Amtrak 501 Derail in Washington State

[7j43k]

Garrick is feeling too poorly to be interviewed by NTSB.  According to the NTSB.  

Garrick is feeling well enough to make a contract with his new lawyer, and likely discuss his case.  

 

Sounds almost like me when I wanted to stay home from school when I was "sick".

 

 

Ed

 

 

 

 

[Euclid]

VOLKER LANDWEHR

Why this impatience? Does the delay of the interviews really matter in an investigation that take one to two years? Does the engineer have to answer NTSB questions?

I don’t think I am the only one who thinks NTSB is grandstanding to make a larger production of these high profile wrecks than needs be.  The delay in the interview was entirely predictable.  The larger point is the presumed need for the accident investigation to take one to two years.

Ironically, the NTSB’s message of teaching lessons that need to be learned from accidents is being stepped on by their delay in delivering the message.  I expect the engineer to never be interviewed.  Why would he consent to an interview?  Ultimately, it will be the process of litigation over criminal negligence and civil suits that will finally reveal what caused this wreck. 

[Deggesty]

LithoniaOperator

When I visit this forum on my iPhone 7, some posts’ text is cut off on the right. It’s worse when the phone is held vertically; but in some cases the problem exists, to a lesser extent, in horizontal mode also. Is there any remedy for this?

 

I have the same situation on my desktop--I go to the bottom and scroll over; if there are several lines in such a post, I keep scrolling back and forth. The situation seems to be caused by large pictures that extgend beyond the normal screen.

[Lithonia Operator]

The training of the engineers, by shortline crews, when the track work was not yet complete, at slow freight speeds ... this tragedy was basically pre-ordained. This is Lawyer Heaven.

[Lithonia Operator]

When I visit this forum on my iPhone 7, some posts’ text is cut off on the right. It’s worse when the phone is held vertically; but in some cases the problem exists, to a lesser extent, in horizontal mode also. Is there any remedy for this?

[243129]

BaltACD

 

rdamon

Ed,

Found a few article, one mentioned midnight runs and it looks like Tacoma rail did the initial training.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/amtrak-crews-express-concerns-about-training-on-new-route-where-train-derailed/

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article190928224.html 

Robert

 

 

Let's see - 'training' on the railroad when it wasn't the railroad that was actually going to be operated.  I suspect during the 'training' the speed limit on the entire route was 30 MPH - sounds like a good branch line speed for limited freight operations.

So the Tacoma Rail 'trainers' had never operated the line at 79 MPH, and could not do anymore than 'surmize' what it would be like to operate a train at that maximum speed.  ie. NO TRAINING at all.  Secondly the 'familiarization' runs being done 10 months in advance of actual operation.

Sounds to me like whoever set of the 'training' was unqualified to be an engineer and unqualified to specify the training necessary for safe operation of the line at it's maximum speeds.

 

I agree wholeheartedly. Poor and lack of training is the major culprit.

 

[Anonymous]

Euclid

The day after the wreck, the NTSB told us they would interview the engineer in “one or two days.”

They said a bit more IIRC: they added "if their health status allows"

And here quotes from the article you linked:

But the federal agency has been unable to interview the engineer, or the other crew member who was in the lead locomotive, because of their injuries sustained in the crash.

Peter Knudson, an NTSB spokesman, said investigators don't have an estimate as to when they'll be able to interview the engineer and the conductor. He said such a delay is not unusual when crew members are injured.

"It's really uncertain what their recovery schedule is going to be," Knudson said. "We've made our intention known."

Sim Osborn, a Seattle plaintiffs attorney who said he expected to file a lawsuit related the crash in the next few days, said the engineer would almost certainly not talk to investigators without a lawyer. End of quote

Why this impatience? Does the delay of the interviews really matter in an investigation that take one to two years? Does the engineer have to answer NTSB questions?

Here is the Preliminary Report of 01/04/2018 mentioned in the article: 
https://ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/RRD18MR001-prelim.pdf

Regards, Volker

 

[rdamon]

Quote from the article ...

“PTC systems were affordable, available, feasible and intended to improve safety,” the lawsuit filed Thursday says. “Amtrak knowingly and intentionally failed to put in place and utilize an operable PTC or similar safety control system on the Amtrak Train No. 501 and the segment of railroad track where this tragic and preventable accident occurred.”

 

I think there are a few people that would disagree with that first line.

[Euclid]

The day after the wreck, the NTSB told us they would interview the engineer in “one or two days.”  The moment I heard that, I just knew by the way they seemed to be posturing that it had to be mid-January at the earliest.  Now it appears it may never happen. 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/americas/100353253/engineer-in-fatal-amtrak-derailment-hasnt-been-interviewed-yet

 

[rdamon]

This sign was at the Lakewood Station .. looks like some sort of high speed testing was done.

