n012944 243129 obviously busy thoroughfare The gates go down for Amtrak at the 3:22 mark of the video, and road traffic resumes movement at the 6:40 mark. Even after having the street blocked for 3 minutes and 18 seconds a whopping 2 cars crossed the railroad after Amtrak cleared, or less than one car a minute. Both of those cars were northbound. Yep, obviously busy. I would even say it rivals the Dan Ryan Expressway at rush hour..... It appears that the street in question is North Lake Street, which is about a mile long. To see how busy it was I used Bing's steetview to travel down it both directions. There was no opposing cars when I did that, either way. There were however two kids walking down the middle of the street at one point. Busy indeed.
243129 obviously busy thoroughfare
obviously busy thoroughfare
The gates go down for Amtrak at the 3:22 mark of the video, and road traffic resumes movement at the 6:40 mark. Even after having the street blocked for 3 minutes and 18 seconds a whopping 2 cars crossed the railroad after Amtrak cleared, or less than one car a minute. Both of those cars were northbound. Yep, obviously busy. I would even say it rivals the Dan Ryan Expressway at rush hour.....
It appears that the street in question is North Lake Street, which is about a mile long. To see how busy it was I used Bing's steetview to travel down it both directions. There was no opposing cars when I did that, either way. There were however two kids walking down the middle of the street at one point. Busy indeed.
Starting at 7:43 - 10:11of the video I counted 8 cars crossing, with no apparent regard for the work equipment leaving the siding, with one near miss at 9:42 and then you see a track worker decide to protect the crossing.
At 10:46 the first piece of track equipment crosses a busy thoroughfare at 10:59 gates go up. At 11:10 second piece of equipment enters crossing with gates up/ no protection.
An "expensive model collector"
"BTW, I am not an expert on this subject but I would think if the Amtrak train is comming to a complete stop at the RR crossing and sends out a flagman with fuses.........you really do not need to activate the crossing signals."
I never said you need to activate the crossing signals. If they are available why not use them for added protection? My observation was that the maintainer should have activated them sooner.
"Even more so if a passing motorist sees the RR crew at the RR crossing with their trucks and reflective vests they should come to the conclusion the signals might be under service and may not work?"
You place an awful lot of faith in the motorist. Did you happen to notice in the video traffic ignoring the train and the work area?
"So I would tend to think your incorrect on the whole crossing signal deal. Crossing signals are kind of optional, in my view."
So you tend to think that the work equipment that crossed an obviously busy thoroughfare with no on ground protection and before crossing signals were activated and in the second case fully deployed is proper in your view? CSX seems to condone work equipment crossing thoroughfares with visual confirmation. This to me is an unsafe and dangerous practice that the FRA should and will be made aware of. Injury lawyers knowing of CSX's rule to allow such practice would salivate over a crossing/vehicle accident under those circumstances.
CMStPnPCMStPnP wrote the following post 3 hours ago: 243129I said: "I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion." CMStPnP said: "I would really be surprised if they took any action since your not an employee of either railroad in the video. Your likely to get a boilerplate form letter and that is where it will stop."
243129I said: "I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion."
CMStPnP said: "I would really be surprised if they took any action since your not an employee of either railroad in the video. Your likely to get a boilerplate form letter and that is where it will stop."
If you call them, they will let you talk to someone who can address your question. You can also email them. It may help to call them first and ask who to email. They will email back in response, so you have a record of who you talked to and what they told you. I don't know what would happen if you actually filed a formal complaint. I would not be surprised of that took a long time to get a formal response.
243129I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion.
I would really be surprised if they took any action since your not an employee of either railroad in the video. Your likely to get a boilerplate form letter and that is where it will stop. BTW, I am not an expert on this subject but I would think if the Amtrak train is comming to a complete stop at the RR crossing and sends out a flagman with fuses.........you really do not need to activate the crossing signals.
In fact if the crossing signals malfunction completely and someone drives into the side of the train........not a lawyer but I would tend to think it is still the motorists fault since the crossing is marked with cross bucks and in every driver license manual I have read, the manual says cross bucks are enough and implies heavily you should NOT rely on the electronic warning devices. Otherwise they would not tell you to look both ways or slow for the crossing NOR would they mandate School Busses to stop and open their doors at the crossings to listen for a horn.
Even more so if a passing motorist sees the RR crew at the RR crossing with their trucks and reflective vests they should come to the conclusion the signals might be under service and may not work?
So I would tend to think your incorrect on the whole crossing signal deal. Crossing signals are kind of optional, in my view.
