charlie hebdo 243129 charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions. Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on? Only in response to your refusal to provide specifics. That pattern of refusal to generate anything beyond (hiring, now vetting), training and supervision in vague terms and then becoming insulting to any and all because they lack your stated expertise has continued to the present. That is why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage you, as BaltACD did. He is sometimes sarcastic, yes, but he also contributes detailed factual information gleaned in his 51 years of experience.
243129 charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions. Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on?
charlie hebdo The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions.
The injection of facts into a pissing contest is pointless because both principals seem to be more interested in trading sarcasms and insults than exploring solutions.
Am I correct in assuming that you were guilty of that also early on?
Only in response to your refusal to provide specifics. That pattern of refusal to generate anything beyond (hiring, now vetting), training and supervision in vague terms and then becoming insulting to any and all because they lack your stated expertise has continued to the present. That is why it is a waste of time for anyone to engage you, as BaltACD did. He is sometimes sarcastic, yes, but he also contributes detailed factual information gleaned in his 51 years of experience.
I hereby declare 243129 the Supreme WINNER of the 2018 Trains Magazine Urine Cup. My most heartfelt congratulations on this accomplishment. May you enjoy your victory in good health for many decades to come.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
It is not actually even sarcasm. Sarcasm may be the aspiration these days, but one should first learn what it is.
243129 "Vetting is when someone is hired or is promoted to a higher position. " One needs to have their 'ducks in a row' so to speak when attempting to effect an imperious attitude and inject sarcasm in to their remarks. vetting noun mass noun 1The process of carefully and critically examining something. 1.1 The process of investigating someone thoroughly, especially in order to ensure that they are suitable for a job requiring secrecy, loyalty, or trustworthiness.
"Vetting is when someone is hired or is promoted to a higher position. "
One needs to have their 'ducks in a row' so to speak when attempting to effect an imperious attitude and inject sarcasm in to their remarks.
mass noun
1The process of carefully and critically examining something.
1.1 The process of investigating someone thoroughly, especially in order to ensure that they are suitable for a job requiring secrecy, loyalty, or trustworthiness.
I should have had my 'ducks in a row' before I responded. I read it incorrectly. Mea culpa.
You should have quoted the second of BaltACD's sentences too: Vetting is when someone is hired or is promoted to a higher position. Supervision is the continuing process of testing and evaluating employee performance.
I not beeing an native English speaker I don't see a difference.Regards, Volker
Sarcasm really makes me tired. It is like society has become a sarcasm contest. I think it comes from television.
Error
Euclid As I mentioned, I think that a lack of necessary vetting of the engineer is the main cause of this catastrophe. Maybe training could have fixed the problem, but it would have been safer not to hire him. He may have a good education and be very intelligent, but he has a character flaw that allowed him to dismiss operational details and questions as though they were someone else’s responsibility. The problem is that that I don’t believe Amtrak would ever have caught this problem with their vetting process, assuming that they have one. The engineer’s issue would not be in their process. Criticizing the engineer’s character that caused this disaster would be considered unfair by the Amtrak hiring culture. They would see it as a violation of the prospective employee’s rights. So with Amtrak hiring, you are going to get this type of entitlement or empowerment invested in their new hires which allows them to have the sort of free-wheeling attitude of this engineer. That includes his right to drive the train without questioning his qualifications, just because his employer tells him he is qualified.
As I mentioned, I think that a lack of necessary vetting of the engineer is the main cause of this catastrophe. Maybe training could have fixed the problem, but it would have been safer not to hire him. He may have a good education and be very intelligent, but he has a character flaw that allowed him to dismiss operational details and questions as though they were someone else’s responsibility.
The problem is that that I don’t believe Amtrak would ever have caught this problem with their vetting process, assuming that they have one. The engineer’s issue would not be in their process. Criticizing the engineer’s character that caused this disaster would be considered unfair by the Amtrak hiring culture. They would see it as a violation of the prospective employee’s rights.
So with Amtrak hiring, you are going to get this type of entitlement or empowerment invested in their new hires which allows them to have the sort of free-wheeling attitude of this engineer. That includes his right to drive the train without questioning his qualifications, just because his employer tells him he is qualified.
