Volker is right in there with Congress in thinking that trains that operate between end points have only a passenger load that operates between those same end points.
The utility of Amtrak's LD trains has a lot of loading between intermediate points. There would be more utility were there two trains daily between the OD pairs roughly 12 hours apart, so that communities that are served in the middle of the night by one train could be served in the middle of the day by the other; the bigger question is if there would be sufficient passenger loads to support both trains.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
VOLKER LANDWEHR Not ignorance, just a different opinion.
Not ignorance, just a different opinion.
I disagree.
VOLKER LANDWEHR There are lots of people living between the Empire Builder's and California Zephyr's routes. They have to get along without train service and it seems to work. The Empire Builder might be convenient but necessary? Than others would need trains too.
There are lots of people living between the Empire Builder's and California Zephyr's routes. They have to get along without train service and it seems to work. The Empire Builder might be convenient but necessary? Than others would need trains too.
That's the claim by many about health care in the U.S., but does it make any sense? People get by, don't they? Just because something doesn't exist, doesn't mean it shouldn't. There are historical reasons that long distance passenger service in the U.S. is so skeletal. I also don't agree that we must, as a nation, always default to the most uncomfortable way of travel (highway or plane).
VOLKER LANDWEHR When the train is necessary, there are better solutions than LD trains with their in some places more than inconvenient departure and arrival times, the impossibility to get somewhere and back in the same day.
When the train is necessary, there are better solutions than LD trains with their in some places more than inconvenient departure and arrival times, the impossibility to get somewhere and back in the same day.
With regard to the Empire Builder, the average trip is over 700 miles, so the average traveler has no such expectation because the 700 mile trip takes almost half the day as it is. Instead of making such false statements, I urge you to access the RPA website that includes ridership data for every train and every station. The solution to get better train times is to run a second train. This could be done with very little incremental cost, but would increase revenue on the route overall by increasing travel options, especially to those communities served in the middle of the night.
VOLKER LANDWEHRWhen the Empire Builder was inaugurated in 1929 there was no other comfortable mode of transportation to connect Chicago with the Pacific Northwest. Today by air is much faster, so passengers going the whole way are most likely tourists. Local people would be better served with different corridors and more frequent service. But then you are getting in conflict with freight railroads.
But most of the people don't go the whole way, so you are mistaken (again, 716 miles is the average trip....the "whole way" is over 2,000). Trains like the Empire Builder serve many communities with poor or no air service. That most passengers traveling "the whole way are most likely tourists" I'm sure is something you can't prove. But it sounds like tourism shouldn't be considered as a valid reason to have transportation. Not the case. Again, check the ridership data for the train before making erroneous statements.
VOLKER LANDWEHRTo get back to the topic: I find it exaggerated to complain that a once daily train was cancelled for few days. The times and with your legal landscape has changed. With todays granted damages, material and immaterial, I understand the decision.
Your comments lead me to believe you lack the hands-on, historical and institutional knowledge to understand why people along the route and elsewhere are displeased with the decision to cancel the service.
VOLKER LANDWEHRGranted damages in Germany are only a fracture of those in the USA, but it seems better to avoidany. As I said before DB shut down the whole system with approx. 25,000 passenger trains daily three times in 2017 affecting 11.9 people daily.
11.9 people? Never mind - It doesn't matter. Your constant references to Germany only show you don't understand life along routes like the Empire Builder. It's apples and oranges. Like the fact at Montana and Germany are about the same size (Montana is a bit bigger), but Germany has 82 times the population. Therefore any comparisons in this topic are moot.
VOLKER LANDWEHRWere weren't lucky as the trains are needed for our daily chores. Foresight is better than hindsight.
And the Empire Builder is needed for "daily chores" for people along its route, too - maybe not in the same way, but you're in no position to judge otherwise (unless you are a closeted resident along the Empire Builder route and/or a U.S. taxpayer). Foresight is good. Many in the United States understand that keeping the long distance network intact is the only chance to build on it; it's not like in Europe where the government has a heavy hand in rail transportation policy. In the U.S., once a route is gone, it's exponentially difficult to revive it since it usually operates on private infrastructure. Hindsight, or remembering history, is also important. It helps us understand the taxation of railroads and vast subsidies in creating the highway and airline networks over time, rather than just making statements about Amtrak service and labeling it "inadequate" based on the way things are without historical reference.
