Amtrak vs. CSX MoW Crew?

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Amtrak vs. CSX MoW Crew?
Posted by CMStPnP on Saturday, March 10, 2018 8:19 AM

I don't get why it has to all be last min but could be the camera angle......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEmnTnQhTPM

 

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 10, 2018 10:04 AM

It is evident that Amtrak held a 'Stop & Flag' train message about the crossing.  When you hold such a message, you perform what is required by the message - even if the flashers and gates are opeating on arrival.  It would appear that the flashers and gates were ONLY operating on the 'short' circuit, not the circuit that would permit operating at normal speeds.  I have no idea which rule set the MofW employees were working under - it could have been under 704 authority - governed by a flagman that gives trains permission through the area, or it could have been on the 'single worker' subset of rules where the MofW people are not actually 'occupying' the track.

         

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Posted by n012944 on Saturday, March 10, 2018 10:59 AM

Good lord, talk about a misleading thread title.

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Posted by Deggesty on Saturday, March 10, 2018 11:21 AM

Oh, my. Do railroad operating personnel now call fusees "flares?" The cimments that I read (apparently by people with little knowledge of past railroad technology) mentioned '"flare" where I saw a fusee.

Incidentally, four years ago, when I watched a conductor go back to flag a crossing that we were going to back over, he carried (as I recall) ony a red flag. 

Johnny

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, March 10, 2018 2:27 PM

n012944
Good lord, talk about a misleading thread title.

The creator of this video 'Millenniumforce' seems to take great delight in creating 'dramatic' titles for the videos he publishes.  He seems to want to show CSX in the worst of all possible lights - to and including editing the videos to make it seem as if two trains are within seconds of each other - be it one following the other at track speed or trains proceeding of a railroad crossing at grade also at track speed.  From my view point he is a parasite that the rail fan community could do without.

         

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Posted by tdmidget on Tuesday, March 13, 2018 11:29 PM

Why is it that our "so called " moderators take exception to genuine opinions mereley because someone's wittle feelings got hurt and allow crap like this to be posted?

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 4:59 PM

tdmidget

Why is it that our "so called " moderators take exception to genuine opinions mereley because someone's wittle feelings got hurt and allow crap like this to be posted?

 

Might be because they are not aware of it? Did you use the report abuse function and let them know? If not, they are probably oblivious to this thread.

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Posted by BaltACD on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 6:06 PM

Murphy Siding
 
tdmidget

Why is it that our "so called " moderators take exception to genuine opinions mereley because someone's wittle feelings got hurt and allow crap like this to be posted? 

Might be because they are not aware of it? Did you use the report abuse function and let them know? If not, they are probably oblivious to this thread.

Contents of the thread, so far, are not objectionable.  What is objectionable is titling that the YouTube poster 'Milleniumforce' assigned to the video he posted on YouTube.  

Trains cannot be responsible for what gets posted on YouTube.

         

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Posted by CMStPnP on Wednesday, March 14, 2018 9:16 PM

BaltACD
Contents of the thread, so far, are not objectionable.  What is objectionable is titling that the YouTube poster 'Milleniumforce' assigned to the video he posted on YouTube.   Trains cannot be responsible for what gets posted on YouTube.

I think your misreading both negative comments as to what their intended target was.   An experienced Moderator will look at this thread and then click on the compaining posters and see what they posted or contributed to other threads and come to a conclusion as to what the issue really is.    Thats how moderators moderate usually.

At any rate, agree with you on Milleniumforce.

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Posted by Overmod on Thursday, March 15, 2018 7:42 AM

I think BaltACD did a very good job of addressing both of the 'negative comments' -- certainly with regard to directing "poster ire" to the appropriate topic, which is Millenniumforce and not Amtrak or CSX.  Note that I carefully refrain from commenting on the timing of his putting up on March 4th a video of Amtrak 91 apparently having signal problems 'caused' by a CSX crew.

It occurs to me that the whole 'flap' would have been avoided simply by putting the offending video title in quotes in the post subject line.  That would make it much more clear that the phrase was YouTube clickbait and not a poster's actual topic or opinion.  It took me a while and more than one viewing of some of the video to realize this was, in fact, not some kind of misunderstanding or screwup.  (And yes, the rational comments helped.)

In fact, even now you might want to make that edit.

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Posted by daveklepper on Thursday, March 15, 2018 10:59 AM

But not sll of us have edit buttons.   At 86 should I sue the moderator or Kalmbach for age discrimination?

