243129Scroll back 16 posts for further"accusations".
Do you mean your post with your two letters? These letters I mean when I say accusations. You may know the hiring and training practices at Amtrak, I don't. I'm not an easy believer. Without additional information it remains an unproofed accusation for me.
243129Refer to the wrong way trains at Bala Cynwyd and Charlottesville then access the Frankford Junction and Chester PA tragedies and report back as to your conclusion that these are "accusations" and "jumping to conclusions". Does the term 'history' ring a bell?
History is not a proof the present. Usualy you have to learn from history. I don't know how far Amtrak implemented the according NTSB recommendations. Without knowing I wouldn't transfer findings of one accident to another one.
We do know that the Amtrak 501 was going about 50 mph too fast. We don't know why. Loss of situational awereness seems a reasonable explanation, but why?
And I agree that the engineer might have realized that he is faster than 79 mph but still not that he was going into a 30 mph curve.
Everything else going farther seems speculation to me.
You might be right, but for me the NTSB investigation will have to show.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR Miningman What is put forth here by many is that Amtrak itself was grossly incompetent in training and certification,....and you think more government investigators and fixes can be trusted and are needed? What I see here about Amtrak are accusations but no info about hiring, preoccupation, incomplete information about engineer's training on the bypass. Training on the slow freight route (before refurbishing) alone isn't a fault. I can remember that Formula 1 drivers inspected racetracks in slow vehicles to learn the course before they got into their racecars. If faster speed training was enough I don't know. So you may be right with your assumptions about Amtrak but I'll wait for the NTSB report before I jump to conclusions.
Miningman What is put forth here by many is that Amtrak itself was grossly incompetent in training and certification,....and you think more government investigators and fixes can be trusted and are needed?
What I see here about Amtrak are accusations but no info about hiring, preoccupation, incomplete information about engineer's training on the bypass. Training on the slow freight route (before refurbishing) alone isn't a fault. I can remember that Formula 1 drivers inspected racetracks in slow vehicles to learn the course before they got into their racecars. If faster speed training was enough I don't know.
So you may be right with your assumptions about Amtrak but I'll wait for the NTSB report before I jump to conclusions.
Refer to the wrong way trains at Bala Cynwyd and Charlottesville then access the Frankford Junction and Chester PA tragedies and report back as to your conclusion that these are "accusations" and "jumping to conclusions". Does the term 'history' ring a bell?
Scroll back 16 posts for further"accusations".
zugmann Euclid Yes the evolving NTSB has acquired all those trappings plus an annoyingly patronizing attitude. When the answer to every press question is “it’s way too early to tell,” it is time to get someone in there that can do the job without all the excuses. Hi pot, meet kettle. You already have your own conclusions - so why do you care what the NTSB does? I'm sure you'll think they are wrong no matter what. Pretty much your thing.
Euclid Yes the evolving NTSB has acquired all those trappings plus an annoyingly patronizing attitude. When the answer to every press question is “it’s way too early to tell,” it is time to get someone in there that can do the job without all the excuses.
Hi pot, meet kettle.
You already have your own conclusions - so why do you care what the NTSB does? I'm sure you'll think they are wrong no matter what. Pretty much your thing.
I have conclusions about the NTSB, but I have not come to any conclusion as to why the engineer failed to slow down for the curve such as forgetting about it, not watching for the warning sign, being distracted by conversation with the other person, never having realized that the curve would require slowing down, thinking the curve was farther ahead than it was, a medical issue, impairment, daydreaming, sleep disorder, etc. Most likely, we know what the engineer did, but we don’t know why he did it. Maybe somebody should ask him.
MiningmanWhat is put forth here by many is that Amtrak itself was grossly incompetent in training and certification,....and you think more government investigators and fixes can be trusted and are needed?
MiningmanYou are on the Road to Serfdom.
You allow that I laugh heartily? I'm glad we haven't developed a kind of paranoia toward our government and its agency yet.Regards, Volker
EuclidYes the evolving NTSB has acquired all those trappings plus an annoyingly patronizing attitude. When the answer to every press question is “it’s way too early to tell,” it is time to get someone in there that can do the job without all the excuses.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
7j43k"The ICC investigated the Michigan collision, and on or shortly before September 29, 1945, it issued a show cause order to the Great Northern...."
Was that the final report?
