Amtrak's Detroit trains terminate there.
blue streak 1 - You have answered a question that has bothered me for many years - When Amtrak was operating to Montreal, I had several personal experiences where the HEP was incapable of heating the consist when it got to about 12 cars, yet VIA seemed ok with larger consists in similar extreme cold. The VIA system seems like a no-brainer. Am I correct?
Even better than the equipment between Canada and the U.S. on this line being 100% compatible, they will also share a pool of spare parts and can be fixed and/or maintained by VIA Rail in Canada or Amtrak in Chicago.
That probably will not be true. VIA uses a HEP system that allows for a split system. Essentially 2 locos can provide separate HEP to alternate cars. Power enters left fron and exits out right rear. Locos set up same way. Amtrak HEP is all the same on both side of car and loco with just one loco allowed to provide HEP.
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Dr DConstitution and Bill of Rights which do not exist in England.
England has a Bill of Rights.
https://www.history.com/topics/british-history/english-bill-of-rights
charlie hebdo He sounds somewhat deranged.
He sounds somewhat deranged.
charlie hebdoIf he doesn't maintain property, it can be cleaned up by a local government and charge him. If he won't pay, the property could be seized. Sounds like officials are bribed by him to look the other way.
This was Detroit in the 1990's which was pretty much a failed state by any measure of the phrase. The Detroit of today, post bankruptcy.....can apply a lot more pressure to an individual then the Detroit of the 1990's. Pretty sure that is why he sold it finally.
charlie hebdo If he doesn't maintain property, it can be cleaned up by a local government and charge him. If he won't pay, the property could be seized. Sounds like officials are bribed by him to look the other way.
If he doesn't maintain property, it can be cleaned up by a local government and charge him. If he won't pay, the property could be seized. Sounds like officials are bribed by him to look the other way.
60 minutes did an expose on him years back.
Correct. He buys up property and doesn't maintain it. He just doesn't want anyone else to be able to do anything near his properties. One of his main trucking companies, PAM Transport, is considered in the Bottom 3 of the worst companies. The other two are generally considered to be CRST and CR England.
I went over the Ambassador bridge a few years ago and asked the US customs guy if it was true that Matty Maroun owned the bridge. I still find it hard to grasp that one man could own that thing. He went into a 5 minute rant about his working conditions, how the building he works out of is falling apart and the US pays Maroun a million dollars a year to use it. He was not too happy about it to say the least. He also said and other people I met in Windsor said that Maroun owned most of the land along both river banks and all the buildings located on that land. I guess the locations for the new bridge were not owned by him.
Revising a previous proposal account of where the tracks go: Dearborn - Toronto service, not Detroit - Toronto service. Stopping at Ford-NC, of course.
Day train: connection to Chicago at Dearborn
Night train: Through, buses between suburbs and F-MC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NYFq7ZJg4c
Manuel "Matty" Maroun. I noticed the latest Trains article on the MC station treaded very lightly on him being the prior owner, not even mentioning him by name. His lawyers probably contacted them. Not a nice man, IMHO.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manuel_Moroun
Backshop I believe that part of the reason that Michigan didn't want to chip in for a new bridge is because of who didn't want it. I'm sure there were plenty of campaign contributions. It's the same person who used to own the MC station and let it go to hell. The antithesis of the Fords, Illitchs and Gilberts.
I believe that part of the reason that Michigan didn't want to chip in for a new bridge is because of who didn't want it. I'm sure there were plenty of campaign contributions. It's the same person who used to own the MC station and let it go to hell. The antithesis of the Fords, Illitchs and Gilberts.
Who was that?
Midland Mike,
The US Customs for airline flights exists in Toronto and clears overseas travelers before they fly into the USA. The US Customs building in Canada is thought out along new similar lines. I am not sure but this may have started during the Obama era but it seems strange in a traditional sense.
Before the 9/11 incident the citizens of Detroit enjoyed a wide open access to each other across the international border. One could enjoy the water travel freely between both countries. Eat at restaurants on both sides of the river at will with little care from either nation. This has all radically changed. Canadians can come and go still without much care from their govenment. For the US Citizen this is not so. You cannot land or anchor in Canada or recieve passengers from Canada without calling and going thru US Customs.
I believe that according to the US Patriot Act the US Govenment my evesdrop on all phone and communications without obtaining legal permission within 9 miles of any US border. So living in Detroit is a city with heavy US govenmental supervision. Illegal immigration across the Detroit border is a very serious problem and much of the illegal imigration from the far east comes thru and much is un opposed. Canada has very little in the way of US type national security in the traditional sense of understanding and relies to some degree on the US.
The Canadiam Border is patrolled by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Maratime Officers and of course the Windsor Police and occasionally the Canadian Navy. The Queen of England is the monarch of Canada and the Parlament meets with her permission. This is something most Americans are not too familiar with as they are ignorant of their own written Constitution and Bill of Rights which do not exist in England. England has a traditional and unwritten constitution.
I am somewhat familiar with this as a Marine Safety Officer and Vice Flotilla Commander in the US Coast Guard Auxilliary. I do spend some time with the Air and Marine Patrol of the border.
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Dr. D
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