I agree that Amtrak's vetting process is flawed or does not exist. However I feel that this engineer is a 'victim' also. A victim of Amtrak's ineptitude. I would assign a major portion of blame to Amtrak and a smaller portion to the engineer for knowing that he was not qualified.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD 243129 Extensive and intense. So bull and bull. Very simple. You throw "bull". I throw "bull" back. You play nice. I play nice. You just failed the forum's Vetting Process - sorry it has taken 3 years to detect you don't possess the forum attitude and actions. [/sarcasm] Vetting is when someone is hired or is promoted to a higher position. Supervision is the continuing process of testing and evaluating employee performance. It is very easy after a major incident to claim the individual should never have been hired in the first place - that is nothing more than a cop out that Supervision did not do their continuing job functions of ensuring the employee has the proper training and attitude for the job functions he is expected to perform. If a employee goes to a job that is beyond his abilities to perform successfully - that is a mistake of Supervision. If Supevision is incompetent, the work force that is supervised will also tend to be incompetent. For better or worse, Management sets the tone of what is acceptable and what isn't.
243129 BaltACD 243129 Extensive and intense. So bull and bull. Very simple. You throw "bull". I throw "bull" back. You play nice. I play nice.
BaltACD 243129 Extensive and intense. So bull and bull.
243129 Extensive and intense.
So bull and bull.
Very simple. You throw "bull". I throw "bull" back.
You play nice. I play nice.
You just failed the forum's Vetting Process - sorry it has taken 3 years to detect you don't possess the forum attitude and actions. [/sarcasm]
Vetting is when someone is hired or is promoted to a higher position. Supervision is the continuing process of testing and evaluating employee performance. It is very easy after a major incident to claim the individual should never have been hired in the first place - that is nothing more than a cop out that Supervision did not do their continuing job functions of ensuring the employee has the proper training and attitude for the job functions he is expected to perform.
If a employee goes to a job that is beyond his abilities to perform successfully - that is a mistake of Supervision. If Supevision is incompetent, the work force that is supervised will also tend to be incompetent. For better or worse, Management sets the tone of what is acceptable and what isn't.
Vetting for character issues (in my field it's called evaluating) is difficult, whatever the job. Many employers use psych evals to detect the sort of problems that might interfere with the prospective hire's ability to learn the job and continue to perform properly, even when no supervisor is looking over their shoulder. Extended interviews, siuational stress tests and various psychological tests can be used to catch traits that the new hire might successfully hide in an HR interview. The process is hardly foolproof, but adds an additional dimension to the screening.
Judging from the attitude exhibited on the transcript, it appears no such vetting process occured.
243129Extensive and intense.
CSSHEGEWISCH Sounds like it could be anything you want it to be without actually saying anything concrete.
Sounds like it could be anything you want it to be without actually saying anything concrete.
The answer that I gave is similar to the one I received from that poster when I asked about his 'time in the trenches'. Turnabout is fair play.
BaltACD 243129 This is where proper vetting comes in. What is your vetting program and how long is it?
243129 This is where proper vetting comes in.
What is your vetting program and how long is it?
Extensive and intense.
243129This is where proper vetting comes in.
BaltACD 243129 All data that pertains to the safe movement of the train is of equal importance. "Being qualified is knowing where all the proper signals and signs are and also know when they are not in place." This is accomplished through proper vetting and proper training from qualified supervision which is not readily available from Amtrak i.e. RFE Beatson. All data is of equal importance - Train Messages are the kind the hit you in the eyes. Human beings are visual beings and what the Amtrak Engineer did not see were visual warnings so maybe reading and responding to Train Messages were beyond his college educational level and prior work experience.
243129 All data that pertains to the safe movement of the train is of equal importance. "Being qualified is knowing where all the proper signals and signs are and also know when they are not in place." This is accomplished through proper vetting and proper training from qualified supervision which is not readily available from Amtrak i.e. RFE Beatson.
"Being qualified is knowing where all the proper signals and signs are and also know when they are not in place."
This is accomplished through proper vetting and proper training from qualified supervision which is not readily available from Amtrak i.e. RFE Beatson.
All data is of equal importance - Train Messages are the kind the hit you in the eyes. Human beings are visual beings and what the Amtrak Engineer did not see were visual warnings so maybe reading and responding to Train Messages were beyond his college educational level and prior work experience.
This is where proper vetting comes in.
243129All data that pertains to the safe movement of the train is of equal importance. "Being qualified is knowing where all the proper signals and signs are and also know when they are not in place." This is accomplished through proper vetting and proper training from qualified supervision which is not readily available from Amtrak i.e. RFE Beatson.