We have all heard the phrase 'The USA and United Kingdom are a common civilization separated by a common language.'
In that same vein, Divisions of a railroad are separated by a common rule book.
In my experience of working on three different divisions of the B&O as a Train Order Operator, working all over Chessie System in my various official positions and then working on the Tampa, Jacksonville, Atlanta, Mobile and Baltimore Divisions of CSX (which includes the Baltimore Division acquiring portions of both the Huntington and Selkirk Divisions. Each Division expects slight but signifigant differences in rule interpertation and compliance. They are separate and different with a common Rule Book.
The one thing that the original move of CSX Train Dispatchers to Jacksonville was to breed a common understanding and application of the rules, as everybody in Jacksonville was taught one method and were efficiency tested on following the methods that had been taught.
When the Dispatch offices were decentralized in 2008 one could see the different Divisions doing thngs different than each other - working their way toward being separate with a common Rule Book.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
243129 n012944 243129 BaltACD 243129 You among others have set the tone here and I choose not to sink to your level You have sunk well beyond the level of the posters you complain about - you can't accept the reality of situations when they are explained to you. I noticed you never answered my questions about were any rules violated. I noticed your cheeleader however. I noticed you ignored the rules posted that showed none were violated. I noticed you ignored the request for you to provide the specific rule numbers that you claimed were violated. I noticed instead of providing proof of your claimes, you provided insults. Pretty immature for someone claiming to have 51 years on the railroad.... Hold on there you made the context of my posts fit your agenda i.e.you post that my comment about "seems excessive" and "boarding from the ballast" I classified as a rules violation. I did not. Did you happen to notice that the MoW and bucket loader continued to work with the train approaching within a hundred yards of their location? Tell me that is not a safety violation on any railroad. Insults? I am reactive not proactive. Insult me and you are likely to receive one in return. What I do claim as rules violations are the work equipment crossing busy public thoroughfares without proper protection Rule 712.20 notwithstanding. Had there been an accident at the crossing the MoW crew and perhaps CSX would be culpable. Paragraph #3 would have been invoked against the employees. For CSX to have such a rule allowing equipment to cross a busy thoroughfare without flag protection on the ground perhaps would be of great interest to the FRA. You have stated that no rules were violated safety or operating. I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion.
n012944 243129 BaltACD 243129 You among others have set the tone here and I choose not to sink to your level You have sunk well beyond the level of the posters you complain about - you can't accept the reality of situations when they are explained to you. I noticed you never answered my questions about were any rules violated. I noticed your cheeleader however. I noticed you ignored the rules posted that showed none were violated. I noticed you ignored the request for you to provide the specific rule numbers that you claimed were violated. I noticed instead of providing proof of your claimes, you provided insults. Pretty immature for someone claiming to have 51 years on the railroad....
243129 BaltACD 243129 You among others have set the tone here and I choose not to sink to your level You have sunk well beyond the level of the posters you complain about - you can't accept the reality of situations when they are explained to you. I noticed you never answered my questions about were any rules violated. I noticed your cheeleader however.
BaltACD 243129 You among others have set the tone here and I choose not to sink to your level You have sunk well beyond the level of the posters you complain about - you can't accept the reality of situations when they are explained to you.
243129 You among others have set the tone here and I choose not to sink to your level
You among others have set the tone here and I choose not to sink to your level
You have sunk well beyond the level of the posters you complain about - you can't accept the reality of situations when they are explained to you.
I noticed you never answered my questions about were any rules violated.
I noticed your cheeleader however.
I noticed you ignored the rules posted that showed none were violated.
I noticed you ignored the request for you to provide the specific rule numbers that you claimed were violated.
I noticed instead of providing proof of your claimes, you provided insults.
Pretty immature for someone claiming to have 51 years on the railroad....
Hold on there you made the context of my posts fit your agenda i.e.you post that my comment about "seems excessive" and "boarding from the ballast" I classified as a rules violation. I did not.
Did you happen to notice that the MoW and bucket loader continued to work with the train approaching within a hundred yards of their location? Tell me that is not a safety violation on any railroad.
Insults? I am reactive not proactive. Insult me and you are likely to receive one in return.
What I do claim as rules violations are the work equipment crossing busy public thoroughfares without proper protection Rule 712.20 notwithstanding. Had there been an accident at the crossing the MoW crew and perhaps CSX would be culpable. Paragraph #3 would have been invoked against the employees. For CSX to have such a rule allowing equipment to cross a busy thoroughfare without flag protection on the ground perhaps would be of great interest to the FRA.