 

[BaltACD]

rdamon

Ed,

Found a few article, one mentioned midnight runs and it looks like Tacoma rail did the initial training.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/amtrak-crews-express-concerns-about-training-on-new-route-where-train-derailed/

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article190928224.html 

Robert

Let's see - 'training' on the railroad when it wasn't the railroad that was actually going to be operated.  I suspect during the 'training' the speed limit on the entire route was 30 MPH - sounds like a good branch line speed for limited freight operations.

So the Tacoma Rail 'trainers' had never operated the line at 79 MPH, and could not do anymore than 'surmize' what it would be like to operate a train at that maximum speed.  ie. NO TRAINING at all.  Secondly the 'familiarization' runs being done 10 months in advance of actual operation.

Sounds to me like whoever set of the 'training' was unqualified to be an engineer and unqualified to specify the training necessary for safe operation of the line at it's maximum speeds.

[7j43k]

Thanks, Robert

 

Ed

[rdamon]

Ed,

Found a few article, one mentioned midnight runs and it looks like Tacoma rail did the initial training.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/amtrak-crews-express-concerns-about-training-on-new-route-where-train-derailed/

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/article190928224.html

 

Robert

[243129]

7j43k

 

 

 

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 

243129

An experienced qualified engineer when faced with loss of situational awareness due to distraction, fatigue etc. would be inclined to reduce speed until awareness was restored. The 501 engineer did not.

 

 

Being lost doesn't necessarily include that you know that you are lost. I realize that you have an agenda but this doesn't fit I think.
Regards, Volker

 

 

 

 

 

So, an engineer can get lost.   Not a good thing in an engineer.

And.

That engineer can also by unaware he's lost.  Which is an even worse thing in an engineer.  Because he can't try to resolve his "lostness".

 

 

Ed

 

 

 

Being unaware he is lost refers to paragraph 1. He is not qualified, lacks experience and is poorly trained/supervised.

[243129]

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 

243129

An experienced qualified engineer when faced with loss of situational awareness due to distraction, fatigue etc. would be inclined to reduce speed until awareness was restored. The 501 engineer did not.

 

 

Being lost doesn't necessarily include that you know that you are lost. I realize that you have an agenda but this doesn't fit I think.
Regards, Volker

 

You have 'cherry picked' paragraph 2. If that "doesn't fit" refer to paragraph 1.

The "agenda" I have is to try to make train travel safer.

[7j43k]

VOLKER LANDWEHR

 

 

243129

An experienced qualified engineer when faced with loss of situational awareness due to distraction, fatigue etc. would be inclined to reduce speed until awareness was restored. The 501 engineer did not.

 

 

Being lost doesn't necessarily include that you know that you are lost. I realize that you have an agenda but this doesn't fit I think.
Regards, Volker

 

 

So, an engineer can get lost.   Not a good thing in an engineer.

And.

That engineer can also by unaware he's lost.  Which is an even worse thing in an engineer.  Because he can't try to resolve his "lostness".

 

 

Ed

 

 

[Anonymous]

243129

An experienced qualified engineer when faced with loss of situational awareness due to distraction, fatigue etc. would be inclined to reduce speed until awareness was restored. The 501 engineer did not.

Being lost doesn't necessarily include that you know that you are lost. I realize that you have an agenda but this doesn't fit I think.
Regards, Volker

[7j43k]

Robert,

I think I've read here that someone stated that the familarization runs were done at night.  That was put forth as part of the not-properly-trained explanation.

Since it was more night than day when the event happened, it would seem that the training environment of night time was appropriate.  In this case.

 

Waking up early for work would seem to be a job-related attribute for railroading.

Me, I'm an artist, so I get to sleep until noon (see Father Guido Sarducci).

Ed 

[rdamon]

Interesting on the time angle Ed..

 

It was stated somewhere after the derailment that this train was added to the schedule and was earlier than the regular ones. My guess is that they did qualification and familiarization runs during off-peak hours during the day. This could mean that this is the first time this (or any) engineer had run this new remodeled route not in full daylight. This could also bring up hours of rest or quality of rest questions as well.

 

Did he have to wake up earlier?

 

Were the landmarks (other than the sign) that the engineer used to judge his position obscured in the darkness?

 

Robert

[243129]

243129

When an engineer is considered or pronounced qualified on a piece of territory he has demonstrated that he has indepth and intimate knowledge of that particular terrain. That begs the question as to who qualified this person and what are their qualifications that allow them to examine candidates for qualification?

An experienced qualified engineer when faced with loss of situational awareness due to distraction, fatigue etc. would be inclined to reduce speed until awareness was restored. The 501 engineer did not.

This was by all reports the 'inaugural' run for this service. Where was management? Usually new service is accompanied by the inevitable dog and pony show where management, politicians and sundry 'notables' gather to receive their kudos. At the very least there should have been a road foreman on board when traversing 'new' territory.

