cx500Do you have anything other than the one phrase in the Washington Post article to support your opinion?
I have not seen "one phrase" from you or anyone else to the contrary.
243129 VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 The article certainly does support my theory. I don’t know how often I read the article. The sentence that in your opinion supports your statement that Europe and Japan rebuilt their trackwork as straight as possible after WW2 is this one: But here in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, in prosperous, modern cities, in products from perfume to fighter jets. As I said before the article describes the situation in the 1990. It doesn’t support your statement. There were no modern, prosperous cities in the 1950s and jet fighters even less. The first German built aircrafts were allowed in 1956. Jet fighters were commissioned in Europe except the UK beginning in the mid to late 1950s, in Germany in the 1960s. Quote 243129: You and others seem to focus on Germany exclusively. Europeand Japan were bombed in to rubble. My concentration on Germany is for a reason as you know. On the other hand Germany stands as an example for what happened in other European countries after WW2. For Japan your statement is unlikely too. Why rebuild the cape gauge network with higher speeds in mind when you know that you need standard gauge for high speed? And they knew it because they started a standard gauge line between Tokyo and Osaka for higher speeds in September 1940. Why is it so difficult to admit that one’s information were perhaps not correct? I linked a wrongly labeled Acela cab. Things like that happen. For people interested how railroading in Germany in the late 1940s looked like here a few links. I hope they work. I can't edit them. Excerpt from a three part documentary about German railroads from 1945 to 2011 on the occasion of 175 years German railways: I translated the narration from 0:42 – 1:11 2,700 miles of track were destroyed. Destroyed were also 3,149 railway bridges and 75 tunnels. The railway, the only available mass transportation system in Germany, needed to function immediately. Without it there would be no reconstruction of Germany. The big chance to simultaneously rebuild and modernize the more than 100 year old network had to wait. Emergency operations were given priority. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMHGsZckkaU And some pictures. They show people mostly on forage trips to the country side to trade their valuables for food. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oPS-K10txKQ/S9av6ezZ_DI/AAAAAAAACBo/5IsqebytkUA/s1600/1945-die+ersten+Z%25C3%25BCge-.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/d3/bc/e1d3bc0d6213cc9493c4a9d10c93d96d.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-N0304-310%2C_Berlin%2C_Reiseverkehr_nach_dem_Krieg.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-N0304-308%2C_Berlin%2C_Reiseverkehr_in_der_ersten_Nachkriegszeit.jpg https://www.hamburg.de/image/4407282/portrait/383/518/c3e7fc25353fd6c0a99d457e5f1be3aa/qa/02-hamsterfahrt-1947.jpg http://www.technikmuseum-online.de/homepage_dateien/beitrag_22_dateien/hamsterzug.jpg Regards, Volker Read it.
VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 The article certainly does support my theory. I don’t know how often I read the article. The sentence that in your opinion supports your statement that Europe and Japan rebuilt their trackwork as straight as possible after WW2 is this one: But here in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, in prosperous, modern cities, in products from perfume to fighter jets. As I said before the article describes the situation in the 1990. It doesn’t support your statement. There were no modern, prosperous cities in the 1950s and jet fighters even less. The first German built aircrafts were allowed in 1956. Jet fighters were commissioned in Europe except the UK beginning in the mid to late 1950s, in Germany in the 1960s. Quote 243129: You and others seem to focus on Germany exclusively. Europeand Japan were bombed in to rubble. My concentration on Germany is for a reason as you know. On the other hand Germany stands as an example for what happened in other European countries after WW2. For Japan your statement is unlikely too. Why rebuild the cape gauge network with higher speeds in mind when you know that you need standard gauge for high speed? And they knew it because they started a standard gauge line between Tokyo and Osaka for higher speeds in September 1940. Why is it so difficult to admit that one’s information were perhaps not correct? I linked a wrongly labeled Acela cab. Things like that happen. For people interested how railroading in Germany in the late 1940s looked like here a few links. I hope they work. I can't edit them. Excerpt from a three part documentary about German railroads from 1945 to 2011 on the occasion of 175 years German railways: I translated the narration from 0:42 – 1:11 2,700 miles of track were destroyed. Destroyed were also 3,149 railway bridges and 75 tunnels. The railway, the only available mass transportation system in Germany, needed to function immediately. Without it there would be no reconstruction of Germany. The big chance to simultaneously rebuild and modernize the more than 100 year old network had to wait. Emergency operations were given priority. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMHGsZckkaU And some pictures. They show people mostly on forage trips to the country side to trade their valuables for food. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-oPS-K10txKQ/S9av6ezZ_DI/AAAAAAAACBo/5IsqebytkUA/s1600/1945-die+ersten+Z%25C3%25BCge-.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e1/d3/bc/e1d3bc0d6213cc9493c4a9d10c93d96d.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-N0304-310%2C_Berlin%2C_Reiseverkehr_nach_dem_Krieg.jpg https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-N0304-308%2C_Berlin%2C_Reiseverkehr_in_der_ersten_Nachkriegszeit.jpg https://www.hamburg.de/image/4407282/portrait/383/518/c3e7fc25353fd6c0a99d457e5f1be3aa/qa/02-hamsterfahrt-1947.jpg http://www.technikmuseum-online.de/homepage_dateien/beitrag_22_dateien/hamsterzug.jpg Regards, Volker
