Decades ago, my town was served by beautiful passenger trains. It has two active freight lines, but they are not extremely active as they see about 1 train each per hour. There are four cities in each cardinal direction (north, east, south, and west) that I think would be awesome to reestablish passenger rail service between. So, how would someone go about doing that?
Morgan LeFayDecades ago, my town was served by beautiful passenger trains. It has two active freight lines, but they are not extremely active as they see about 1 train each per hour. There are four cities in each cardinal direction (north, east, south, and west) that I think would be awesome to reestablish passenger rail service between. So, how would someone go about doing that?
Start with Bill Gates fortune, 1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints. 2nd kiss the rest of your fortune goodbye.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
This post is deleted.
After you've gotten ahold of Bill Gates' fortune...
Establish need. The railroad may sound like a great idea, but you need people to ride it. Many new transit operations have been pleasantly surprised when ridership has exceeded expectation, but not all.
Were will your riders go to and from? Where will your riders "interchange" with other trains or modes of travel? Freight usage notwithstanding, will you be able to offer trips that make sense?
Read up on break-even mileages for various modes of transportation. Will you be able to leverage that for your operation?
How many passengers will be required to simply break even - include track rental, insurance, depreciation, fuel, labor costs (including the janitor) and anything else you can think of that will cost money.
Consider local support - will your politicians and residents be on board with the idea? Will you have to build anything? Read up on Brightline (Florida)
Good Luck!
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The trains would go to one city with a population of 2 million, a city with a population of 1 million and two cities each with a population of 500k.
One train per hour per line is pretty darn busy by freight railroad standards. If that is the case you will almost certainly have to build additional track capacity.
What is the population of each city in this area, and does any transit/public transportation service already exist between them? If so, what are it's ridership figures?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
For some stupid reason, a reply I tried did not show up. So, here goes another one. One city I would like to service has 2 million people. Another city has 1 million and two others each have 500k people.
I'll give you a non-sarcastic answer. You first have to form a group of like minded people that agree with you. Then you have to come up with a source of funds to fund a DOT study, either via lobbying your local officials to get them to vote for that via the state (quickest option). You have to make a business case on why you think this service would be better than bus service and/or leaving things as they are in order to persuade legislators to stick their neck out.
A good test case and one that will put pressure on the legislature is the approach that was used in Milwaukee to intervene and improve the Milwaukee to Chicago service. Start with a group of businessmen that meets regularly like Rotary or Chamber of Congress group. Present a persuasive case in front of them and ask for their support or active endorsement and build from there. Why a business group? Because it tells Democrats they are not going to get lambasted during the next political campaign for supporting the passenger train proposal as well as encourages Republicans to stick their neck out as well. Always go to local busines groups first. Additionally, most business groups are made up of independent business people and as such are highly skeptical of such proposals so the old NEW YORK, NEW YORK parable applies if you can convince them, you can pretty much convince anyone. So going to a business group first will tell you what kind of persuasion work effort your looking at to achieve your goal.
Last but not least, read up on other DOT rail passenger studies and become familiar with the naysayer arguments and rebuttals. Among the most prominent is buses can do what trains can and they are far cheaper. However buses do not last as long as trains, are not as efficient as trains on a per rider per energy consumed basis BUT most important of all there is not a 100% transferrance of rail passengers to bus and never has been. When given a choice most people would rather ride rail than a bus. Comfort and security is the biggest reason.
So there are some starting points for you. It is going to take a lot of work to get from concept in your head to an actual demo train running over the route. I think you can get to at least a taxpayer funded demo train if you work your butt off and persuade a significant business group to back you. Be prepared for a lot of NO's along the way and for this to be a multi-year and possibly multi-decade effort. Depending on the resistance or push back.
SD70Dude One train per hour per line is pretty darn busy by freight railroad standards. If that is the case you will almost certainly have to build additional track capacity. What is the population of each city in this area, and does any transit/public transportation service already exist between them? If so, what are it's ridership figures?