Do we know what happens between NTSB and the involved parties during the investigation? I would expect that advices or orders are given when it is urgent.Regards, Volker
MiningmanYou actually believe that a government agency has more credibility than a private firm? You think a detached non partisan investigation directed from the private sector is driven by profit motives only? A private firm would be far more driven by excellence and professionalism because their reputation is at stake and competitive forces ensure that.
Yes, I do. The Technical Inspection Agency started as a non-profit organisation. There is an obvious change to the worse since their privitization.
I can't see that they are still driven by excellence and professionalism.
I want such investigations in hands that are less influencable by involved parties.
You need politics if you want to make railroading or trucking safer. I haven't seen many safety devices that were introduced without political pressure. Being the means morecosts than the competition.
If the railroads hadn't dragged their feet with less costly alternatives than PTC than there would have been no need for PTC.
But we Germans seem to have a completely different attitude toward government agencies.Regards, Volker
On August 9, 1945, the second section of the Empire Builder rear-ended the stopped first section near Michigan, North Dakota. Thirty two people were killed.
"The ICC investigated the Michigan collision, and on or shortly before September 29, 1945, it issued a show cause order to the Great Northern...."
Fifty one days later, the investigation was apparently completed to the extent that the ICC felt comfortable taking action. Not 60 days. Not 6 months. Not 1 year.
That was over 70 years ago.
Thanks to advances in various forensic fields, there is no doubt that investigators of similar crashes can complete their investigations even faster today, and with more reliable results and in greater depth.
Ed
Paul of Covington I'm beginning to wonder why the NTSB is bothering at all with the investigation when all they need to do is read this thread to get all the answers they need.
I'm beginning to wonder why the NTSB is bothering at all with the investigation when all they need to do is read this thread to get all the answers they need.
Johnny
Overmod Euclid Just have an independent contractor do a solid investigation of the facts and determine the cause within 60 days. The problem here lies in making the NTSB more and more a politicized organization with people like Bella first at the top and then sticking their thumb in where their expertise doesn't extend. I'm beginning to see some increasingly irritating signs of compromise in this investigation, not just from the NTSB but from some other organizations that have learned some 'community organizing'
Euclid Just have an independent contractor do a solid investigation of the facts and determine the cause within 60 days.
The problem here lies in making the NTSB more and more a politicized organization with people like Bella first at the top and then sticking their thumb in where their expertise doesn't extend. I'm beginning to see some increasingly irritating signs of compromise in this investigation, not just from the NTSB but from some other organizations that have learned some 'community organizing'
Yes the evolving NTSB has acquired all those trappings plus an annoyingly patronizing attitude. When the answer to every press question is “it’s way too early to tell,” it is time to get someone in there that can do the job without all the excuses.
I wonder if we read all the e-mails they're writing to each other if we might get the answers WE need.
You are correct, the answers are here.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Volker-- "We have have the Technical Inspection Agency (TÜV) that once had a brilliant reputation. After privatization profit maximization became the priority. In the meantime their expertise is in doubt more and more. I wouldn't want a private enterprise execute such investigation. In Germany we say you can buy a consultant for everything and who pays the piper calls the tune."
You actually believe that a government agency has more credibility than a private firm? You think a detached non partisan investigation directed from the private sector is driven by profit motives only? A private firm would be far more driven by excellence and professionalism because their reputation is at stake and competitive forces ensure that.
What is put forth here by many is that Amtrak itself was grossly incompetent in training and certification,....and you think more government investigators and fixes can be trusted and are needed?
You are on the Road to Serfdom.
The good ol' appeal to emotion.
I'd rather have complete and thorough investigations. Not rush jobs to appease someone's ego on a forum.
zugmann Euclid What you say above is another reason why NTSB needs to stop acting like they have all the time in the world to bring the cause into the limelight. Lives are at stake and fate may not wait for one or two years before more lives are lost. Anyhow. How dare they not complete their investigation in a timely enough matter to satisfy your personal desires and obsessions!
Euclid What you say above is another reason why NTSB needs to stop acting like they have all the time in the world to bring the cause into the limelight. Lives are at stake and fate may not wait for one or two years before more lives are lost.
Anyhow. How dare they not complete their investigation in a timely enough matter to satisfy your personal desires and obsessions!
Anyhow???
He's saying that he's concerned that POSSIBLE footdragging in these investigations might cost lives.
I'd say that's a pretty good personal desire and obsession.
EuclidWhat you say above is another reason why NTSB needs to stop acting like they have all the time in the world to bring the cause into the limelight. Lives are at stake and fate may not wait for one or two years before more lives are lost.