You have stated that no rules were violated safety or operating. I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion.
Johnny
n012944 243129 Did you happen to notice that the MoW and bucket loader continued to work with the train approaching within a hundred yards of their location? Tell me that is not a safety violation on any railroad. It is not, as long as though the employee in charge did not give the Amtrak train permission into the limits that the bucket loader was working. Once again 707.11 The employee-in-charge may permit a train or on-track equipment to proceed to one intermediate location within the working limits and stop. When safe to do so, the employee-in-charge must clear the movement through the entire remaining limits In the video the train is within 100 yards of the area where the MoW is working and they still are not within working limits area?That seems unlikely and unsafe. 243129 What I do claim as rules violations are the work equipment crossing busy public thoroughfares without proper protection Rule 712.20 notwithstanding. So, the rules don't matter. Gotcha. How do you know the road is a "busy public thoroughfare"? For all we know it could be a sleepy little country road, or a glorified driveway. Also from the rules 12.29 When approaching a highway-rail crossing at grade: Be prepared to stop short of the crossing, Do not operate on-track equipment over the crossing unless the way is known to be clear, and If necessary, use a flagman wearing a lime yellow or orange vest to stop highway traffic." So, as far as we know, the MOW employees knew the road to be clear, and did not feel a flagman was necessary. Not a rules violation from the info we have. But hey, your already qualifed on the CSX rule book, so you know this. Oh wait...... This is where you become annoying. I shall refrain from reacting to your snarky asides.....for now. Where do I say the rules don't matter? The video denotes frequent traffic on both thoroughfares. 243129 Insults? I am reactive not proactive. Insult me and you are likely to receive one in return. Not really feeling that, you post history states otherwise. But whatever helps you sleep at night. My post history demonstrates that I am reactive not proactive. Prove otherwise. 243129 I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion. Sure you will.
243129 Did you happen to notice that the MoW and bucket loader continued to work with the train approaching within a hundred yards of their location? Tell me that is not a safety violation on any railroad.
It is not, as long as though the employee in charge did not give the Amtrak train permission into the limits that the bucket loader was working. Once again
707.11 The employee-in-charge may permit a train or on-track equipment to proceed to one intermediate location within the working limits and stop. When safe to do so, the employee-in-charge must clear the movement through the entire remaining limits
In the video the train is within 100 yards of the area where the MoW is working and they still are not within working limits area?That seems unlikely and unsafe.
243129 What I do claim as rules violations are the work equipment crossing busy public thoroughfares without proper protection Rule 712.20 notwithstanding.
What I do claim as rules violations are the work equipment crossing busy public thoroughfares without proper protection Rule 712.20 notwithstanding.
So, the rules don't matter. Gotcha. How do you know the road is a "busy public thoroughfare"? For all we know it could be a sleepy little country road, or a glorified driveway. Also from the rules
12.29 When approaching a highway-rail crossing at grade:
Be prepared to stop short of the crossing,
Do not operate on-track equipment over the crossing unless the way is known to be clear, and
If necessary, use a flagman wearing a lime yellow or orange vest to stop highway traffic."
So, as far as we know, the MOW employees knew the road to be clear, and did not feel a flagman was necessary. Not a rules violation from the info we have. But hey, your already qualifed on the CSX rule book, so you know this. Oh wait......
This is where you become annoying. I shall refrain from reacting to your snarky asides.....for now.
Where do I say the rules don't matter? The video denotes frequent traffic on both thoroughfares.
243129 Insults? I am reactive not proactive. Insult me and you are likely to receive one in return.
Not really feeling that, you post history states otherwise. But whatever helps you sleep at night.
My post history demonstrates that I am reactive not proactive. Prove otherwise.
243129 I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion.
I will submit the subject video to the FRA for their opinion.
Sure you will.
If you look at my ost count you can see that I'm not what you call a resident.
But there are things I don't like. Claiming without proof is one them, not beeing able to back when proven wrong is another one.
And as the question, so the answer. Read your own posts and perhaps you understand.
The whole time you were trying to question BaltACD's experience and it didn't work. When you get called perhaps not having enough experience to judge CSX MoW rules you are offended.
That is what I mean with hiding behind personal anomosity as well hiding behind my remark.
My remark about being someone on a crusade just allowing his own opinion wasn't meant snarky, it is a statement how I view you based on your posts.