Mark Meyer
VerMontanan Those who scoff at the utility of once daily service in areas like this only display their ignorance.
When the Empire Builder was inaugurated in 1929 there was no other comfortable mode of transportation to connect Chicago with the Pacific Northwest.
Today by air is much faster, so passengers going the whole way are most likely tourists. Local people would be better served with different corridors and more frequent service. But then you are getting in conflict with freight railroads.
To get back to the topic: I find it exaggerated to complain that a once daily train was cancelled for few days. The times and with your legal landscape has changed. With todays granted damages, material and immaterial, I understand the decision.
Granted damages in Germany are only a fracture of those in the USA, but it seems better to avoidany. As I said before DB shut down the whole system with approx. 25,000 passenger trains daily three times in 2017 affecting 11.9 people daily. Were weren't lucky as the trains are needed for our daily chores. Foresight is better than hindsight.Regards, Volker
I can't speak for all communities served by Amtrak long distance trains, but I can say without fear of contradiction that the BBC "Ghost Train" reference has zero relevance when speaking about the communities along the Empire Builder route. In addition to the "although the general consensus is that it’s when a service is so infrequent, the train becomes effectively useless" quote that is completely inapplicable, there is this quote from the article, "Perhaps most important of all, the term ghost train implies something that only a special few know exists." Go to any community along the Empire Builder route in Northern Montana and North Dakota and I would challenge you to find a resident who either hasn't ridden the train or doesn't know the approximate departure time. When I lived in the Seattle area and my mother was in the nursing home in Cut Bank, Montana, I would take the train to see her - a godsend in the winter as opposed to driving over five mountain passes with no other available public transport. I would usually go immediately from the station to the nursing home, and I when I would inevitably get comments from the staff like, "oh yes, you were 15 minutes late this morning, or you got here on time." They couldn't see the train, but whistle on Amtrak locomotives was different those on freight units - another piece of common knowledge about railroading along this route - and they all knew when the train was supposed to come through. Those who scoff at the utility of once daily service in areas like this only display their ignorance.
VOLKER LANDWEHR VerMontanan You need a road trip. To Northern Montana. In the winter. I'd never take an Amtrak LD train. I get already impationt when a DB ICE train is 20 minutes late and I miss my connection because there is only 8 minutes transfer time. But luckily the next connection comes within one hour. I also said in special corridors there might be use for locals. In the UK those once daily trains are called ghost trains. BBC explanation:There is no single definition of what constitutes a ghost train, although the general consensus is that it’s when a service is so infrequent, the train becomes effectively useless. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150723-why-britain-has-secret-ghost-trainsRegards, Volker
VerMontanan You need a road trip. To Northern Montana. In the winter.
I'd never take an Amtrak LD train. I get already impationt when a DB ICE train is 20 minutes late and I miss my connection because there is only 8 minutes transfer time. But luckily the next connection comes within one hour.
I also said in special corridors there might be use for locals.
In the UK those once daily trains are called ghost trains. BBC explanation:There is no single definition of what constitutes a ghost train, although the general consensus is that it’s when a service is so infrequent, the train becomes effectively useless. http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150723-why-britain-has-secret-ghost-trainsRegards, Volker
Then Amtrak, outside of several corridor operations, is effectively a ghost railroad.
VerMontananYou need a road trip. To Northern Montana. In the winter.
Deggesty the problem was the possibility that high winds might topple the train.
Sounds like a good argument for returning to the beautiful single-level streamliners of yesteryear. I never did care for the looks of those two-story hulks. Yeah, I know it ain't gon' happen.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
VOLKER LANDWEHR On the other hand I see Amtrak LD trains more as tourist trains.