As I have stated ad nauseam this and previous disasters point to Amtrak's dangerous hiring and training procedures. They have the unknowing teaching the unknowing. This engineer will be held accountable and fired. Amtrak will emerge   once again unscathed and plod along with their hit and miss trial and error tactics in their attempt to run a railroad. There will be more disasters.

 

Due to moderator hold this post was 'buried'. I feel strongly on this subject and would like to make my post recent.

[7j43k]

blue streak 1

 19 minutes before sunrise can be duplicated but the sun angle of being near winter soltice cannot until this next december..  

 

I'm not seeing how there can be a "sun angle" when there's no sun.  It won't rise for 19 minutes.

For the next few days, the sun will be doing pretty much the same thing as it was doing on "crash day".  Winter solstice was just a few days away.  Sun timing and position changes slower at the solstices.  And it's predictable.

I certainly agree that the variables of weather would/could have a huge impact on visibilty.  But generally in a degradation of light level from a clear sky.  So if you can get the clear sky visibilty level, it only can get worse with weather mods.

 

Ed

[7j43k]

charlie hebdo

19 minutes before sunrise is not very dark.

 

 

I added my comment because Jim mentioned that visibility was 10 miles.  You can have visibility of 10 miles at midnight or noon.  What you might see will be quite different.

I have been intrigued by the light level at the time of the accident ever since someone pointed out to me my error in assuming, simply because most of the visuals of the wreck were done in daylight, that the wreck happened in daylight.  

Some days ago, I happened to be up before sunrise; and I took note of the light level approximately 19 minutes before (cloudless sky).  There was some skylight.  And it wasn't "pitch dark".  But it surely was quite dark.  And NOTHING like a sun-illuminated scene.  I could see silhouettes of shapes, but no color and no detail.

It was quite different than daylight, and the "seeing" was not great at all.

 

Ed

[Overmod]

Why lookie there, the John Hiatt being touted a couple of days ago as an ex-engineer turns out to be associated with Bremseth, which is involved in plaintiff litigation here.  Why am I not surprised (except to be further dismayed with this modern world) at his getting the spin out 'early and often'?

[zugmann]

or

 

"I drive my car on new roads!"

 

 

It's like...umm...ok....? 

[rdamon]

I like the one about having a fog horn ..

[zugmann]

Have to love the comments.   I love how people take such pride in their ignorance.  Wonder how many have ever heard of FELA?

[rdamon]

Injured conductor, passenger sue over fatal Amtrak derailment onto I-5 south of Tacoma

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/transportation/injured-conductor-sues-amtrak-over-fatal-train-derailment-onto-i-5-in-south-of-tacoma/

"Freeman, 48, has seven years of experience and had requested the daytime trip to learn the route, where he rode in the left front of the southbound locomotive, said his attorney, Anthony Petru, of Oakland, California.

“He had zero experience working on this stretch of track. He was there solely to familiarize himself,” Petru said in a phone interview."

[Falcon48]

Paul of Covington

 

Falcon48

That means that both of the engine crew members failed to see the sign. To me, at least, that suggests that both crew members were distracted by something and failed to see the sign. If so, what?

 

 

   Each other?   In the few seconds that the sign was in view, they may have been discussing instruments, controls, fishing or football.

   This is only vaguely related, but when I used to maintain mainframe computers, I came to the following conclusion:   If a problem takes one person one hour to troubleshoot and repair, it takes two people two hours to fix, and three people will never get it fixed.

 

Yes, a distraction by "each other" is certainly a possibility.  In fact, that's the reason I initially started wondering about what the in-cab recordings showed in the 5 minutes before the accident.  I've often seen the way operators on light rail and rapid transit systems perform their operating duties when another employee is in the cab. I would like to think that engineers on conventional railroads take their duties more seriously, but perhaps that's not always the case. 

On reflection, however. I realized  there could easily have been other sources of distraction that had nothing to do with interactions between the cab crew members (for example, a locomotive malfunction alarm or a radio conversation with the dispatcher).   The in-cab recordings should illuminate this, which is the reason I'm curious about what they show.  

[blue streak 1]

7j43k

And it was 19 minutes before sunrise.  You can have 10 mile visibility, and not see something 100 feet away.

 

Ed

 

The NTSB will have an almost impossible effort to duplicate the visibility conditions of the wreck.  19 minutes before sunrise can be duplicated but the sun angle of being near winter soltice cannot until this next december..  Then we have to add in the weather to duplicate that condition,  Has anyone observed or heard of any visibility tests using a charger on the route ?

McCord may have reported 10 sm visibility but temperature and dew point numbers are equally important.  When temp and dew point numbers are close together you can easily get patchy fog.

[charlie hebdo]

19 minutes before sunrise is not very dark.