243129 The article certainly does support my theory.
Read it.
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And of course we know that the newspapers always present completely accurate reports. That is, of course, apart from every event where we have some knowledge of the actual events and see the errors, naive misinterpretations, or slanted reporting. The articles rarely show evidence of scholarly research, and this is no different.
You assumed the legacy was in the immediate aftermath of the war, even though I did not see it backed up by any details in the article. While I cannot cite specific sources, I have always maintained a casual interest in foreign railroading, especially British and to a lesser degree European, and have read widely over the years. Volker, who comes from the region in question, has also contradicted your assumption. Do you have anything other than the one phrase in the Washington Post article to support your opinion? (Note that there was no corroboration of the assertion in the article.)
Rebuilding the war damaged rail system did encourage a faster expansion of electric operation, replacing steam rather than going to diesels in many places, but that was not high tech. Regular use of steam continued for decades after it had effectively vanished in the USA or Canada due to economic constraints. The "High Tech" part only emerged some 40 years after the war ended, and was funded by the countries themselves, not the Marshall Plan. Mostly the high speed trains still use the historic alignments in major urban centers.
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Backshop 243129 VOLKER LANDWEHR the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways Right there!
243129 VOLKER LANDWEHR the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways
VOLKER LANDWEHR the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways
Right there!
I do not quote myself and ascribe it to Volker.
That statement is from is from the Washington Post.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1997/05/25/marshall-plan-changed-the-face-of-europe/645dece8-e549-4ad7-b9ae-a47b436d8fde/?utm_term=.4533f19b723c
Meanwhile do you wish to corroborate any of your previous assertions?
Backshop 243129 I do not quote myself I quote Volker quoting the Washington Post . The first quote, not the second. You're either obtuse or losing it. In either case, I think everyone should ignore you and let you live in your happy little world. Goodbye!
243129 I do not quote myself I quote Volker quoting the Washington Post .
I do not quote myself I quote Volker quoting the Washington Post .
The first quote, not the second. You're either obtuse or losing it. In either case, I think everyone should ignore you and let you live in your happy little world. Goodbye!
Please present the statement where you presume I am quoting myself.
You have made many assertions on this thread yet you provide no facts to backup said assertions.
Your denigrating comments about me did not go unnoticed.
BackshopWhy in your post two above this one do you quote yourself and ascribe it to Volker?
BackshopThe author put that in the article without any supporting facts. Just because something is in print doesn't mean that it is correct.
cx500 But to say they were a direct legacy of the Plan is tenuous at best. To suggest, as you did early on, that the devastation in Germany allowed the initial rebuilding of the railroad to have improved alignments is in error.
Please offer proof to the contrary.
cx500Any newspaper article should be read with an element of scepticism, particularly when the reporter is not particularly familiar with the area or detailed history.
So you are skeptical, in this instance, of the Washington Post reporter doing diligent research?
Why in your post two above this one do you quote yourself and ascribe it to Volker? The author put that in the article without any supporting facts. Just because something is in print doesn't mean that it is correct.
243129The article says that the Marshall Plan paved the way for high-tech (read high-speed) railways in Germany and the rest of Europe. Whether it was stated in 1990 or 2018 the meaning is still the same.
That is the same way I read it and nobody questioned this. But you use this one quoted sentence as proof for the following statement in your article: With nothing in the way, the Marshall Plan and SCAP — with an eye on the future — rebuilt the railway systems as straight as practicable.
And that your interpretation of the quote from the Washington Post doesn't say. It defines the described time frame, the 1990s, with modern prosperous cities and production of jet fighters. These two quotes have a completely different meaning. And again neither the German railway system nor most likely the Japanese cape gauge system were rebuilt with high speed in mind.
The Japanese system only most likely because it is based only on facts I know about the Shinkansen.
243129"Perhaps" tells me that you are not sure that it is incorrect. It is not and you have not presented any facts to the contrary.
Put the "perhaps" on the fact that the moderation doesn't allow edits. I'm sure that my German facts are correct and your assumptions in the above quote from your article are wrong.