The problems seems to be that your not looking for an openended discussion but for confirmation of your opinion.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR It would have been interesting to see you compare your latest assumptions with the CSX rule posted by n012944. But again you hide behind personal animosity. 1) You believe the Amtrak train had permission through the work zone. The movement toward the workers can't be the reason as it had to stop. Where is the work zone limit? Believing is not knowing. 2) Rule violation by MoW workers crossing road without protection. Quote from n012944's post: "712.29 When approaching a highway-rail crossing at grade: Be prepared to stop short of the crossing, Do not operate on-track equipment over the crossing unless the way is known to be clear, and If necessary, use a flagman wearing a lime yellow or orange vest to stop highway traffic." For me it looks as if the MoW workers didn't deem protection necessary 3) And then there is crossing of MoW equipment with not fully closed gates. My answer: see 2) That is a layman's view of what was posted here and I trust the CSX railroaders, not someone who is on a crusade just allowing his own opinion.Regards, Volker
It would have been interesting to see you compare your latest assumptions with the CSX rule posted by n012944. But again you hide behind personal animosity.
1) You believe the Amtrak train had permission through the work zone. The movement toward the workers can't be the reason as it had to stop. Where is the work zone limit? Believing is not knowing.
2) Rule violation by MoW workers crossing road without protection.
Quote from n012944's post:
"712.29 When approaching a highway-rail crossing at grade:
3) And then there is crossing of MoW equipment with not fully closed gates. My answer: see 2)
That is a layman's view of what was posted here and I trust the CSX railroaders, not someone who is on a crusade just allowing his own opinion.Regards, Volker
Ah I see that you also are one of the 'residents' here who specialize in snarky asides.
"again you hide behind personal animosity"
My "personal animosity"? The animosity lies with no12944. Did you happen to read his comment snarkily inferring that perhaps 51 years is not enough experience?
Your#3 referring to #2 leads me to believe, along with your snarky comments i.e " someone who is on a crusade just allowing his own opinion" and the above "hiding" comment that responding will be an exercise in futility.
n012944 243129 243129 Observations; The MoW crew has no lookout. The train is in view and the bucket loader continues to work as do the laborers. No effort is made to protect crossing by the MoW crew. Signal maintainer waits until train is almost stopped to unplug crossing gates.Use of fusees in daytime along with flag protection and crossing gates seems excessive. No crossing protection provided when track equipment is moved from siding.Where is the signal maintainer? Second piece of track equipment does not wait for crossing gates to be fully deployed before crossing what looks to be a heavily traveled thoroughfare. Multiple rules violations and inadequate training by CSX. I'm surprised CSX management has not seen this and reacted. You all call for rule numbers. Are you all equipped with a CSX rules book? Each railroad has it own rules regimen specific to their operation. That being said there is a generality that applies to all railroads. There are some things you just do not do and this video is a tutorial on what not to do. No lookout. The oncoming train is in view, work continues. Bucket loader continues to foul the main line. Suppose bucket loader breaks down while fouling? Suppose engineer on oncoming train suffers a medical event? Is this not a safety violation? As pointed out by Balt, this looks like a 707 with an employee in charge. No lookout needed. The employee in charge would have told Amtrak to not pass milepost ABC123 without permission, and that permission would not be granted until all on track equipment reports clear to the employee in charge. No rule violation there. 707.11 The employee-in-charge may permit a train or on-track equipment to proceed to one intermediate location within the working limits and stop. When safe to do so, the employee-in-charge must clear the movement through the entire remaining limits 243129 No effort is made by MoW crew to protect crossing. Signal maintainer waits until train is virtually at the crossing before activating crossing gates. While no rules are violated here common sense and training come in to play. Common sense and training are in play. We do not know if the gates can stay down on their own, so the crew protecting an activation failure at the crossing is the safe course. 314.4 Automatic warning devices of a highway-rail crossing at grade are not functioning properly when: Flashing lights are not actuated at least 20 seconds prior to the leading end of the movement reaching the crossing, or Crossing gates, if equipped, are not in the fully lowered position before the leading end of movement reaches the crossing. 243129 Fusees coupled with crossing gate activation and personnel with red flag seems excessive. Train crew member reboards train from the ballast instead of from firm footing on the crossing increasing the chance for injury. Now excessive crossing protection is a rule violation? Come on. If the crew has been notified by either their train orders or an EC-1 from the dispatcher that the crossing needs to be stopped and flagged, they are required to do so, regardless of how the crossing is functioning when they arrive. There is also no rule requiring someone to not board from the ballast. 314.2 When protection by a crewmember from the ground is required at highway-rail crossings at grade: Stop the movement before fouling the crossing, Position a crewmember or appropriately equipped flagman on the ground to stop vehicular and pedestrian traffic, Place a burning fusee on each side of the crossing when the automatic warning devices are not functioning properly or when notified by the dispatcher message or Form EC-1 of an activation failure, 243129 No crossing protection afforded work equipment leaving siding, a rule violation is it not? Second piece of work equipment crosses a main roadway before crossing gates are fully deployed. Flagrant rule violation is it not? No, on track equipment does not use crossing protection. Most do not shunt reliably enough to do so. "712.29 When approaching a highway-rail crossing at grade: Be prepared to stop short of the crossing, Do not operate on-track equipment over the crossing unless the way is known to be clear, and If necessary, use a flagman wearing a lime yellow or orange vest to stop highway traffic." 243129 Train orders,radio conversations ,not being privy to CSX rules not withstanding I am confident that the above mentioned scenarios do indeed constitute violations. Then maybe 51 years on the railroad is not enough to be an expert on it.