Alternative here is there are two routes you can get one railroad to shift some of their trains to another route. I got a good chuckle at CP insisting they need to add more rail capacity for adding just one additional Amtrak frequency on Chicago to Twin Cities. At the time CP had two mostly seperate underutilized Twin City to Chicago routes..........they can't shift traffic to another route? Yeah right.
CP still has two Chicago to Twin Cities routes they converge between La Crosse and St. Paul but is that such a huge distance for one additional passenger train? I find it difficult to believe but maybe they have a case.....beats me.
Milwaukee to Chicago proposal for train frequency increase (beyond 10 roundtrips) has the CP moving some of their trains over to one of the Milwaukee to Chicago ex-C&NW mains. As it is for the 3 additional round trips to get to 10 the plan is to pay for CTC through the Milwaukee passenger depot (remote dispatching?) and develop a route via Muskego Yard for freight trains to bypass the depot area all together using a route via the Yard that the DOT would pay to add CTC too.
That last improvement in my mind HAS to be faster than routing freights through the extremely sharp curve into the Amtrak depot, one wonders why the CP didn't develope and pay for it on their own.......my feeling is they want to sell that Muskego Yard real estate for big bucks instead and keeping tracks that run through the center of it would lower the price they could otherwise get.
Anyhow, wanted to mention the alternatives.
BaltACD....1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints....
I'm shocked! Just shocked by your assertion that our fine politicians can be bought. Collude with a foreign power, lie when they speak, ignore the wishes of the people, yes; but be bought?!? No way!
zardozBaltACD ....1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints.... I'm shocked! Just shocked by your assertion that our fine politicians can be bought. Collude with a foreign power, lie when they speak, ignore the wishes of the people, yes; but be bought?!? No way!
....1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVDGmjz7eM
Just sub trains in for anything factory related and you will be pretty close.
BaltACD zardoz BaltACD ....1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints.... I'm shocked! Just shocked by your assertion that our fine politicians can be bought. Collude with a foreign power, lie when they speak, ignore the wishes of the people, yes; but be bought?!? No way!
zardoz BaltACD ....1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints.... I'm shocked! Just shocked by your assertion that our fine politicians can be bought. Collude with a foreign power, lie when they speak, ignore the wishes of the people, yes; but be bought?!? No way!
BaltACD ....1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints....
Of course you can't buy politicians. But you can rent them.
Jeff
jeffhergert zardoz BaltACD ....1st buy politicians to support your viewpoints.... I'm shocked! Just shocked by your assertion that our fine politicians can be bought. Collude with a foreign power, lie when they speak, ignore the wishes of the people, yes; but be bought?!? No way! Of course you can't buy politicians. But you can rent them. Jeff
I don't know, Al Capone once said "An honest politician is one who when he's bought, STAYS bought!"
Well the fun just starts with the politicians... there are the inspectors, the permit people, the unions, the waste disposal guys (and you know who runs those guys), various contractors and opportunists that sue you because they slipped and fell and their modelling career was ruined.
Then you need the politicians again to make some of this go away.
Firelock76 I don't know, Al Capone once said "An honest politician is one who when he's bought, STAYS bought!"
Firelock,
To the best of my knowledge this statement was first uttered by either Commodore Vanderbilt or Jay Gould after they had both plied most of the legislators of New York state with cash.
Mac
To reestablish passenger service because it's "Awsome"?
I'll suggest three things you'll need to start with. Lawyers, guns, and money.
Miningman...and opportunists that sue you because they slipped and fell and their modelling career was ruined.
And here all along I thought modeling was just a hobby!
PNWRMNM Firelock76 I don't know, Al Capone once said "An honest politician is one who when he's bought, STAYS bought!" Firelock, To the best of my knowledge this statement was first uttered by either Commodore Vanderbilt or Jay Gould after they had both plied most of the legislators of New York state with cash. Mac
OK then, how about a quote from John Dillinger?
"Never trust an automatic or a D.A.'s deal!"