I have provided a lot of fact, except the one article that doesn't fit?Regards, Volker
The Marshall Plan paved the way for the economies to recover reasonably quickly. As Volker said, with actual personal knowledge of the European experience, the immediate need was to get the railroads back in operation. That was done by the quickest means possible, namely by patching the damaged areas, so the existing network was replaced in kind. Perhaps there was some limited simplification of complex junctions. Even if adjacent urban areas were reduced to rubble, there would not have been the luxury of time to sort out ownership issues and develop long term concepts when the immediate need was to cobble together some sort of operational transportation network.
As a result of the Marshall Plan, decades later their economies had improved such that the high speed rail projects were possible. The North American economies also make it possible over here; instead the investments were made in highways. But to say they were a direct legacy of the Plan is tenuous at best. To suggest, as you did early on, that the devastation in Germany allowed the initial rebuilding of the railroad to have improved alignments is in error.
Any newspaper article should be read with an element of scepticism, particularly when the reporter is not particularly familiar with the area or detailed history.
leg·a·cy | \ˈle-gÉ™-sÄ“
(Entry 1 of 2)
1 : a gift by will especially of money or other personal property : bequest She left us a legacy of a million dollars.
2 : something transmitted by or received from an ancestor or predecessor or from the past the legacy of the ancient philosophers The war left a legacy of pain and suffering.
The article says that the Marshall Plan paved the way for high-tech (read high-speed) railways in Germany and the rest of Europe. Whether it was stated in 1990 or 2018 the meaning is still the same.
VOLKER LANDWEHRWhy is it so difficult to admit that one’s information were perhaps not correct?
It is not "difficult to admit that one’s information were perhaps not correct?"
"Perhaps" tells me that you are not sure that it is incorrect. It is not and you have not presented any facts to the contrary.
243129The article certainly does support my theory.
Backshop That article doesn't support your theory. The countries got back on their feet through the Marshall Plan (which no one disputes) and therefore could, in later years, rebuild their transportation infrastructure, but the Plan didn't rebuild them. PS-Every post on every internet forum morphs into something else. Since you are not the OP; you have no say in what gets discussed in it.
That article doesn't support your theory. The countries got back on their feet through the Marshall Plan (which no one disputes) and therefore could, in later years, rebuild their transportation infrastructure, but the Plan didn't rebuild them.
PS-Every post on every internet forum morphs into something else. Since you are not the OP; you have no say in what gets discussed in it.
The article certainly does support my theory. What it doesn't support, and which you show no proof of, is your theory/opinion. "The countries got back on their feet through the Marshall Plan (which no one disputes) and therefore could, in later years, rebuild their transportation infrastructure, but the Plan didn't rebuild them."
BackshopNobody ever said there weren't. Just that it didn't happen right after the war, and didn't have anything to do with the Marshall Plan.
You and others seem to focus on Germany exclusively. Europe and Japan were bombed in to rubble.
Meanwhile this discussion is about High-Speed on the NEC is it not?
243129 "In Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways," What was written in 1997 was in reference to the results of what took place in 1948-1951.
"In Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways,"
What was written in 1997 was in reference to the results of what took place in 1948-1951.
243129"In Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways," What was written in 1997 was in reference to the results of what took place in 1948-1951.
The quoted sentence from the washington Post's 1997 article is only a part of the sentence. Here is the complete one: But here in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, in prosperous, modern cities, in products from perfume to fighter jets.
I see how prosperous, modern cities and products from perfume to fighter jets fit into the 1990s, but 1948 to 1951?
I leave this to others to judge. I posted my opinion already.Regards, Volker
I looked over much of this thread. Most of Joe's contentions are simply that, his opinions, which are not supported by any citations with factual information, while he demands others "proove" theirs. The 1997 WAPO article, while a pretty good one on the Marshall plan (though with minimal citations other than figures on how much money each country received), gives the quoted statement about its legacy being high-tech railways and highways. The vague wording may mislead some into thinking the Marshall Plan was responsiblefor bulding HSRs and Autobahns in Germany. It does never sais that, of course.
So Mr. McMahon, what data supports your contention? Citations? Volker has given us a good deal of factual information. I even mentioned my own observations of various German rail lines made starting in 1968. All opinions that diasagrees with JM's were summarily dismissed by him, usually with very rude remarks.I believe the ultimate "proof" would be comparisons of German rail ROWs in urban areas from aerial photographs prior to the war, in 1945 and in 1954 after the Marshall Plan was concluded. But that project is beyond my capabilities or interest.Lacking that, it is very clear that the opinions of a German engineer, quite familiar with DB operations over an extensive period, carry a great deal more weight on an amateir forum than JM's contentions. He apparently has never even ridden on DB from 1947 to the present.
