Ah, excellent example. Perhaps American was cancelling in part because they considered the weather was too risky, either then or earlier in the day which disrupted the network. Southwest Airlines presumably had a different opinion. You felt running a possibly increased risk was justified in order to get home closer to the original schedule, rather than accepting that American's opinion was the right one. The difference is that you were dealing with factors with which you had personal experience and could make an informed judgement.
BNSF did not see any measurable risk for running Amtrak through the area of the storm, and were expecting to accommodate it. They backed up their view by continuing to run their own traffic just as normal (like Southwest?). And BNSF is extremely risk-averse. In the Seattle area there are some slide prone areas, and whenever one happens, even a minor one, they refuse to handle any occupied passenger train for 48 hours through that area.
cx500I notice that you are very reluctant to tolerate more than a couple of hours of delay, presumably paying extra to reticket on another airline. Yet apparently it is OK for an Amtrak passenger travelling to and/or from places without the luxury of competing airlines to be delayed by a day or more, simply because of remote nervous Nellies in management.
Kind of a faulty comparison there because the big airlines (of course one could also point out it is only the unionized carriers) also have routine weather delays that delay a traveler one day or longer. The last attempt by American to stick me in Kansas City due to a hail storm at DFW airport would have lasted 2 full days before I could get a flight out.
So it depends on airline of course not always geography.
After 4 hours of waiting and after the second American flight cancellation (which would have pushed me into day #2)........I just called Southwest Airlines and I was out of there. I left my employer to haggle with American over the ticket refund because clearly this was American Airlines and not the weather (which they continued to blame) especially since a competing airline was operating the same route without issues just a few hours after the hail storm. Coincidently the competing airline (Southwest) was non-Union and for some strange reason has a faster wheels-up to wheels-down time on the Dallas to KC route despite both airlines flying 737's.....go figure. And the baggage is usually out on the baggage conveyor by the time I get from the plane to baggage claim (little to no wait there).
If Southwest responded that they could not fly me back until day #2, I would have rented a car and drove as Kansas City to Dallas is drivable in shorter timeframe.
I see a lot of insulting going on in this thread. Please keep the discussion to the topic, not your opinion of the other posters.
CMStPnPI don't choose to live in Montana or Alaska and most Empire Builder travelers do not live in Montana. As I indicated earlier that might be a frame of reference that is driving the difference of opinion here.
Indeed that is the case. For instance I don't choose to live on the Gulf Coast, so I have no experience with the storms there. Without first hand experience I defer to the knowledge of those who live in the area. Their opinion is valid; mine less so.
A winter storm may be scary in the many parts of the continent that rarely see on, but that is not the northern interior of the USA and Canada who take them in stride. Sometimes the highways may get closed but that is often mostly to save incompetent drivers from themselves. Meanwhile rail traffic continues to roll on through, as would Amtrak.
I notice that you are very reluctant to tolerate more than a couple of hours of delay, presumably paying extra to reticket on another airline. Yet apparently it is OK for an Amtrak passenger travelling to and/or from places without the luxury of competing airlines to be delayed by a day or more, simply because of remote nervous Nellies in management.
CMStPnP charlie hebdo I can report, however, that the sanitary conditions on DB (and most other service operators in Germany) today are vastly improved over thoe 30+ years ago. I'll bet you can until I pay for that next trip and find out differently. Seriously though I returned close to the year 2000 (forget the exact year), to find the once immaculate DB trains sprayed with graffitti, even the new Italian High Speed Train between Rome and Florence had some idiot that sprayed paint on it. I'll give you an C at effort though at trying to convince.
charlie hebdo I can report, however, that the sanitary conditions on DB (and most other service operators in Germany) today are vastly improved over thoe 30+ years ago.
I'll bet you can until I pay for that next trip and find out differently. Seriously though I returned close to the year 2000 (forget the exact year), to find the once immaculate DB trains sprayed with graffitti, even the new Italian High Speed Train between Rome and Florence had some idiot that sprayed paint on it.