243129 243129 Observations; The MoW crew has no lookout. The train is in view and the bucket loader continues to work as do the laborers. No effort is made to protect crossing by the MoW crew. Signal maintainer waits until train is almost stopped to unplug crossing gates.Use of fusees in daytime along with flag protection and crossing gates seems excessive. No crossing protection provided when track equipment is moved from siding.Where is the signal maintainer? Second piece of track equipment does not wait for crossing gates to be fully deployed before crossing what looks to be a heavily traveled thoroughfare. Multiple rules violations and inadequate training by CSX. I'm surprised CSX management has not seen this and reacted. You all call for rule numbers. Are you all equipped with a CSX rules book? Each railroad has it own rules regimen specific to their operation. That being said there is a generality that applies to all railroads. There are some things you just do not do and this video is a tutorial on what not to do. No lookout. The oncoming train is in view, work continues. Bucket loader continues to foul the main line. Suppose bucket loader breaks down while fouling? Suppose engineer on oncoming train suffers a medical event? Is this not a safety violation?
243129 Observations; The MoW crew has no lookout. The train is in view and the bucket loader continues to work as do the laborers. No effort is made to protect crossing by the MoW crew. Signal maintainer waits until train is almost stopped to unplug crossing gates.Use of fusees in daytime along with flag protection and crossing gates seems excessive. No crossing protection provided when track equipment is moved from siding.Where is the signal maintainer? Second piece of track equipment does not wait for crossing gates to be fully deployed before crossing what looks to be a heavily traveled thoroughfare. Multiple rules violations and inadequate training by CSX. I'm surprised CSX management has not seen this and reacted.
Observations;
The MoW crew has no lookout. The train is in view and the bucket loader continues to work as do the laborers. No effort is made to protect crossing by the MoW crew. Signal maintainer waits until train is almost stopped to unplug crossing gates.Use of fusees in daytime along with flag protection and crossing gates seems excessive. No crossing protection provided when track equipment is moved from siding.Where is the signal maintainer? Second piece of track equipment does not wait for crossing gates to be fully deployed before crossing what looks to be a heavily traveled thoroughfare.
Multiple rules violations and inadequate training by CSX. I'm surprised CSX management has not seen this and reacted.
You all call for rule numbers. Are you all equipped with a CSX rules book? Each railroad has it own rules regimen specific to their operation. That being said there is a generality that applies to all railroads. There are some things you just do not do and this video is a tutorial on what not to do.
No lookout. The oncoming train is in view, work continues. Bucket loader continues to foul the main line. Suppose bucket loader breaks down while fouling? Suppose engineer on oncoming train suffers a medical event? Is this not a safety violation?
As pointed out by Balt, this looks like a 707 with an employee in charge. No lookout needed. The employee in charge would have told Amtrak to not pass milepost ABC123 without permission, and that permission would not be granted until all on track equipment reports clear to the employee in charge. No rule violation there.
243129 No effort is made by MoW crew to protect crossing. Signal maintainer waits until train is virtually at the crossing before activating crossing gates. While no rules are violated here common sense and training come in to play.
No effort is made by MoW crew to protect crossing. Signal maintainer waits until train is virtually at the crossing before activating crossing gates. While no rules are violated here common sense and training come in to play.
Common sense and training are in play. We do not know if the gates can stay down on their own, so the crew protecting an activation failure at the crossing is the safe course.