VOLKER LANDWEHRI don't try to proof the Washington Post article wrong. It describes the situation in 1997 and is correct for that time frame only.
Meanwhile back to why 'true' High-Speed Rail (HSR) is not feasibile on the Northeast Corridor (NEC) . It isn't. I have stated such in the attached article that charlie hebdo diligently searched for and produced.
243129 VOLKER LANDWEHR Regarding proof: We are now more than 70 years later. I tried to explain before that there is no proof left that I would have access to, only strong evidence. In my missive I referred to Europe and Japan. You chose to make it about Germany and have yet to prove my statement and the Washington Post article wrong.
VOLKER LANDWEHR Regarding proof: We are now more than 70 years later. I tried to explain before that there is no proof left that I would have access to, only strong evidence.
In my missive I referred to Europe and Japan. You chose to make it about Germany and have yet to prove my statement and the Washington Post article wrong.
I said it before I don't know enough about Japanese rail to discuss it. But you should consider that Japanese railways were cape gauge (narrow gauge) through WWII while Shinkansen was built on standards gauge in 1964. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinkansen
Of the approximately 17,000 miles Japanese rail net 13,800 miles were cape gauge in 2015. Shinkansen (high-speed), some suburban lines and some subways use 2980 miles of standard gauge track. The balance are additional gauges.
Normal speed trains still run on cape gauge.
Draw your own conclusions.
I don't try to proof the Washington Post article wrong. It describes the situation in 1997 and is correct for that time frame only.
To the statement in your article I said more than enough.
Believe what you like.Regards, Volker
SD70DudeWell that was an interesting reaction. Amazing what can happen when you don't pay attention to a thread for a few days! I'm just impressed that one of our resident Southerners instantly knew what a Ski-Doo is! Bombardier has become quite the controversial topic in Canada, especially out west, due to the bailouts and government loans they have received.
I'm just impressed that one of our resident Southerners instantly knew what a Ski-Doo is!
Bombardier has become quite the controversial topic in Canada, especially out west, due to the bailouts and government loans they have received.
Been using Ski-Doo engines for racing since 1997 along with Polaris drive clutch and Artic-Cat driven clutch.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Well that was an interesting reaction. Amazing what can happen when you don't pay attention to a thread for a few days!
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
VOLKER LANDWEHRRegarding proof: We are now more than 70 years later. I tried to explain before that there is no proof left that I would have access to, only strong evidence.
243129 VOLKER LANDWEHR In your post you write: in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways, That is a quote from the Washington Post. I cannot contradict something I never said. Had you paid attention to my original post to you on that subject we would not be having this 'discussion' on something that did not happen.
VOLKER LANDWEHR In your post you write: in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways,
That is a quote from the Washington Post. I cannot contradict something I never said. Had you paid attention to my original post to you on that subject we would not be having this 'discussion' on something that did not happen.
I know that it is a quote from the Washington Post article.
But you used it in an emphasized form to rebut me. So it is your argument as well.
Here the context from your Oct. 4th post:
VOLKER LANDWEHR So once again, the railway was rebuilt on the old alignment with the old parameters wherever possible. Changes were not made for higher speeds.
in Europe, the legacy of the Marshall Plan is visible for all to see: in high-tech railways and highways,
In my opinion the above quote and the quote from your article have a different meaning, keeping in mind the article was wriiten in 1997. Quote from article:Comparison to the European and Japanese railway systems cannot be made. Europe and Japan were bombed into rubble as a result of World War II. With nothing in the way, the Marshall Plan and SCAP — with an eye on the future — rebuilt the railway systems as straight as practicable.
But perhaps that is because of my limited language knowledge.
Regarding proof: We are now more than 70 years later. I tried to explain before that there is no proof left that I would have access to, only strong evidence.
If that is not good enough for you, OK. Believe as you wish.Regards, Volker
....now I get Polaris ads all over the place, downs the sides, along the top, wherever I go. Lightning fast. Robots know my every move even up here in no where and near isolation.
I'm a Polaris guy myself.
The point is Bombardier is a Canadian Company which is in Canada of all things ,Quebec specifically, and snow is an everyday part of life for many months of the year so any company manufacturing anything has to be aware of this and design accordingly. Besides their name and heritage screams winter. Damned embarrassing.
The point being that the engineer's assertion was that the train IS averse to snow, and the response being that the manufacturers MAKE Ski-Doos.
Had the grammar been different it would indeed have been an ironic observation (for some definitions of 'ironic'; see discussions of the Alanis song for the firehose drink).
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