BaltACD 243129 BaltACD From the time they take in reviewing and marking up Train Messages and the questions they ask between themselves when stopping to get Train Messages from my point of employment. As well as monitoring radio communications between crews and trick Dispatchers on their territory and the questions that get asked concerning specific Train Messages. Train Messages are viewed as something 'out of the ordinary' and thus close attention must be paid to them. I don't know that a speed restriction on the Train Messages would have prevented the incident, however, we do know that he paid attention to two work zone messages that were indicated on Train Messages. Had the engineer been truly 'well qualified' and had the advance speed sign not been in place - the truly wll qualified engineer would have reported its absence to the Dispatcher so MofW could fix the situation. Being qualified is knowing where all the proper signals and signs are and also know when they are not in place.
243129 BaltACD
BaltACD
From the time they take in reviewing and marking up Train Messages and the questions they ask between themselves when stopping to get Train Messages from my point of employment. As well as monitoring radio communications between crews and trick Dispatchers on their territory and the questions that get asked concerning specific Train Messages.
Train Messages are viewed as something 'out of the ordinary' and thus close attention must be paid to them. I don't know that a speed restriction on the Train Messages would have prevented the incident, however, we do know that he paid attention to two work zone messages that were indicated on Train Messages.
Had the engineer been truly 'well qualified' and had the advance speed sign not been in place - the truly wll qualified engineer would have reported its absence to the Dispatcher so MofW could fix the situation. Being qualified is knowing where all the proper signals and signs are and also know when they are not in place.
All data that pertains to the safe movement of the train is of equal importance.
VOLKER LANDWEHRThanks. BaltACD MAYBE - the Permanent Speed Restrictions on the new territory should have been specified on Train Messages, the same as is done for Temporary Speed Restrictions. I fear that wouldn't have helped much. The engineer looked straight foreward when approaching and passing the sign, the trainee looked at it shortly but didn't recognize it. That is how I understood the Image Recorder transcript.Regards, Volker
BaltACD MAYBE - the Permanent Speed Restrictions on the new territory should have been specified on Train Messages, the same as is done for Temporary Speed Restrictions.
I fear that wouldn't have helped much. The engineer looked straight foreward when approaching and passing the sign, the trainee looked at it shortly but didn't recognize it. That is how I understood the Image Recorder transcript.Regards, Volker
Crews tend to view data that is communicated on Train Messages in a different light than they do other information that gets delivered to them. I believe the crew made contact with 'Employee in Charge' of two different work zones - one of which was not on their route. Those work zones were identified on Train Messages. So, to that extent we know they reviewed their Train Messages.
Thanks.
BaltACDMAYBE - the Permanent Speed Restrictions on the new territory should have been specified on Train Messages, the same as is done for Temporary Speed Restrictions.
VOLKER LANDWEHR On page 12 of the Onboard Image Recorder Groups's Factual report is a photo showing a yellow reflective sign at trackside. It was identified as the speed restriction warning 2 miles ahead of the curve. On the photo of the foreward looking camera it is just a yellow blot in the headlight. In daylight the sign is good readable on photos. How does the engineer see it at knight? Is it readable? .... Regards, Volker
On page 12 of the Onboard Image Recorder Groups's Factual report is a photo showing a yellow reflective sign at trackside. It was identified as the speed restriction warning 2 miles ahead of the curve.
On the photo of the foreward looking camera it is just a yellow blot in the headlight.
In daylight the sign is good readable on photos. How does the engineer see it at knight? Is it readable?
....
Regards, Volker
For a QUALIFIED engineer - The speed warning sign only needs to be seen, his being qualified mandates that he knows what the speeds on the sign are.
The yellow sign reflecting back to the locomotive - even if you can't read the specific numbers that are on it - is the notification that in 2 miles you will have to be going slower than you are currently going and you will have to apply some level of braking to reduce to that speed - whatever that speed is or is thought to be.
MAYBE - the Permanent Speed Restrictions on the new territory should have been specified on Train Messages, the same as is done for Temporary Speed Restrictions.
Electroliner 1935There is a difference between educated and smart.
Usually there is a difference between dumb and educated too.Regards, Volker
blue streak 1Why did engineer miss speed restriction ? It was stated somewhere else that visibility is restricted in a Charger ,
blue streak 1If visibility is restricted maybe at different angles than P-42s maybe engineer without running a charger before did not know how to look around restrictions to observe signage ? Not much of a possibility but something to look into.
Here are photos of the Charger and the P42._ Charger https://www.progressiverailroading.com/resources/editorial/2017/082917-Amtrak-Siemens-Charger-locomotive.jpg- P42 http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gif
The Charger has wider posts at the outside of the windows.They are required as corner post according to FRA crashworthiness standard which the P42 didn't need at that time.Regards, Volker
There is a difference between educated and smart.
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