And I'll give the last word to Sam Giancana. Sitting in a seafood restaurant he pointed to a stuffed swordfish hanging on the wall and said...
"You see that fish? If he'd kept his mouth shut he wouldn't have got caught!"
Follow the bright line model. They have re-establish passenger service on the FEC in a serious manner, that hasn't seen a regularly scheduled train since 1963. They definitely must have good lawyer, plus the governor on thier side.
ROBERT WILLISONFollow the bright line model. They have re-establish passenger service on the FEC in a serious manner, that hasn't seen a regularly scheduled train since 1963. They definitely must have good lawyer, plus the governor on thier side.
Brightline is land speculation project that was started by the FEC's ownership about a decade ago. Since FEC's ownership started the project, they didn't have to have at contentious fight over trackage rights from Miami to WPB. Their payoff will not be in the passengers that they handle but in the real estate appreciation that happens when the get their leg from WPB to Orlando completed and operational.
Since the original start of the project both FEC and the Project itself have changed ownership hands.
If you are following the Brightline model, you better own land that you want to open up to development and use passenger operation as a means to bring people to the property.
BaltACD ROBERT WILLISON Follow the bright line model. They have re-establish passenger service on the FEC in a serious manner, that hasn't seen a regularly scheduled train since 1963. They definitely must have good lawyer, plus the governor on thier side. Brightline is land speculation project that was started by the FEC's ownership about a decade ago. Since FEC's ownership started the project, they didn't have to have at contentious fight over trackage rights from Miami to WPB. Their payoff will not be in the passengers that they handle but in the real estate appreciation that happens when the get their leg from WPB to Orlando completed and operational. Since the original start of the project both FEC and the Project itself have changed ownership hands. If you are following the Brightline model, you better own land that you want to open up to development and use passenger operation as a means to bring people to the property.
ROBERT WILLISON Follow the bright line model. They have re-establish passenger service on the FEC in a serious manner, that hasn't seen a regularly scheduled train since 1963. They definitely must have good lawyer, plus the governor on thier side.
A 21st century version of the "streetcar suburb".
Worked back then, seems to be working now.
Very fitting as the the FEC was originally built as part of Henry Flagler's scheme to develop south Florida.
SD70Dude As you stated, the bright line is based on land development. As were many railroads during the early expansion n the 19 the century. As most have stated here the process will require lots of money. The question, how to re establish passenger rail. The only working model we have so far is bright line. Thier plan to leverage rail service around an asset they own, real estate. This is a real world answer to the question, is it not? Will it work, is the question. Just saying. BaltACD ROBERT WILLISON Follow the bright line model. They have re-establish passenger service on the FEC in a serious manner, that hasn't seen a regularly scheduled train since 1963. They definitely must have good lawyer, plus the governor on thier side. Brightline is land speculation project that was started by the FEC's ownership about a decade ago. Since FEC's ownership started the project, they didn't have to have at contentious fight over trackage rights from Miami to WPB. Their payoff will not be in the passengers that they handle but in the real estate appreciation that happens when the get their leg from WPB to Orlando completed and operational. Since the original start of the project both FEC and the Project itself have changed ownership hands. If you are following the Brightline model, you better own land that you want to open up to development and use passenger operation as a means to bring people to the property. A 21st century version of the "streetcar suburb". Worked back then, seems to be working now. Very fitting as the the FEC was originally built as part of Henry Flagler's scheme to develop south Florida.
If the way forward for any new passenger rail projects ala Bright Line is as an appendage to real estate development, what real estate projects are envisioned for the California High Speed Rail Project? Who would do the developements? And who would own them?
In the case of the Texas Central Railway, while there are some real estate development opportunities near the proposed Dallas station and maybe near the north Houston station, the opportunities in between Dallas and Houston would appear to be few and far between.