I'll give you an C at effort though at trying to convince.
You have no idea how many DB trains I have ridden since you rode once in 2000 (maybe 80-112?). Your posting about this subject is indicative of an ignorant person who tries to bluff his way towards persuading others he is an expert. Obviously many others on even this thread share a similar opinion of the 'sandwich man.'
cx500I am perplexed. You are not prepared to accept a possible delayed arrival by a number of hours safely seated in a warm train, but are quite prepared to accept a delay of several days waiting in a hotel in a strange city.
Well, as long as the HEP keeps working, the toilets don't get filled, food doesn't run out.
I think I'd take my chances in a hotel any day.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
cx500BNSF continued to run its regular freight trains, and was expecting to handle Amtrak with no problem. I hope, but doubt it happened, that Amtrak compensated the passengers that had their travel plans disrupted by the cancellations.
I don't choose to live in Montana or Alaska and most Empire Builder travelers do not live in Montana. As I indicated earlier that might be a frame of reference that is driving the difference of opinion here. So should the entire Amtrak ridership pay a price because someone choose to live in Montana and now with a moderate to heavy snow storm the entire state is closed for business? I don't think that is fair.
I have never spent days in a hotel due to a weather delay, the most I ever had to deal with was 6-8 hours delay via the airlines. Because I cancel my ticket and go with another carrier if it looks like the delay will be longer. Typically Southwest is the best for recovering / handling weather delays in this country and they are the default I go to when American, United or Delta falls apart and their CSR's can't explain when Humpty Dumpty will be put back together again. In my experience, Southwest usually recovers their network in 1/3 to 1/4 the time it takes American or Delta Airlines to do it. Then I call the offending airline which was clueless as to when they could have a free flight again and ask for my money back in a partial refund or future credit.
Amtrak paid for the hotels & meals of passengers when they were enroute to CUS on another Amtrak train and their connecting train was cancelled at CUS. So I am guessing they compensate to an extent at least on what they refer to as a guaranteed connection.
CMStPnPNow granted there are railfans on here that will accept 6 and 8 hour delays or the train crawling along at 20-30 mph.....thats their perogitive I guess. Not me though, I pay for a ticket and I expect decent service.
I am perplexed. You are not prepared to accept a possible delayed arrival by a number of hours safely seated in a warm train, but are quite prepared to accept a delay of several days waiting in a hotel in a strange city. Not everyone is retired and has that degree of flexibility. When I pay for a ticket I expect the carrier to make its best efforts to live up to its side of the deal, whether it be rail or air.
BNSF continued to run its regular freight trains, and was expecting to handle Amtrak with no problem. I hope, but doubt it happened, that Amtrak compensated the passengers that had their travel plans disrupted by the cancellations.
As we are all monday morning quarterbacking here I'll link to a summary of storm Xanto: https://weather.com/storms/winter/news/2018-04-12-winter-storm-xanto-forecast-rockies-plains-midwest
I expect that everybody sees his opinion supported y the link.Regards, Volker
VerMontananOverall, this post is easily rebutted for those with knowledge of contemporary railroad operations, but doing so is clearly not worth it. Your verbiage so describes the person you are.
Or you could just compare average service time (table turn around time) in your average bum truck Montana restaurant with service time in North Dallas and you would also have your answer. Time is valued differently depending on where you live and you will never convince me that time is valued for a Montana passenger in the same way as it is for most of the rest of the country.
When I ride Amtrak LD I want to arrive on time to make connections and I don't care what the weather is outside. During weather events I am somewhat more tolerant of delays and could probably accept an hour or two delay. More than that and someone in management made a bad decision to run the train in the first place.
Now granted there are railfans on here that will accept 6 and 8 hour delays or the train crawling along at 20-30 mph.....thats their perogitive I guess. Not me though, I pay for a ticket and I expect decent service. I must say that on almost every single Dallas to Chicago Texas Eagle trip I have taken I only had one bad travel experience last Christmas with the departure from the origin point (weather related). The train probably should have been cancelled then but someone made the decision to try and run it despite the massive problems at CUS that day.