Euclid 243129 I cannot stress strongly enough that the blame lies squarely in the lap of Amtrak's hiring (vetting) and training procedures. Amtrak has unqualified people teaching unqualified people. This is another reason why NTSB needs to stop acting like they have all the time in the world to bring the cause into the limelight. With all the details to keep track of in learning the route, you would think that the bad curve would have been Item Number One for both the teacher and the student.
243129 I cannot stress strongly enough that the blame lies squarely in the lap of Amtrak's hiring (vetting) and training procedures. Amtrak has unqualified people teaching unqualified people.
This is another reason why NTSB needs to stop acting like they have all the time in the world to bring the cause into the limelight. With all the details to keep track of in learning the route, you would think that the bad curve would have been Item Number One for both the teacher and the student.
I agree.
I wish to add a missive I sent in 2014(since updated) to corporate officers, politicians, numerous media outlets etc. Sadly it turned out to be prophetic.
June 24, 2014Amtrak: An accident waiting to happen.....again.I am a recently retired locomotive engineer. My career in engine service spanned the years 1963-2014. I started with the New York, New Haven and Hartford R.R. and after a series of takeovers and mergers I ended my career with Amtrak in 2014. I have experienced many different forms of railroad management techniques from five entities and I must say that Amtrak tops the list as the very worst.Amtrak is an accident waiting to happen. I loosely compare Amtrak's 1983 takeover of operations on the Northeast Corridor (NEC) to Robert Mugabe's takeover of Rhodesia. Mugabe expelled the resident farmers and intellectuals who brought prosperity and technology to the country. Amtrak took over the NEC and installed their own management team eschewing input from the resident veterans. Zimbabwe, formerly Rhodesia, continues to be in dire straits, their currency is worthless and their economy is a shambles. Amtrak is still employing the hit and miss, trial and error tactics it has utilized since inception accompanied by inept,wasteful managerial practices and to this day has still not achieved that which it is capable of. Until recently Amtrak has trundled along despite their inadequacies because their veteran workforce was there to 'bail them out'. That resource is now dwindling and it is showing in recent mishaps. That having been said it is time again to focus on Amtrak's hiring and training practices. During the past eight months Amtrak has had two major incidents,the latest with fatalities, that are a result of their hiring and training procedures coupled with grossly unqualified supervision. Since 2011 I have implored Amtrak management to review their training and hiring practices and use the knowledge and input of their dwindling veteran workforce to no avail. I have written to Chairman of the Board Carper, President Boardman, Vice Presidents of Operations Geary and Stadtler, Vice President of Transportation Phelps, Congressmen John Mica, William Shuster, Senator Charles Grassley, Robert Samuelson of the Washington Post, Brian Ross of ABC, Bill O'Reilly and others pleading with them to have Amtrak review their hiring and training procedures and listen to their seasoned veteran workforce. With the exceptions of Phelps and Stadtler I have been ignored. Phelps answered my letter to Boardman after I sent the same letter three times via registered mail return receipt requested. Stadtler patronized me with a visit to Philadelphia with those responsible for the training program where they very politely nodded their heads in faux concern at my presentation. Sensing their disinterest in what I had to say I called an end to the meeting citing that I felt it was an exercise in futility and took the next train back to New Haven.I have stated repeatedly to all who would listen, and those listed above who did not, that with the right combination of these recently trained individuals it could be a prescription for disaster, a 'perfect storm' if you will. They have ignored all warning signs of impending disasters. There was the incident in November 2013 of an inexperienced and obviously poorly trained crew wandering six miles in the wrong direction on a foreign railroad. Still Amtrak did not review it's training and qualification regimens. Then came Frankford Jct.(added 2016)As a rule I try to refrain to telling anyone that 'I told you so' but after Frankford Jct. I felt that it was appropriate to do so in an effort to demonstratively drive home the fact that Amtrak's training and hiring programs are abject failures and downright dangerous. The following is my email of May15 2015 to Vice President of Operations D.J. Stadtler who has absolutely no previous experience in railroad operations. It was ignored Mr. Stadtler:The recent tragic event in North Philadelphia will have once again brought to light the inadequacies of Amtrak's training and hiring procedures. There are folks out 'there'still who have no business operating trains. Your training and hiring procedures, for lack of a better analogy, have come back to bite you in the ass once again. I had previously attempted to effect change by stressing the value and input of your veteran but aging remaining workforce to no avail.I no longer work for Amtrak , I retired in July 2014 after 51 years