On the other hand I see Amtrak LD trains more as tourist trains.
You need a road trip. To Northern Montana. In the winter.
http://www.cutbankpioneerpress.com/cut_bank_pioneer_press/news/article_cfb9a5ae-616c-59c4-bc63-3360efe9a312.html
http://dailyreporter.com/2017/07/05/view-from-around-the-state-save-the-amtrak-empire-builder-from-the-knife/
http://helenair.com/news/state-and-regional/residents-struggle-to-save-hi-line-s-lifeline/article_ac7d508a-3dce-5a69-9593-f3e5b09c629f.html
On a freight you have two persons, conductor and engineer, who do it for a living. On an Amtrak train there are perhaps 200 passengers who paid for the trip, and that makes a huge difference.
On the other hand I see Amtrak LD trains more as tourist trains. They might be usefull in some corridors for local people but delays makes using the almost unpredictable.Regards, Volker
As to the CZ rescue, there was nothing on the track to inhibit travel; the problem was the possibility that high winds might topple the train. Freights were running past, in both directions. The dispatcher, in his discretion forbade the movement of the Superliner.
Johnny
blue streak 1 We sort of look at Amtrak weather cancellations as un necessary. After a full review of reports including MSP light rail unable to operate due to multi stalled vehicles unable to clear the light rail tracks. Probably a very good idea that Amtrak cancelled, It appears that any malfunction of a Builder would not have had any rescue possible.
We sort of look at Amtrak weather cancellations as un necessary. After a full review of reports including MSP light rail unable to operate due to multi stalled vehicles unable to clear the light rail tracks. Probably a very good idea that Amtrak cancelled, It appears that any malfunction of a Builder would not have had any rescue possible.
The storm also did damage on the Wisconsin side, to the ex-carferry Badger pier in Manitowoc.
https://www.htrnews.com/story/news/2018/04/16/manitowoc-dock-s-s-badger-sustains-damage-spring-storm/521610002/
mudchickenYou didn't think Rentzenburger was going to keep a crew van between the ditches on US-34 out there across the flat half of Colorado ? Mischief
They have enough trouble doing that in sunny and 80 degree weather.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
So much for trains being all weather service.
MidlandMikeEven Lake Michigan had a seiche causing an 8 foot storm surge.
For those unfamiliar with the term, here's an introduction...
Just as a meteorological nit-pick, "storm surge" is usually associated with reduced air pressure under a large storm like a hurricane, whereas as I understand the Lake Michigan situation the higher level was the result of fetch.
You didn't think Rentzenburger was going to keep a crew van between the ditches on US-34 out there across the flat half of Colorado ?
Imagine the light engine hop dog-caught something between McCook and Brush after that.
DeggestyMany passengers had to change their travel plans because they missed connections in various places. Those with whom I talked did not seem angry.
I suspect surviving passengers on the Titanic may have had to change their continuing travel plan upon arrival in New York to.
Yes, 21.5 inches in Appleton with barreling winds. 29 inches 10 miles north. At Manitowoc, Lake Michigan Ferry road to Ferry ramp washed out by pounding surf.
VerMontanan, glad to give you today's laugh.
Yes I live in the lake-effect snow belt of Northern Michigan. During my 35 year career I drove around the oil field roads in all sorts of snow and morass, and had to dig my self out of situations. However, I am retired now, and if I traveled on the Empire Builder in winter, I would not want to have to pack a snowmobile suit to meet my "ride" at the station.
The storm was of historic proportions. I don't know what it was like on the CP part of Wisconsin, but Green Bay had its second deepest amount of snow (23+") in history. Northern Michigan had some spots with 24". My area only had a few inches of sleet, which 50 mph gusts caused to drift. State Police advised only emergency travel. Even Lake Michigan had a seiche causing an 8 foot storm surge.
My experience with signal problems was on the "Canadian" when it was still routed on the CP. Rain had knocked them out, and we traveled very s-l-o-w.
I would guess that Amtrak didn't want to put its passengers in any potential danger or discomfort that would have required heroic efforts to safely resolve.