The most the Texas Eagle has ever been late on the Dallas to Chicago Leg while I have been riding it has been 2 hours. Which given the schedule padding I think is not that big of feat. But if it sometimes runs with an 8 hour delay WITH schedule padding, I would begin to have doubts with Union Pacific and Amtrak both. Never has happened to me though. On that route UP has had issues with signals as well as traffic and still we get to Chicago within that acceptable window (for me) of at most 2 hours late. Empire Builder even though it has a better on time record generally than the Texas Eagle.........I know from living near the tracks when I was younger has been horribly late at times. Usually fault of BNSF but sometimes CP. It is just not late often and hence you have the nice on time stat BUT sometimes when it is late...........hate to be a passenger on that specific train.
cx500Those of us who actually understand, live and work in that northern type of climate are saying that any risk was grossly exaggerated, by several orders of magnitude. Cancelling the Empire Builder was a ridiculous over-reaction.
Baloney, bottom line is if the train is not cancelled a passenger with the ticket investment has two choices, take the train and the risk or lose out on the money. Cancelled train allows the passenger to travel another day and keeps them at their origin where they do not have to take the risk. Financially and risk wise, cancelling the train is more advantageous to the passenger.
Clearly this entire thread has revealed again a fundamental misunderstanding in the American railroad industry with just providing a service vs providing exemplary customer service. Just providing a service is OK for cattle, providing in the past excellent customer service is what most paying passengers will use in the future when it comes to repeat patronage.
Just providing a service in the area of contract switching for Amtrak led us to the current restrictive haulage of Private Car rules that we see being implemented. Had the same contract railroads provided exemplary customer service, would Amtrak still felt the need to implement those rules? Maybe, maybe not.
CMStPnPHousing passenger train passengers in a local gym represents failure not success here (I guess it is considered a success they are not dead but should the standard really be that low?).
You completely missed the point. Failure is GUARANTEED when the train is cancelled, as happened in this case. Success is running the train and providing the needed service in a timely manner. The risk of serious problems on the main line is slim to begin with. The risk increase to the physical well-being of the passengers due to weather conditions that are a regular, and routinely overcome, challenge to operations in the area is so negligible as to be laughable. And in that other 0.00001% of the time, solutions can be found, like the school gym for some off-train relaxation.
After all, airplanes still take off in New York even though lifeboats and cranes are not now stationed all along the rivers, so as to be prepared should another passenger jet make an unexpected splash-down. An unexpected problem, and local initiative pitched in.
Those of us who actually understand, live and work in that northern type of climate are saying that any risk was grossly exaggerated, by several orders of magnitude. Cancelling the Empire Builder was a ridiculous over-reaction.
CMStPnP That crap might be OK if your from Montana and used to those smells from the local pit toilet outhouse. However, among the population with newer indoor plumbing
That crap might be OK if your from Montana and used to those smells from the local pit toilet outhouse.
However, among the population with newer indoor plumbing
Overall, this post is easily rebutted for those with knowledge of contemporary railroad operations, but doing so is clearly not worth it. Your verbiage so describes the person you are.
Mark Meyer
VOLKER LANDWEHRAnd others have pointed out that going the safe way was the best Amtrak could do. I'm one of those. How do you know there was no risk? From the discussion here? Cancelling trains is not the end of the world. They are convenient, but not essential. The life goes on even without a train for a few days. A lot of communities in the the area between the routes of EB and CZ don't have the luxury of passenger trains. Perhaps Amtrak considered the existence of ambulance-chasers and possible high damages into the risk assessment in case something might happen. Yes, we take risks when walking and driving but we are responsible ourselfes for doing so. In passenger train travel Amtrak takes over the responsibility for us. There are different opions as we see. But they are moot as Amtrak decided to cancel the EB trains. It is monday morning quarterbacking. Regards, Volker
I interpreted it more as an operational decision vs safety, since they have a new CEO.