in the operating department. That being said I still retain the esprit de corps instilled in me by my employer 50 plus years ago and I feel that I would like to help restore the professionalism that existed before Amtrak and it's cadre of inexperienced managers eroded that attribute. I have a template for hiring and training. Should you be interested in seriously entertaining my ideas, this time, I would be happy to impart them, once again, to you.I have attached the presentation I made to CTO Nichols in December 2013 and my correspondence to then Vice President of Operations Richard Phelps for your perusal.In one of my missives I made reference to a prescription for disaster, a 'perfect storm'if you will, which sadly seems to have come to fruition. This past week on my former home division there was another stop signal violation. The individual involved has an atrocious work record in his 3 year career as an engineer, it was the second stop signal violation in 13 months coupled with a forgotten passenger station stop (Mystic CT), overshooting others due to misjudgment, running over a derail on a track belonging to another railroad where he had no business being and sundry other miscues that were 'overlooked'. Where was supervision?Amtrak has the unknowing teaching the unknowing. If one were to check the pedigree of these so called instructors one would find that they themselves have minimal experience. All of the technology such as Positive Train Control, speed control cab signal etc. cannot preclude proper training and experience because if those systems were to fail, and they do, 90% of the present operating workforce, including supervision, would not have a clue as how to operate.I stand behind all I have stated here. I am supported by my fellow veteran railroad men. I can prove or qualify all that I have stated here and am prepared to do so. Hopefully this missive will find it's way to the proper authority and an oversight committee of experienced railroad operations employees can be established to set the proper guidelines for training personnel for railroad operations on Amtrak.
What you say above is another reason why NTSB needs to stop acting like they have all the time in the world to bring the cause into the limelight. Lives are at stake and fate may not wait for one or two years before more lives are lost.
With all the details to keep track of in learning the route, you would think that the bad curve would have been Item Number One for both the teacher and the student.
7j43k 243129 I cannot stress strongly enough that the blame lies squarely in the lap of Amtrak's hiring (vetting) and training procedures. Amtrak has unqualified people teaching unqualified people. How many more, and there will be more, accidents will it take to have Amtrak review and revamp their hiring and training procedures? Unfortunately the media is preoccupied with the buffoon in the White House and all other news is secondary so this concern is not likely to be given the publicity it so urgently deserves. The operating crews in these tragedies are victims also, victims of Amtrak's inadequate training procedures. I certainly am in no position to speak about Amtrak's choices in training. But this guy was supposedly a real engineer for a number of years, not some newly minted high school kid, under the total influence of whatever he learned during a training period. He was supposed to have learned, generally, how to operate a locomotive on a railroad. He apparently didn't. Amtrak and he are most likely both to blame. And we might throw others into the pot. Or perhaps down the embankment. Ed
243129 I cannot stress strongly enough that the blame lies squarely in the lap of Amtrak's hiring (vetting) and training procedures. Amtrak has unqualified people teaching unqualified people. How many more, and there will be more, accidents will it take to have Amtrak review and revamp their hiring and training procedures? Unfortunately the media is preoccupied with the buffoon in the White House and all other news is secondary so this concern is not likely to be given the publicity it so urgently deserves. The operating crews in these tragedies are victims also, victims of Amtrak's inadequate training procedures.
I cannot stress strongly enough that the blame lies squarely in the lap of Amtrak's hiring (vetting) and training procedures. Amtrak has unqualified people teaching unqualified people. How many more, and there will be more, accidents will it take to have Amtrak review and revamp their hiring and training procedures? Unfortunately the media is preoccupied with the buffoon in the White House and all other news is secondary so this concern is not likely to be given the publicity it so urgently deserves. The operating crews in these tragedies are victims also, victims of Amtrak's inadequate training procedures.
I certainly am in no position to speak about Amtrak's choices in training. But this guy was supposedly a real engineer for a number of years, not some newly minted high school kid, under the total influence of whatever he learned during a training period.
He was supposed to have learned, generally, how to operate a locomotive on a railroad.
He apparently didn't.
Amtrak and he are most likely both to blame. And we might throw others into the pot. Or perhaps down the embankment.
Reports I have read had him 'working' for Amtrak since 2008 and only since 2013 as an engineer. That to me does not constitute "experienced engineer".