Electroliner 1935 Deggesty Yes. High winds in western Nebraska caused the dispatcher to stop the train until the winds were abated. Did you experience any rocking of the train from the winds? Did the four unit BNSF return to Denver with the train? And you got an extra meal(s) for your fare. I presume the passengers were in a good mood.
Deggesty Yes. High winds in western Nebraska caused the dispatcher to stop the train until the winds were abated.
Did you experience any rocking of the train from the winds? Did the four unit BNSF return to Denver with the train?
And you got an extra meal(s) for your fare. I presume the passengers were in a good mood.
I did get breakfast this morning on board. I have the impression that coach passengers had to pay for additional meals.
The light engine, so far as I know, followed us in.
Many passengers had to change their travel plans because they missed connections in various places. Those with whom I talked did not seem angry.
DeggestyYes. High winds in western Nebraska caused the dispatcher to stop the train until the winds were abated.
Electroliner 1935 Don't know whether Weather (pun intended) stabbed the California Zepher but it lost 12 hours in Western Nebraska, Eastern Colorado this morning. 06 HLD Holdrege, NE 2:34A 4:09A4:11A Arrived 1 hour 35 minutes late.Departed 1 hour 37 minutes late. Station History 783 MCK McCook, NE CT 3:43A 6:16A6:22A Arrived 2 hours 33 minutes late.Departed 2 hours 39 minutes late. Station History 960 FMG Fort Morgan, CO MT 5:05A 5:04P5:12P Arrived 11 hours 59 minutes late.Departed 12 hours 7 minutes late. Station History 1038 DEN Denver, COUnion Station ArDp 7:15A8:05A 6:48P7:50P Arrived 11 hours 33 minutes late.Departed 11 hours 45 minutes late. Anyone got any info?
Don't know whether Weather (pun intended) stabbed the California Zepher but it lost 12 hours in Western Nebraska, Eastern Colorado this morning.
Anyone got any info?
We arrived in Salt Lake City 12:10 late this morning.
CMStPnP None of the station stops above can house or support an average Empire Builder train population, waiting rooms much too small and only two public restrooms. As for eateries in those small towns open with enough staff during a blizzard in Wisconsin that can support a stalled Empire Builder.......good luck with that one.
None of the station stops above can house or support an average Empire Builder train population, waiting rooms much too small and only two public restrooms. As for eateries in those small towns open with enough staff during a blizzard in Wisconsin that can support a stalled Empire Builder.......good luck with that one.
True. However, what you describe would require a series of bizarre coincidences that need to happen simultaneously, i.e., the train would not be able to proceed; the locomotives would all need to have run out of fuel and died; and the storm so severe that any type of emergency travel to or from the station could not be made, even by a machine built to operate in snow. Within the realm of possibility, but statistically unlikely.
As I stated earlier, living in Montana for years, I never experienced where travel could not be possible in some form within a community. When, in the past, Amtrak passengers have had to be taken off the train (due to derailment, for instance), school buses were used to move people to a local shelter. Indeed, you can always dream up a scenario where the absolute worst can happen, but the Empire Builder's reputation as all-weather transport is based on actual operational history, not "what-if"s.
CMStPnP So your argument is Superliners were built with illusionary retention toilets all along and Amtrak kept that a secret from the traveling public.
So your argument is Superliners were built with illusionary retention toilets all along and Amtrak kept that a secret from the traveling public.
Huh?
CMStPnP Further, your argument is that BN and later BNSF did not remodel or pull out any past passenger servicing facility no longer used by Amtrak on a regular basis in the time period stretching from 1979 to the current period.
Further, your argument is that BN and later BNSF did not remodel or pull out any past passenger servicing facility no longer used by Amtrak on a regular basis in the time period stretching from 1979 to the current period.
For the most part, correct. Obviously, there are going to be adjustments in infrastructure over a 39 year period, equally obvious is that current infastructure is sufficient, including that added by Amtrak.