Why inconvinence passengers and potentially totally screw up your nationwide equipment availability because someone wants to prove they can move a train over the road? And this also kind of fits with the haulage of Private Cars and the new policy there. Fact is (via my own observation) some of the Class I and Terminal switching railroads were notoriously tardy and completely without care to Amtrak train schedules when it came to their contract to switch in and switch out private cars. So the new CEO of Amtrak saw that and now we have a new policy (agreed it was not the only reason but it was part of the reason stated).
Really it is not the point that the train could have moved over the road. The point was could it have done so and maintained a schedule as well as a minimum service point that passengers expect? I think the answer was, the risk was too high. Housing passenger train passengers in a local gym represents failure not success here (I guess it is considered a success they are not dead but should the standard really be that low?).
I am hoping the concern for the passenger continues with the new CEO in the area of timeliness and equipment availability. Again the main business of Amtrak is to haul passengers not cattle. One life form has slightly higher standards with transportation than the other.
Perhaps maybe some day with a little attention and some kicking of Class I railroads in the butt. We might see a Amtrak train poster with the caption "The On Time Machine". Maybe even soon we might see some of these po-dunk passenger stations dropped from the train schedules in favor of not stopping at all to speed up travel a little more?
Who knows, maybe even a 21st Century Amtrak not still stuck in how things were done back in the 1960's?
charlie hebdoI can report, however, that the sanitary conditions on DB (and most other service operators in Germany) today are vastly improved over thoe 30+ years ago.
cx500 But as several of us have tried to point out, the risk factor was virtually nonexistent.
And others have pointed out that going the safe way was the best Amtrak could do. I'm one of those.
How do you know there was no risk? From the discussion here?
Cancelling trains is not the end of the world. They are convenient, but not essential. The life goes on even without a train for a few days. A lot of communities in the the area between the routes of EB and CZ don't have the luxury of passenger trains.
Perhaps Amtrak considered the existence of ambulance-chasers and possible high damages into the risk assessment in case something might happen.
Yes, we take risks when walking and driving but we are responsible ourselfes for doing so. In passenger train travel Amtrak takes over the responsibility for us.
There are different opions as we see. But they are moot as Amtrak decided to cancel the EB trains. It is monday morning quarterbacking.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHRAmtrak choose the safe way.
Obviously that was the perception of some manager. But as several of us have tried to point out, the risk factor was virtually nonexistent. No danger to life, but perhaps some delay. Cancelling the train made the delay certain, and of greater duration. The bigger hazard for the passengers was the drive to and from the stations at each end of their trip.
Because we all regularly travel in automobiles, we understand and accept the risk, knowing how minimal it is. Any travel involves risk, even walking. The Amtrak decision was apparently made by somebody who has not lived in the northern plains and did not have any real understanding.
CMStPnP I've been on some German commutter trains in the 1980's that smelled of raw sewage or urine.......all is not always great in Germany.....all the time as noted previously. DB is not always post card perfect and has Amtrak similar problems at times as well. Most American Tourists are not in Germany long enough to see such issues, you have to really live there.
Your post was hilarious and accurate. I can report, however, that the sanitary conditions on DB (and most other service operators in Germany) today are vastly improved over thoe 30+ years ago.
cx500If the freight trains were still running, and apparently they were, the tracks would have been kept pretty much clear by the regular traffic. Therefore Amtrak would have been able to run with little problem.
It was a risk assessmenet both BNSF and Amtrak had to make. Carrying completely different "loads" and using different equipment the results can differ accordingly. Amtrak choose the safe way.
cx500I will also note that cancelling the train will have impacted the travel plans of a number of passengers whose trip did not include the area of the storm.
That is a risk you take when you use an Amtrak LD train. Because of their unpredictable on-time performance you need to assume you might have to adjust your traveling plans even when the train runs.
