243129And you will hear it again and again because that is the reason that these disasters occur. Nothing prevents human error completely but proper training minimizes those situations.
Nobody says that proper training is not needed. But the best training will not prevent human errors. There are other factors.
In the early 20th century American railroads new that and developed the first ATS safety systems. While German railways continued development to the present and are developing for the future. American railroads forgot about it with the demise of passenger trains, until PTC hit.Regards, Volker
243129The 'driver' was talking on the phone prior to the crash.
Not much better but different: He talked with his conductor on the train.Regards, Volker
243129 charlie hebdo I wasn't asking your opinion 243129 because we know it already. We've all heard it about 185 times already. You stock answer is like "one size fits all." You've ridden your hobby horse to death. Show me where I am wrong. You have avoided responding to my queries. You have made statements and when called on them you do not answer. For the 186th time. Proper training!
charlie hebdo I wasn't asking your opinion 243129 because we know it already. We've all heard it about 185 times already. You stock answer is like "one size fits all." You've ridden your hobby horse to death.
I wasn't asking your opinion 243129 because we know it already. We've all heard it about 185 times already. You stock answer is like "one size fits all." You've ridden your hobby horse to death.
Show me where I am wrong.
You have avoided responding to my queries. You have made statements and when called on them you do not answer.
For the 186th time. Proper training!
There is no subsititute for a QUALIFIED engineer on any train.
While qualifying as a Train Dispatcher, rode with a crew from Warwick, Ohio to Holloway, OH. Trip commenced at dusk and very shortly thereafter a pea soup thick fog setteled on the area. Territory was Dark operated with Timetable and Train Orders. We held Train Order authority to Holloway. We proceeded at track speed (30 MPH) with the Engineer keeping his head looking out and down from the side cab window (F7 locomotive). The locomotive headlight just shown into the fog and it returned a solid white sheet of blindness. The engineer with his vigil and route knowledge and what he was able to view with the light from the truck light - all road crossing were properly sounded, both those with automatic protection and those without. Train was slowed to a speed so that it could be stopped, IF the railroad crossings at grade with the NKP and PRR has signals displayed had required stopping, when the signals were viewable they authorized our train to proceed.
You can't perform this kind of operation UNLESS you KNOW your territory inside, outside, forward and backward. That is being qualified. That kind of territorial knowledge does not come from a couple of training runs - runs where it is acknowledged that the 501 engineer only Operated 2 trips North and 1 trip South at the controls of a train, that DID NOT have a Charger as the lead locomotive.
243129 is correct - Training until the trained actually know what they are doing and what they are expected to do. You know the territory by touch and feel as much or more than you know it by sight.
Passing a 12 question Physical Characteristics test does not constitute being qualified.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I wasn't asking your opinion 243129 because we know it already. We've all heard it about 185 times already. Your stock answer is like "one size fits all." You've ridden your hobby horse to death.
BaltACD VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 LZB and PTC are 'aids'. They are there to assist you not 'run' the train. They can and will fail. That is where proper training comes in. I've heard you, repeating it again and again doesn't make it more right. I was asked how DB handles such situations and I tried to answer. The problem is that there were so many human errors by American railroad personell that the PTC system ws deemed necessary. On the other hand the best training doesn't prevent human error completely. DB needed a new system because of higher speeds. For slower speeds they have PZB. To harmonize the different European systems ETCS is developed.Regards, Volker Europeans have done so well in recent years
VOLKER LANDWEHR 243129 LZB and PTC are 'aids'. They are there to assist you not 'run' the train. They can and will fail. That is where proper training comes in. I've heard you, repeating it again and again doesn't make it more right. I was asked how DB handles such situations and I tried to answer. The problem is that there were so many human errors by American railroad personell that the PTC system ws deemed necessary. On the other hand the best training doesn't prevent human error completely. DB needed a new system because of higher speeds. For slower speeds they have PZB. To harmonize the different European systems ETCS is developed.Regards, Volker
243129 LZB and PTC are 'aids'. They are there to assist you not 'run' the train. They can and will fail. That is where proper training comes in.
I've heard you, repeating it again and again doesn't make it more right.