I have the impression that Bright Line is serving a very dense corridor between Miami and West Palm Beach with numerous opportunities for real estate development. But I could be wrong on all three scores. Would not be the first time.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
I think you hit the nail on the head about bright line. Real estate opportunities couple with a dense population and the highway infrastructure, streched to the limit created an opportunity for higher speed rail to make an impact. The question become's can bright line become sustainable? Brightline will benefit from Florida being a tourist destination. Miami international airport, Ft Lauderdale international airport, Palm Beach international, will provide connecting traffic to the ports in South Florida and Port Canaveral to Disney world in Orlando. Bright line has already made an impact on local commuters between West Palm Beach and South Florida. It's will increase it's impact when the line is opened north to Melbourne, Struat and Port Staint Lucie all funneling traffic north and south on I 95.
It might not work in other areas, who knows, but it has a shot in Florida.
PJS1In the case of the Texas Central Railway, while there are some real estate development opportunities near the proposed Dallas station and maybe near the north Houston station, the opportunities in between Dallas and Houston would appear to be few and far between.
It's not the same model. Texas Central will be operating at close to twice the speed of Brightline on a grade seperated, brand new, right of way. The speed difference alone I believe will attract more passengers to Texas Central than if it ran 125 mph. Texas Central has also not ruled out completely one intermediate stop, they only stated they do not want to add a LOT more stops as it will impact average point to point speed which they feel they need to keep high to be more competitive. Additionally, we might also see Texas Central complete for mail contracts, express cargo and the like that the Airlines also fly..........too early to tell there.
Morgan LeFay Decades ago, my town was served by beautiful passenger trains. It has two active freight lines, but they are not extremely active as they see about 1 train each per hour. There are four cities in each cardinal direction (north, east, south, and west) that I think would be awesome to reestablish passenger rail service between. So, how would someone go about doing that?
I think that a good first step would be to familiarize yourself with the intimacies of why those "beautiful passenger trains" are no longer serving your town. A couple semesters of economics and a couple more of US history focused on the 20th century ought to bring you up to speed.
In a nutshell, you're going to have to prove a viable business model to people who have money, and convince them that your idea is the best use of their money.
If passenger rail could be profitable, investors would be knocking down the doors looking to find projects to fund.
Spoiler alert, the first and last sentances of my reply really say the same thing.
greyhoundsI'll suggest three things you'll need to start with. Lawyers, guns, and money.
That's about as good an answer as any, .....well played!
Just a week ago (plus a couple of days) a friend of mine completed a trip on the Southwest Chief -- Amtrak trains 4 and 3 -- from Flagstaff, AZ to Mendota, IL and return. She had a wonderful time, met many fine people, and had excellent service from her car attendants and the dining staff.
Without any exception the passengers and crew were thrilled with the experience and thoroughly enjoyed train travel. However, there was a common complaint about the "direction" (or lack thereof) which Amtrak seems bent upon taking. The current CEO, Mr. Anderson, has acquired a nickname, "Dickie Delta", referencing his past association with the top job at Delta Airlines. Mr. Anderson is bringing much of his experience at Delta to Amtrak, and hopefully he will find it just isn't the same and doesn't work. The current efforts to either cut back on or completely eliminate meal service is a farce at best. The object, just as with almost everywhere else, is to cut costs by decreasing products served and eliminating crew members. It's hard for me with 34 years experience in a "Service Industry" to understand just exactly "how" eliminating "service" furthers the goals of providing a "service", but perhaps that's just my overly logical mind searching for "reason".
The current pricing structure in securing a roomette or a bedroom also seems to defy logic. What's wrong with the old way of establishing a cost for the product and staying with selling that product at the established cost? Why continually try to "bilk" the passenger for every last cent? Yes, it contributes to the bottom line, but it also irritates the very people you're trying to attract when they have to change a schedule.
I'm not sure whether or not I'm being optimistic, nostalgic, or engaging in wishful thinking, but in my opinion what's needed is a national comittment to actually "running" a passenger railroad, obtaining or laying dedicated tracks, securing adequate equipment, and actually "running" that railroad. Until such time as such a comittment is made, and Congress and politicians QUIT "playing" with Amtrak, we'll suffer the never-ending plethora of "changes" and "schemes" which currently exist.
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