That the concerned people weren't lucky I understand. But better this way than something happend to the train.Regards, Volker
P.S.: @CMStPnP: you are right about Germany. All that glistens is not gold. But al in all it is a very nice country.
If the freight trains were still running, and apparently they were, the tracks would have been kept pretty much clear by the regular traffic. Therefore Amtrak would have been able to run with little problem. The major cause of winter delay to passenger trains in the past was due to the steam lines freezing in bitter cold (-20F and below). Conversion to head-end power mostly solved that problem.
Plow trains are needed mostly to reopen branch lines where snow has built up in the day or more between trains. And even then, often the plow was to make it feasible for the track patrol to get through on their motorcar or hi-rail; the train could bust through most drifts.
One poster suggested the inability of a small town not being able to accommodate a whole train load was a major risk. (I will pass over the fact that such a need is quite unlikely.) In more remote areas the small towns are very good at improvising in emergencies. The local school, or in a bigger center the sports facility, can provide shelter. The citizens may be more familiar with the concept of helping neighbours, whether from next door or new faces from a stopped train. Field, B.C., did just that when VIA's Canadian, then still running on the CPR route, was halted by track blockages in both directions. I'm sure the villages and towns in Montana and North Dakota would have done much the same.
In the parts of the continent where blizzards are a regular fact of winter weather, procedures have been developed to cope successfully. Unlike planes, trains do not have to be sprayed with de-icing fluid before departure, and are not likely to skid sideways on the rails even when snow is over the railhead. What may cause the delays certain folks see as insuperable are incidents such as derailments blocking the tracks, and they can and do happen at all times of the year.
I will also note that cancelling the train will have impacted the travel plans of a number of passengers whose trip did not include the area of the storm.
John
MidlandMike VerMontanan, glad to give you today's laugh. Yes I live in the lake-effect snow belt of Northern Michigan. During my 35 year career I drove around the oil field roads in all sorts of snow and morass, and had to dig my self out of situations. However, I am retired now, and if I traveled on the Empire Builder in winter, I would not want to have to pack a snowmobile suit to meet my "ride" at the station. The storm was of historic proportions. I don't know what it was like on the CP part of Wisconsin, but Green Bay had its second deepest amount of snow (23+") in history. Northern Michigan had some spots with 24". My area only had a few inches of sleet, which 50 mph gusts caused to drift. State Police advised only emergency travel. Even Lake Michigan had a seiche causing an 8 foot storm surge. My experience with signal problems was on the "Canadian" when it was still routed on the CP. Rain had knocked them out, and we traveled very s-l-o-w. I would guess that Amtrak didn't want to put its passengers in any potential danger or discomfort that would have required heroic efforts to safely resolve.
VerMontanan, glad to give you today's laugh.
Yes I live in the lake-effect snow belt of Northern Michigan. During my 35 year career I drove around the oil field roads in all sorts of snow and morass, and had to dig my self out of situations. However, I am retired now, and if I traveled on the Empire Builder in winter, I would not want to have to pack a snowmobile suit to meet my "ride" at the station.
The storm was of historic proportions. I don't know what it was like on the CP part of Wisconsin, but Green Bay had its second deepest amount of snow (23+") in history. Northern Michigan had some spots with 24". My area only had a few inches of sleet, which 50 mph gusts caused to drift. State Police advised only emergency travel. Even Lake Michigan had a seiche causing an 8 foot storm surge.
My experience with signal problems was on the "Canadian" when it was still routed on the CP. Rain had knocked them out, and we traveled very s-l-o-w.
I would guess that Amtrak didn't want to put its passengers in any potential danger or discomfort that would have required heroic efforts to safely resolve.
Landwehr is closer to the truth than the guy from Montana who despite his past RRing background is largely clueless about Amtrak LD trains when they are delayed or need to skip a service stop for whatever reason.