Ecept for the recent Frank Sinatra post on Classic Trains, please inform me of one post of mine that violated the rules as stated.  Can anyone point out a posting of mine?   Or does it all hinge on the one post abot a year ago when I answered someone's question as to why I wanted a sick person's mother's name?   If the post is still available, is my answer really a religous post?

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Posted by Overmod on Friday, March 16, 2018 7:19 PM

daveklepper
But not all of us have edit buttons.

Edit button would not be a help in this case; it was CMStP&P's post.

There were enough religious discussions to get at least one moderator to put your traffic under 'review' (which is what part of actual moderation is).  The absence of the 'edit' button is because any changes to a post also would require moderator 'review' but the edit function's changes are immediate.  So (theoretically speaking) someone could post something innocuous, then just wait to insert something incendiary, trolling, or just contrary to TOS by using the edit control ... therefore people on moderation can't see that control.

It would be nice if at least one moderator would accept your comments or edits via PM, and then make them appropriately 'in time'.  Most of the modern (post-DMCA) interpretations of e-mail lists as well as BBSes keep moderators from modifying individual posts (either to redact language or add comments) vs. just denying posts 'for cause' ... but that might not apply to specifically requested changes by an original poster/intellectual-rights holder.

Who that individual at Kalmbach might be, I don't know.  You might PM a couple of them directly to see if one would reconsider your status or agree to make edits for you.  Note I said to PM them.  There used to be explicit mention in the TOS that criticism of moderation was not permitted, and it really isn't a suitable subject for open posting.  I only bring it up here as a matter of general interest for members who may for some reason find themselves on initial or 'consequential' moderated status.

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Posted by 243129 on Wednesday, March 21, 2018 7:55 PM

That is probably the worst performance of a stop and protect order I have ever witnessed.

The MofW foreman should be fired and the equipment operators removed from service for rules instruction along with the signal maintainer who can be seen plugging the crossing gates for the train yet did not do so for the track equipment. There are so many violations ,both safety and rules, in this video one can see why there is an uptick in train accidents.

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Posted by 243129 on Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:03 PM

BaltACD

 

 
n012944
Good lord, talk about a misleading thread title.

 

The creator of this video 'Millenniumforce' seems to take great delight in creating 'dramatic' titles for the videos he publishes.  He seems to want to show CSX in the worst of all possible lights - 

 

CSX did not require any help to be shown in the "worst of all possible lights" they did a wonderful job of that in the video. The procedure clearly showed a lack of, poor or both of training.

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:15 PM

243129
. There are so many violations ,both safety and rules, in this video one can see why there is an uptick in train accidents.

Such as? I want specific rule numbers. 

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by 243129 on Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:22 PM

Before I point out the obvious violations less the rule numbers let me ask you this. Is your intent to annoy me?

Your remarks here and on the 'Clear and present danger thread' seem to indicate that. Correct me if I am wrong.

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Posted by zugmann on Wednesday, March 21, 2018 8:36 PM

You made claim there were rules broken.  So give the specific rules.

 

 

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 22, 2018 7:14 AM

Do we have a new identity for yes but?

         

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Posted by 243129 on Thursday, March 22, 2018 8:42 AM

Observations;

The MoW crew has no lookout. The train is in view and the bucket loader continues to work as do the laborers. No effort is made to protect crossing by the MoW crew. Signal maintainer waits until train is almost stopped to unplug crossing gates.Use of fusees in daytime along with flag protection and crossing gates seems excessive. No crossing protection provided when track equipment is moved from siding.Where is the signal maintainer? Second piece of track equipment does not wait for crossing gates to be fully deployed before crossing what looks to be a heavily traveled thoroughfare.

Multiple rules violations and inadequate training by CSX. I'm surprised CSX management has not seen this and reacted.

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Posted by Angela Pusztai-Pasternak on Thursday, March 22, 2018 9:02 AM
Hi, folks. Let's refrain from personal attacks — completely unnecessary and uncalled for. Thanks.

Angela Pusztai-Pasternak, Production Editor, Trains Magazine

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Posted by Angela Pusztai-Pasternak on Thursday, March 22, 2018 9:05 AM

tdmidget

Why is it that our "so called " moderators take exception to genuine opinions mereley because someone's wittle feelings got hurt and allow crap like this to be posted?

 

The rules state that there are to be no personal attacks. Thanks.

Angela Pusztai-Pasternak, Production Editor, Trains Magazine

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, March 22, 2018 9:08 AM

243129
Observations;

The MoW crew has no lookout. The train is in view and the bucket loader continues to work as do the laborers. No effort is made to protect crossing by the MoW crew. Signal maintainer waits until train is almost stopped to unplug crossing gates.Use of fusees in daytime along with flag protection and crossing gates seems excessive. No crossing protection provided when track equipment is moved from siding.Where is the signal maintainer? Second piece of track equipment does not wait for crossing gates to be fully deployed before crossing what looks to be a heavily traveled thoroughfare.