314.4 Automatic warning devices of a highway-rail crossing at grade are not functioning properly when:
Flashing lights are not actuated at least 20 seconds prior to the leading end of the
movement reaching the crossing, or
Crossing gates, if equipped, are not in the fully lowered position before the leading end of movement reaches the crossing.
243129 Fusees coupled with crossing gate activation and personnel with red flag seems excessive. Train crew member reboards train from the ballast instead of from firm footing on the crossing increasing the chance for injury.
Fusees coupled with crossing gate activation and personnel with red flag seems excessive. Train crew member reboards train from the ballast instead of from firm footing on the crossing increasing the chance for injury.
Now excessive crossing protection is a rule violation? Come on. If the crew has been notified by either their train orders or an EC-1 from the dispatcher that the crossing needs to be stopped and flagged, they are required to do so, regardless of how the crossing is functioning when they arrive. There is also no rule requiring someone to not board from the ballast.
314.2 When protection by a crewmember from the ground is required at highway-rail crossings at grade:
Stop the movement before fouling the crossing,
Position a crewmember or appropriately equipped flagman on the ground to stop vehicular and pedestrian traffic,
Place a burning fusee on each side of the crossing when the automatic warning devices are not functioning properly or when notified by the dispatcher message or Form EC-1 of an activation failure,
243129 No crossing protection afforded work equipment leaving siding, a rule violation is it not? Second piece of work equipment crosses a main roadway before crossing gates are fully deployed. Flagrant rule violation is it not?
No crossing protection afforded work equipment leaving siding, a rule violation is it not?
Second piece of work equipment crosses a main roadway before crossing gates are fully deployed. Flagrant rule violation is it not?
No, on track equipment does not use crossing protection. Most do not shunt reliably enough to do so.
243129 Train orders,radio conversations ,not being privy to CSX rules not withstanding I am confident that the above mentioned scenarios do indeed constitute violations.
Train orders,radio conversations ,not being privy to CSX rules not withstanding I am confident that the above mentioned scenarios do indeed constitute violations.
Then maybe 51 years on the railroad is not enough to be an expert on it.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD 243129 Notice These rules: • Are effective January 1, 2014. • Govern conditions and actions on railroads operated by CSX in the United States. • Supersede all previous versions ofCSX Transportation Operating Rules & Signal Aspects and Indications . • Are dedicated to the men and women of CSX, to help us work as a team to provide our customers with the safest, most cost-effective, and environmentally responsible rail transportation services in the industry . While every effort has been made to create a comprehensive set of operating rules, it is impossible to write a rulebook that covers every circumstance. Therefore, where no specific rule applies, rely on good judgment and follow the safest course available This practice was certainly not employed on the scenes in the video. The Devil be in the details - and all the other rules that have been published in the Rule Book, Modified by Special Instructions printed in the Timetable for each subdivision, further modified by Superintendents Bulletins and finally modified by Train Messages issued by the Train Dispatcher that are Mandatory Directives. Until you know ALL that was in play with what was witnessed, you know nothing about the permissibility of what you saw. So you see no violations on that video? Running across a busy thoroughfare before warning protection is deployed is not a rules violation? What the video tells me - 1. Train was holding a Stop & Flag train message for that particular crossing, the Conductor dismounted from 'THE ENGINE' with his flagging materials, thus proving he was aware of his requirement PRIOR to reaching the crossing. 2. MofW crew was operating under the protection of a Rule 704 Work Zone message in effect for their designated limits. For a train to pass through the limits of a Rule 704 Work Zone the train must recieve permission from the flagman that is designated in the Train Message that establishes the 704 Work Zone. The Flagmen is in 'control' of the MofW crew regarding ACTUAL TRACK OCCUPANCY. The Flagman tells the train at what speed to pass through the work zone and what if any additional instructions that may be necessary for safe passage through the zone. Without hearing the communications between the Flagman and the Train you have no idea of any restrictions that may or may not have been given for the train operation. If the train is unable to contact the Flagman - the train will stay stopped at the starting board of the work zone until they establish contact with the Flagman and get his permission to move through the area. Normally, if the train is not able to raise the Flagman themselves, they will contact the Train Dispatcher and as for his assistance in getting the Flagman to answer the train. In any event the train will not pass through the work zone without permission of the Flagman. 3. Crossing protection operating after the arrival of the train is a red herring. The train holds a Stop & Flag message and they are obligated to comply with the requirements of the Train Message which means they have to STOP traffic as if the crossing protection was not operating. Stopping traffic on busy roadways is not an easy task. 4. MofW employees operate on their own series of rules, that govern their actions at their work sites. I am not trained on the MofW series of rules.