CMStPnP Further your argument is that BN followed by BNSF did not cut back on track capacity or spinoffs such as maybe Montana Rail Link since 1979 that might make it less susceptible to heavy snow winter events.
Further your argument is that BN followed by BNSF did not cut back on track capacity or spinoffs such as maybe Montana Rail Link since 1979 that might make it less susceptible to heavy snow winter events.
Again, not my argument at all. But indeed BN/BNSF has added a lot of capacity on the route since 1979. The improvements are too numerous to mention here, but they include that St. Paul to Williston is effectively a double track (2 MT CTC) railroad, addition main tracks added in numerous locations in Montana, Idaho, and Washington, sidings were extended, and crossovers and yard tracks added. I don't know what Montana Rail Link has to do with the Empire Builder, but it has also added infrastructure in numerous locations on its railroad and has greater capacity than ever.
CMStPnPAnd last but not least your arguing that Freight Train length and Feright Traffic has not drammatically increased on the Empire Builder Line. All have to be presumptions to the underlying argument that not much of anything has changed since October 1979. I find that a very strange arguing position that the host railroad remained frozen in time from 1979 until today.
Again, not my argument at all, just something you chose to misinterpret. I never once stated that the railroad was "frozen in time." Rather, the point was that the same equipment has been running on the same route for nearly 40 years dependably. That is a fact.
CMStPnPI wonder what BNSF Management thinks of your theory?
No, it's your theory, because I said no such thing. But I know my knowledge and insight was valued by others in management at BNSF during my 22 years working at BNSF's Network Operations Center. What's your hands-on experience with the Empire Builder, by the way?
VOLKER LANDWEHRI don’t understand the excitement that the Empire Builder was cancelled, one train that runs once daily.
Something, something, Anderson, something, something, private car, something, something.
My guess is he has never been on an Amtrak Long Distance train that skipped a service stop or was more than 6 hours late. Not a 100% enjoyable place to be. I would not force a paying passenger to endure that discomfort at their financial risk of not doing so meant they lost the price of their tickets.
VerMontananAgain it depends. With regard towns like Red Wing, Winona, La Crosse, Tomah, and Wisconsin Dells, the stations (all with heated waiting areas)
VerMontananBullshit. The Empire Builder has been operating with the same equipment (Superliners) since October of 1979 with basically the same servicing opportunities since 1971, and was/is the only train on most of its route for the past 47 years. Winter, being the seasonal event that it is, happens every year, often with a great degree of severity along the Empire Builder route. Using your logic, the Empire Builder should not run for six months of the year, because between the cold of the prairies, the snow of the mountains, and the mudslide threat along the coast, there's always something at COULD happen along the way. Yet while there have been isolated incidents during the winter, for the most part the train has fulfilled its role as all-weather transportation. No. "Chicken Little" railroading is not the way to go, and is not what is expected along the Empire Builder route, a route where people have always historically chosen the train when other forms of transportation (if there are any) are not available due to weather.
Oh really? So your argument is Superliners were built with illusionary retention toilets all along and Amtrak kept that a secret from the traveling public. Further, your argument is that BN and later BNSF did not remodel or pull out any past passenger servicing facility no longer used by Amtrak on a regular basis in the time period stretching from 1979 to the current period. Further your argument is that BN followed by BNSF did not cut back on track capacity or spinoffs such as maybe Montana Rail Link since 1979 that might make it less susceptible to heavy snow winter events. And last but not least your arguing that Freight Train length and Feright Traffic has not drammatically increased on the Empire Builder Line. All have to be presumptions to the underlying argument that not much of anything has changed since October 1979.
I find that a very strange arguing position that the host railroad remained frozen in time from 1979 until today. I wonder what BNSF Management thinks of your theory? For that matter Amtrak management?
Amtrak management made the correct decision, most especially given the recent proclivities of Congress to hold air passenger carriers responsible for significant passenger discomfort during journeys that are delayed or impacted by weather (which would have spread to ocean cruise lines by now if they were American flagged). I don't think we need additional Congressional rules on this and I don't think Amtrak should risk them.
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