Multiple rules violations and inadequate training by CSX. I'm surprised CSX management has not seen this and reacted.

Without knowledge of radio conversations that happened preceeding and during the incident and train messages that were in effect for all the parties - anything else is just blind conjecture.

         

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Posted by 243129 on Thursday, March 22, 2018 9:44 AM

"Blind conjecture"? The violations are obvious and glaring. Is entering a main thoroughfare before protection is afforded "blind conjecture"?

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, March 23, 2018 4:23 AM

If they are that obvious and glaring, then it wouldn't be hard to list the specific rules violated.   That was not intended to be a personal attack, just my personal opinion.

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, March 23, 2018 8:33 AM

If one cannot see the safety and operations rules/procedures violated here by watching the video then they should recuse themselves from this discussion. They are eminently not qualified to participate.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, March 23, 2018 8:44 AM

243129
If one cannot see the safety and operations rules/procedures violated here by watching the video then they should recuse themselves from this discussion. They are eminently not qualified to participate.

Rule number - not bragadocio!  Also transcripts of radio conversations between the parties involved as well as copies of train messages that each party held and were operating under for this location.

         

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Posted by VOLKER LANDWEHR on Friday, March 23, 2018 9:04 AM

243129
If one cannot see the safety and operations rules/procedures violated here by watching the video then they should recuse themselves from this discussion. They are eminently not qualified to participate.

IIRC correctly this a forum is for railroaders and non-railroader. I don't know the violated rules but am interested to learn. So why not tell?

Or do you just have a clue but don't know the rules yourself?

But I'm not qualified by your standards (not the forum standards)
Regards, Volker

 

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, March 23, 2018 9:09 AM

I doubt any rarilroader would be happy if he/she got a certified letter that said "due to your rule infractions, your employment with the railroad is hereby terminated"

Just like a nobody would be happy if they got a traffic ticket for "yeah, you didn't follow some rules.  You now have 5 points on your license".

 

Asking for specifics from someone making accusations is not really snark.  Just a simple request that I see will not (can not?) be fulfilled.  So don't worry Angie, (and all you hitting that 'report abuse' button like it's going out of style) I'm done asking.  I think the characters of this little play have all been fleshed out well enough for the audience.  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer or any other railroad, company, or person.

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Posted by 243129 on Friday, March 23, 2018 10:31 AM

243129

Observations;

The MoW crew has no lookout. The train is in view and the bucket loader continues to work as do the laborers. No effort is made to protect crossing by the MoW crew. Signal maintainer waits until train is almost stopped to unplug crossing gates.Use of fusees in daytime along with flag protection and crossing gates seems excessive. No crossing protection provided when track equipment is moved from siding.Where is the signal maintainer? Second piece of track equipment does not wait for crossing gates to be fully deployed before crossing what looks to be a heavily traveled thoroughfare.

Multiple rules violations and inadequate training by CSX. I'm surprised CSX management has not seen this and reacted.

 

You all call for rule numbers. Are you all equipped with a CSX rules book? Each railroad has it own rules regimen specific to their operation. That being said there is a generality that applies to all railroads. There are some things you just do not do and this video is a tutorial on what not to do.

No lookout. The oncoming train is in view, work continues. Bucket loader continues to foul the main line. Suppose bucket loader breaks down while fouling? Suppose engineer on oncoming train suffers a medical event? Is this not a safety violation?

No effort is made by MoW crew to protect crossing. Signal maintainer waits until train is virtually at the crossing before activating crossing gates. While no rules are violated here common sense and training come in to play.

Fusees coupled with crossing gate activation and personnel with red flag seems excessive. Train crew member reboards train from the ballast instead of from firm footing on the crossing increasing the chance for injury.

No crossing protection afforded work equipment leaving siding, a rule violation is it not?

Second piece of work equipment crosses a main roadway before crossing gates are fully deployed. Flagrant rule violation is it not?

Train orders,radio conversations ,not being privy to CSX rules not withstanding I am confident that the above mentioned scenarios do indeed constitute violations.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Friday, March 23, 2018 10:47 AM

243129

If one cannot see the safety and operations rules/procedures violated here by watching the video then they should recuse themselves from this discussion. They are eminently not qualified to participate.

 

I disagree. This is a public forum for members to discuss railroading. I am not a railroader. You say you are/were a railroader. My opinion is just as valid as yours because they are opinions.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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