I was asked how DB handles such situations and I tried to answer.
The problem is that there were so many human errors by American railroad personell that the PTC system ws deemed necessary. On the other hand the best training doesn't prevent human error completely.
DB needed a new system because of higher speeds. For slower speeds they have PZB. To harmonize the different European systems ETCS is developed.Regards, Volker
Europeans have done so well in recent years
The 'driver' was talking on the phone prior to the crash.
And you will hear it again and again because that is the reason that these disasters occur.
Nothing prevents human error completely but proper training minimizes those situations.
243129LZB and PTC are 'aids'. They are there to assist you not 'run' the train. They can and will fail. That is where proper training comes in.
VOLKER LANDWEHR charlie hebdo But with HSR and even conventional fast trains, even good signs and landmarks are easily overlooked. Volker Landwehr should be able to tell us what method is used on Deutsche Bahn. I'll try but I'm not too familiar with the German signaling system. What I can say is: Distance between main signals is between 2,300 ft and 4,300 ft depending on speed. An approach signal is located between two main signals in the braking distance, mostly 3,300 ft, to the following main signal and shows its aspect and when necessary a speed restriction sign. That works up to 100 mph. For faster trains LZB was developed as the distance between approach and main signal was shorter than the braking distance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienzugbeeinflussung This allows the engineer to "see" signals up to 8 miles ahead. LZB is a kind of PTC with a bit different capability.Regards, Volker
charlie hebdo But with HSR and even conventional fast trains, even good signs and landmarks are easily overlooked. Volker Landwehr should be able to tell us what method is used on Deutsche Bahn.
I'll try but I'm not too familiar with the German signaling system. What I can say is: Distance between main signals is between 2,300 ft and 4,300 ft depending on speed. An approach signal is located between two main signals in the braking distance, mostly 3,300 ft, to the following main signal and shows its aspect and when necessary a speed restriction sign. That works up to 100 mph.
For faster trains LZB was developed as the distance between approach and main signal was shorter than the braking distance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linienzugbeeinflussung
This allows the engineer to "see" signals up to 8 miles ahead.
LZB is a kind of PTC with a bit different capability.Regards, Volker
LZB and PTC are 'aids'. They are there to assist you not 'run' the train. They can and will fail. That is where proper training comes in.
charlie hebdoMy point was that navigating by landmarks "service brake application to 40 mph at the red barn" is quite imprecise and subject to total failure in the dark or with fog and other times of poor visibility. The Conrail engineer mentiontioned that mileposts might be removed by vandals. Surely there are ways to prevent this 99% of the time and to make them more legible? But with HSR and even conventional fast trains, even good signs and landmarks are easily overlooked. Volker Landwehr should be able to tell us what method is used on Deutsche Bahn.
But with HSR and even conventional fast trains, even good signs and landmarks are easily overlooked. Volker Landwehr should be able to tell us what method is used on Deutsche Bahn.
How do you think racing drivers get around the track - AT SPEED.
Ever heard a NASCAR Crew Chief tell a driver 'Just hit your marks and we'll win this race"?
Drivers, during their practice time on track work out a number of 'marks' (landmarks of one variety or another) of where to start braking, where to start their turn in to the curve, where they want to apex the curve, where they want to track out too coming off the curve. This is done for each and every trun on the track - both road coursed and oval tracks.
Drivers might have the same marks, or because of their driving technique they might have different marks. One thing drivers have insure is that their 'marks' won't move. If it is on a road course, where racing takes place in the rain and other forms of less than ideal weather - the marks selected must be visible in that weather.