I have ridden the Empire Builder many times from 1971 onwards though Wisconsin and parts of MN west of St. Paul. Back before CP upgraded the signalling system the train would need to slow to a crawl due to fault signals in heavy rain along the then Milwaukee Road. I remember that Empire Builder train ride from hell because some of the Passenger Cars had power issues because they operated at slow speed for so long or loose cables ("the so called beautiful single level cars from the 40's and 50's"). I remember the Vista Dome being quite steamy on that trip at the height of Summer because the A/C didn't work. I have ridden the Builder also during blinding snow storms.......again train speed slowed significantly because the engineer cannot see the signals at a safe distance.
Also, unfortunate to his argument, the Empire Builder is not an all Coach Train, it has a Dining Car and Sleeping Cars and a onboard crew. Try riding in a Sleeping Car with an overfull rentention toilet system, then cut back your options in the Dining car to maybe one or two fast food items. That crap might be OK if your from Montana and used to those smells from the local pit toilet outhouse.
However, among the population with newer indoor plumbing....I don't think it goes very far. I think most traveling passengers or the local health authorities would start to have an issue with sewage fumes...........I could be wrong though. I've been on some German commutter trains in the 1980's that smelled of raw sewage or urine.......all is not always great in Germany.....all the time as noted previously. DB is not always post card perfect and has Amtrak similar problems at times as well. Most American Tourists are not in Germany long enough to see such issues, you have to really live there.
Anyhoo, my two cents on the argument. Cancelling the train was the right thing to do passenger trains haul people not cattle. Call a waaaa-bul-ance for the handful of people in Montana that were upset. Problem solved. :)
VerMontananThe health care comparison is not apples and oranges. I agree that everyone should have health care, but you missed my point which is that in the United States not everyone thinks so. And therefore you don't understand the mindset in the U.S. That was my point.
Sorry, I understood your comparison differently. The struggle to implemented health care in the USA was widely discussed in German media as well as the attemps of the acting POTUS to turn back the wheel. You are right we do not understand the reasoning behind the resistance to implement health care as we have a health care law since the mid 1880s but we have realized it.
VerMontananI completely understand that you don't understand.
I do understand, just not why to complain about three cancelled trains.
You have your opinion, I have mine. That happens all the time in discussions.Regards, Volker
The health care comparison is not apples and oranges. I agree that everyone should have health care, but you missed my point which is that in the United States not everyone thinks so. And therefore you don't understand the mindset in the U.S. That was my point.
I completely understand that you don't understand. Just realize my opinion is only based in living in Northern Montana, using the Empire Builder many times and almost never as a tourist, knowing the people who use the train and why, and working on the operating side of the railroad industry for 40 years, including much of including the Empire Builder route. That's why I at least believe I have standing for my opinion.
BaltACDVolker is right in there with Congress in thinking that trains that operate between end points have only a passenger load that operates between those same end points.
That is not what I meant. I said those going from end to end are mostly tourists. I didn't say all are going this way.
BaltACDThe utility of Amtrak's LD trains has a lot of loading between intermediate points. There would be more utility were there two trains daily between the OD pairs roughly 12 hours apart, so that communities that are served in the middle of the night by one train could be served in the middle of the day by the other; the bigger question is if there would be sufficient passenger loads to support both trains.
We agree that one train daily leaves out complete areas out of short distance travel. I'm not sure that a second train will help. Might be to optimize the schedule the layover time have extended at the expense of more equipment. Or you need a few additional local trains at more convenient departure times.Regards, Volker
@VerMontanan: First of all, I'm not against passenger trains. I grew up with them and use them as often as possible. But I think Amtrak's LD trains are not economical and in some areas almost useless for short distance traveling.
Passenger rail and health care is comparing apples and oranges. Loss of passenger rail is at best inconvenient, not having health care can be a question of life and death on a daily basis. I mentioned the German experience with system shutdowns affection 11.9 million people daily to show that even then life went on only less comfortable. So I don't understand the complaining about two or three cancelled Empire Builders. Better safe than sorry.