243129 BaltACD 243129 Notice These rules: • Are effective January 1, 2014. • Govern conditions and actions on railroads operated by CSX in the United States. • Supersede all previous versions ofCSX Transportation Operating Rules & Signal Aspects and Indications . • Are dedicated to the men and women of CSX, to help us work as a team to provide our customers with the safest, most cost-effective, and environmentally responsible rail transportation services in the industry . While every effort has been made to create a comprehensive set of operating rules, it is impossible to write a rulebook that covers every circumstance. Therefore, where no specific rule applies, rely on good judgment and follow the safest course available This practice was certainly not employed on the scenes in the video. The Devil be in the details - and all the other rules that have been published in the Rule Book, Modified by Special Instructions printed in the Timetable for each subdivision, further modified by Superintendents Bulletins and finally modified by Train Messages issued by the Train Dispatcher that are Mandatory Directives. Until you know ALL that was in play with what was witnessed, you know nothing about the permissibility of what you saw. So you see no violations on that video? Running across a busy thoroughfare before warning protection is deployed is not a rules violation?
BaltACD 243129 Notice These rules: • Are effective January 1, 2014. • Govern conditions and actions on railroads operated by CSX in the United States. • Supersede all previous versions ofCSX Transportation Operating Rules & Signal Aspects and Indications . • Are dedicated to the men and women of CSX, to help us work as a team to provide our customers with the safest, most cost-effective, and environmentally responsible rail transportation services in the industry . While every effort has been made to create a comprehensive set of operating rules, it is impossible to write a rulebook that covers every circumstance. Therefore, where no specific rule applies, rely on good judgment and follow the safest course available This practice was certainly not employed on the scenes in the video. The Devil be in the details - and all the other rules that have been published in the Rule Book, Modified by Special Instructions printed in the Timetable for each subdivision, further modified by Superintendents Bulletins and finally modified by Train Messages issued by the Train Dispatcher that are Mandatory Directives. Until you know ALL that was in play with what was witnessed, you know nothing about the permissibility of what you saw.
243129 Notice These rules: • Are effective January 1, 2014. • Govern conditions and actions on railroads operated by CSX in the United States. • Supersede all previous versions ofCSX Transportation Operating Rules & Signal Aspects and Indications . • Are dedicated to the men and women of CSX, to help us work as a team to provide our customers with the safest, most cost-effective, and environmentally responsible rail transportation services in the industry . While every effort has been made to create a comprehensive set of operating rules, it is impossible to write a rulebook that covers every circumstance. Therefore, where no specific rule applies, rely on good judgment and follow the safest course available This practice was certainly not employed on the scenes in the video.
The Devil be in the details - and all the other rules that have been published in the Rule Book, Modified by Special Instructions printed in the Timetable for each subdivision, further modified by Superintendents Bulletins and finally modified by Train Messages issued by the Train Dispatcher that are Mandatory Directives.
Until you know ALL that was in play with what was witnessed, you know nothing about the permissibility of what you saw.
So you see no violations on that video? Running across a busy thoroughfare before warning protection is deployed is not a rules violation?
What the video tells me -
1. Train was holding a Stop & Flag train message for that particular crossing, the Conductor dismounted from 'THE ENGINE' with his flagging materials, thus proving he was aware of his requirement PRIOR to reaching the crossing.
2. MofW crew was operating under the protection of a Rule 704 Work Zone message in effect for their designated limits. For a train to pass through the limits of a Rule 704 Work Zone the train must recieve permission from the flagman that is designated in the Train Message that establishes the 704 Work Zone. The Flagmen is in 'control' of the MofW crew regarding ACTUAL TRACK OCCUPANCY. The Flagman tells the train at what speed to pass through the work zone and what if any additional instructions that may be necessary for safe passage through the zone. Without hearing the communications between the Flagman and the Train you have no idea of any restrictions that may or may not have been given for the train operation. If the train is unable to contact the Flagman - the train will stay stopped at the starting board of the work zone until they establish contact with the Flagman and get his permission to move through the area. Normally, if the train is not able to raise the Flagman themselves, they will contact the Train Dispatcher and as for his assistance in getting the Flagman to answer the train. In any event the train will not pass through the work zone without permission of the Flagman.
3. Crossing protection operating after the arrival of the train is a red herring. The train holds a Stop & Flag message and they are obligated to comply with the requirements of the Train Message which means they have to STOP traffic as if the crossing protection was not operating. Stopping traffic on busy roadways is not an easy task.