VOLKER LANDWEHR Euclid I think they ought to privatize the public interest investigation of railroad accidents. Just have an independent contractor do a solid investigation of the facts and determine the cause within 60 days. We have have the Technical Inspection Agency (TÜV) that once had a brilliant reputation. After privatization profit maximization became the priority. In the meantime their expertise is in doubt more and more. I wouldn't want a private enterprise execute such investigation. In Germany we say you can buy a consultant for everything and who pays the piper calls the tune. And why in 60 days? It is better to have right and complete then just fast. I have no problem to wait.Regards, Volker
Euclid I think they ought to privatize the public interest investigation of railroad accidents. Just have an independent contractor do a solid investigation of the facts and determine the cause within 60 days.
We have have the Technical Inspection Agency (TÜV) that once had a brilliant reputation. After privatization profit maximization became the priority. In the meantime their expertise is in doubt more and more. I wouldn't want a private enterprise execute such investigation. In Germany we say you can buy a consultant for everything and who pays the piper calls the tune.
And why in 60 days? It is better to have right and complete then just fast. I have no problem to wait.Regards, Volker
Perhaps a compromise, then:
They don't have to finish in 60 days. The have to release their findings TO DATE every 60 days, until they are done. After all, they should know where they are as they procede. They could just share it with the rest of the citizens.
Paul of Covington Euclid The larger point is the presumed need for the accident investigation to take one to two years. Maybe they want to be sure of their work because they know that it will be subjected to nitpicking, sharpshooting and criticism by certain people.
Euclid The larger point is the presumed need for the accident investigation to take one to two years.
Maybe they want to be sure of their work because they know that it will be subjected to nitpicking, sharpshooting and criticism by certain people.
So you think they're waiting two years so no one will notice they're finally done, and so not nitpick, sharpshoot, and criticize.
Makes sense, I suppose.
EuclidI think they ought to privatize the public interest investigation of railroad accidents. Just have an independent contractor do a solid investigation of the facts and determine the cause within 60 days.
EuclidThe larger point is the presumed need for the accident investigation to take one to two years.
I note that NTSB, in the Chester case, was willing to say quite harsh things about both Amtrak management and the unions. As the saying goes: "Let the chips fall where they may."
This investigation is feeling "funny". Could be my innate crankiness has grown.
When the NTSB does it right, I am properly impressed. I recall that I also thought their report on the Midland TX crash was credible.
I am not quite sure why it should take so long to get those results, though. It would be interesting to follow an investigation from start to finish to see why. Perhaps one of the inspector generals (or is it inspectors general?) might do that and publish results.
But. If it DOES take that long, well, it just does.
EuclidJust have an independent contractor do a solid investigation of the facts and determine the cause within 60 days.
When you can find the right disinterested philosopher-kings to finance and run such an entity -- Heinlein's Fair Witnesses are only a starting approximation! -- this might be preferable to establishing a nonpolitical Government entity. The problem here lies in making the NTSB more and more a politicized organization with people like Bella first at the top and then sticking their thumb in where their expertise doesn't extend. I'm beginning to see some increasingly irritating signs of compromise in this investigation, not just from the NTSB but from some other organizations that have learned some 'community organizing' skills and are smoothly working spin and paranoia to advantage.
What is necessary is a government-funded investigatory board that holds itself to strict constitutional (small-c) standards, and sets its timetables and reporting schedules according to absolute standards. And publicizes any attempts, political or otherwise, to influence its investigations or results. That was (more or less) how I understood the 'old' National Transportation Safety Board did its business.
It should be little more difficult to set up impartial professionalism than it was in the Progressive era to build civil-service organizations independent of political whims. The trick will be to get elements of typical 'narratives' out of the process, to say nothing of the form of the ultimate reports and recommendations...
I think they ought to privatize the public interest investigation of railroad accidents. Just have an independent contractor do a solid investigation of the facts and determine the cause within 60 days. Then publish the facts and the findings. Do it right. Do it fast. No excuses.
Anyone who happens to disagree with findings can publish their own challenge.
I think that is an adequate time frame. The Amtrak Chester accident took 1.5 years. Amtrak 501 is not the only accident NTSB is investigating in rail industry. Their website shows reports on 8 accidents in 2017, 11 in 2016 and 12 in 2015.
EuclidIronically, the NTSB’s message of teaching lessons that need to be learned from accidents is being stepped on by their delay in delivering the message.
That might be but with limited personnel you can only do so much.
We are having the same problem in Germany. It is a known fact here that the investigating agency understaffed but the politicians won't increase the budget.Regards, Volker
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