I said that those going the whole distance are mostly tourist. Which business man in his right mind would travel more than 2000 miles to a meeting on a slow Amtrak train? I count those to whom the ay is the reward as tourists.
Your 700+ miles average trip length doesn't tell anything. According RPA up to 99 miles are 5.3%, 100 - 199 mi. 14.2%, 200 - 299 mi. 14.8%; 700 - 799 mi. are just 2.5%. https://www.railpassengers.org/all-aboard/tools-info/ridership-statistics/And than by Route and Empire Builder.
If Amtrak wants to increase the ridership they need to get them in 0 - 299 mi. segment and that doesn't work with one train daily. I don't think that a second train will do. That's my opinion.
I don't need to be an American citizen to see and understand the problems passenger train services has in the USA. The German government has to have a hand in passenger trains as public transportion is laid down in our constitution.
The largest problem seems to me that Amtrak (With a few exceptions) doesn't own the tracks it runs. Amtrak is more or less at the mercy of the class 1s while in Germany passenger trains have absolute priority. That is why I said more Amtrak trains might be problematic with freight railroad.
That is my opinion, you can share it or not.
I beg one favor: Before you acuse me of making false statements again, do your homework yourself and don't cite only numbers from a statistic that suit your opinion.Regards, Volker
BaltACD There would be more utility were there two trains daily between the OD pairs roughly 12 hours apart, so that communities that are served in the middle of the night by one train could be served in the middle of the day by the other; the bigger question is if there would be sufficient passenger loads to support both trains.
There would be more utility were there two trains daily between the OD pairs roughly 12 hours apart, so that communities that are served in the middle of the night by one train could be served in the middle of the day by the other; the bigger question is if there would be sufficient passenger loads to support both trains.
Post deleted
The closest thing to "ghost trains" in pre-Amtrak America were "bee Liners" that were trains with an engine and one coach, or maybe a self-propelled car, that were usually run because they could not get regulator authority to discontinue. By the time the became bee-liners they were not well patronized. These went away with Amtrak, with maybe the exception of a train between Washington, DC and West Verginia (Hilltopper?) that was kept on because a West Virginia senator was the chair of the transportation commitee. The train was eventually resurected as the Cardinal and expanded to Chicago.
By contrast the Empire Builder and most other LD trains each carry hundredes of people, so it would be ludicrous to call them "ghost trains".
VerMontananYour comments lead me to believe you lack the hands-on, historical and institutional knowledge to understand why people along the route and elsewhere are displeased with the decision to cancel the service.
Your rudeness is only exceded by your inability to stick to facts.According to Amtrak state fact sheet, Montana had 125K* passengers in all of 2017, most of it from a handful of towns. The EB had 454K from all stations. Thus Montana had ~28% of the riders. Given that the train had an Adjusted Operating Earnings (loss)** of $53.6 million for FY 2017, it seems to me that a more useful operation would be a state-supported service of 2-3 trains daily in MT, ID and WA (another 195K passengers), since such a large portion (320K/454K= 70%) of the total ridership is regional. If that service is so essential, why can't MT and the others cough up the subsidy instead of continuing the fiction that the EB is an LD train?
*City Boardings + Alightings:
Browning (winter only) 1,644
Cut Bank 2,544
East Glacier (summer only)14,348
Essex 3,253
Glasgow 4,945
Havre 11,570
Libby 5,068
Malta 3,695
Shelby 10,887
West Glacier 5,495
Whitefish 57,093
Wolf Point 5,097
Total Montana Station Usage: 125,639
**Adjusted Operating Earnings is defined as GAAP Net Loss excluding: (1) certain non-cash items (depreciation, income tax expense, non-cash portion of pension and other post retirement employment benefits, and state capital payment amortization); and (2) GAAP income statement items reported with capital or debt results or other grants (project related revenue/costs reported with capital results, expense related to Inspector General’s office, and interest expense, net)
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