4. MofW employees operate on their own series of rules, that govern their actions at their work sites. I am not trained on the MofW series of rules.
The MoW workers and the bucket loader continued to work while the train was moving towards them which leads me to believe the train had permission through the work area. I would consider the MoW crew to be in violation of the work area rule and a safety rule.
I have no problem with the train crew other than boarding from the crossing rather than the ballast would have been easier and safer. Yes the train crew must protect the crossing under these circumstances no matter the position of the crossing gates. The signal maintainer could/should have activated them sooner as an added assistance to traffic control.
The video clearly shows the MoW workers not providing crossing protection when work equipment is leaving the siding to occupy the main. This is a rule violation.
The video clearly shows a piece of work equipment crossing a main thoroughfare without the crossing gates fully deployed. This is a rule violation.
Now if previous history is any indicator you (pl) are going to clamor for a rule number. I don't have a rule number but anyone with railroad experience can plainly see the errors.
Were I privy to all the facts I am sure there would be more violations.
So tell me are there any rules violations from what you can see in that video?
BaltACD What the video tells me - 1. Train was holding a Stop & Flag train message for that particular crossing, the Conductor dismounted from 'THE ENGINE' with his flagging materials, thus proving he was aware of his requirement PRIOR to reaching the crossing. 2. MofW crew was operating under the protection of a Rule 704 Work Zone message in effect for their designated limits. For a train to pass through the limits of a Rule 704 Work Zone the train must recieve permission from the flagman that is designated in the Train Message that establishes the 704 Work Zone. The Flagmen is in 'control' of the MofW crew regarding ACTUAL TRACK OCCUPANCY. The Flagman tells the train at what speed to pass through the work zone and what if any additional instructions that may be necessary for safe passage through the zone. Without hearing the communications between the Flagman and the Train you have no idea of any restrictions that may or may not have been given for the train operation. If the train is unable to contact the Flagman - the train will stay stopped at the starting board of the work zone until they establish contact with the Flagman and get his permission to move through the area. Normally, if the train is not able to raise the Flagman themselves, they will contact the Train Dispatcher and as for his assistance in getting the Flagman to answer the train. In any event the train will not pass through the work zone without permission of the Flagman. 3. Crossing protection operating after the arrival of the train is a red herring. The train holds a Stop & Flag message and they are obligated to comply with the requirements of the Train Message which means they have to STOP traffic as if the crossing protection was not operating. Stopping traffic on busy roadways is not an easy task. 4. MofW employees operate on their own series of rules, that govern their actions at their work sites. I am not trained on the MofW series of rules.
This CSX rules qualifed poster agrees with Balt.
243129Notice These rules: • Are effective January 1, 2014. • Govern conditions and actions on railroads operated by CSX in the United States. • Supersede all previous versions ofCSX Transportation Operating Rules & Signal Aspects and Indications . • Are dedicated to the men and women of CSX, to help us work as a team to provide our customers with the safest, most cost-effective, and environmentally responsible rail transportation services in the industry . While every effort has been made to create a comprehensive set of operating rules, it is impossible to write a rulebook that covers every circumstance. Therefore, where no specific rule applies, rely on good judgment and follow the safest course available This practice was certainly not employed on the scenes in the video.
Yes, Volker, I agree with you. It will help us all to know just what rules were ignored--and also to read a rebuttal from someone who has worked under these rules.
243129So you see no violations on that video? Running across a busy thoroughfare before warning protection is deployed is not a rules violation?
I have the CSX rules but that doesn't mean I know them. I don't have to.
As I said before I'm not a railroader so I think railroaders making claims about rule violations should back their claim with the rule numbers so I can look them up afterwards.
As reluctant as you are I think you don't know. I this case I trust other railroaders here.
@Overmod: I have the rules but that doesn't mean I start searching the rules possibly in question for 243129.Regards, Volker
Edit: Interesting now it is good judgement and safest course.
Thanks, Overmod. Now any of our posters can cite rules that are believed to be ignored.
I notice that Rukes G (106) & H (107) (both greatly expanded) are still in force. Back in 1953, I saw an MP passenger conductor ignoring rule H--he was chewing tobacco on board.
How fortunate that our good friends at UTU have provided us all with the reference in question, so we can all find applicable chapter and verse to fit any perceived violation.
http://0924.utu.org/Files/[3100]2014%20CSX%20Rule%20Book.pdf
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