One race track I competed on, painted braking markers on the left edge of the track - which was OK until it rained and the water and glare made the marks invisible - so you use multiple 'marks' to identify the points that mean something to your operation of whatever kind of vehicle you are operating.
charlie hebdoBut with HSR and even conventional fast trains, even good signs and landmarks are easily overlooked. Volker Landwehr should be able to tell us what method is used on Deutsche Bahn.
charlie hebdo BaltACD charlie hebdo 243129 Signs cannot be depended on as they can be removed by vandals. Permanent landmarks are your best source of reference. That sounds like a level of technology we had 100+ years ago. Relying on landmarks or signposts should not be the navigation/orientation tool for operating trains moving at 79 mph. So in the 21st Century world of fake news - what would be a better system? Knowing that technology fails from time to time - without prior notice. An objection easily remedied if you think about it. My point was that navigating by landmarks "service brake application to 40 mph at the red barn" is quite imprecise and subject to total failure in the dark or with fog and other times of poor visibility. The Conrail engineer mentiontioned that mileposts might be removed by vandals. Surely there are ways to prevent this 99% of the time and to make them more legible? But with HSR and even conventional fast trains, even good signs and landmarks are easily overlooked. Volker Landwehr should be able to tell us what method is used on Deutsche Bahn.
BaltACD charlie hebdo 243129 Signs cannot be depended on as they can be removed by vandals. Permanent landmarks are your best source of reference. That sounds like a level of technology we had 100+ years ago. Relying on landmarks or signposts should not be the navigation/orientation tool for operating trains moving at 79 mph. So in the 21st Century world of fake news - what would be a better system? Knowing that technology fails from time to time - without prior notice.
charlie hebdo 243129 Signs cannot be depended on as they can be removed by vandals. Permanent landmarks are your best source of reference. That sounds like a level of technology we had 100+ years ago. Relying on landmarks or signposts should not be the navigation/orientation tool for operating trains moving at 79 mph.
243129 Signs cannot be depended on as they can be removed by vandals. Permanent landmarks are your best source of reference.
That sounds like a level of technology we had 100+ years ago. Relying on landmarks or signposts should not be the navigation/orientation tool for operating trains moving at 79 mph.
So in the 21st Century world of fake news - what would be a better system? Knowing that technology fails from time to time - without prior notice.
An objection easily remedied if you think about it.
My point was that navigating by landmarks "service brake application to 40 mph at the red barn" is quite imprecise and subject to total failure in the dark or with fog and other times of poor visibility. The Conrail engineer mentiontioned that mileposts might be removed by vandals. Surely there are ways to prevent this 99% of the time and to make them more legible?
How is this, in your opinion "easily remedied"?
Once again I will say to you, it's all in the proper training.
"service brake application to 40 mph at the red barn" is quite imprecise and subject to total failure in the dark or with fog and other times of poor visibility."
How do you determine that the "red barn" example is "imprecise"? A properly trained engineer would have more than one reference point for a restriction.
In times of restricted visibility a properly trained engineer can use his ears. You can hear yourself going under or over a bridge, a siding switch, an interlocking, a tunnel, grade crossing etc.
You are supposed to know where you are and that is attained by proper training something which is virtually nonexistent on Amtrak. The unknowing are teaching the unknowing.
"But with HSR and even conventional fast trains, even good signs and landmarks are easily overlooked."
How would you know this?
Do you have a better level of technology? A properly qualified engineer, which Stephen Brown was not, would use permanent landmarks as reference points. What part of it's all in the proper training don't you get?
243129Signs cannot be depended on as they can be removed by vandals. Permanent landmarks are your best source of reference.
After the Amtrak 91 incident this was sent to Op-Ed:
New Haven Register
Malibu Times
Seattle Times
L.A. Times
Denver Post
Chicago Tribune
Chicago Sun Times
San Francisco Chronicle
Miami Herald
Senators Murphy and Blumenthal, the Federal Railroad Administration and the Surface Transportation Board.
Amtrak portrays a clear and present danger to the traveling public with their inadequate vetting and training procedures and nowhere is it more evident than in the recent rash of operator error disasters.How many more lives will be lost due to the arrogance of Amtrak management who historically have ignored input from their now dwindling veteran operations workforce? If one were to quiz today’s operations employees one would be astounded at what they don’t know.The warning signs have been there and Amtrak has paid no heed despite repeated pleas from their veteran workforce to examine and revamp their training regimen.Here are some of the warning signs Amtrak ignored:June 3, 2011 Amtrak train collides with Chicago Metra train 12 hurt.October 13, 2011 Amtrak San Joaquin collides with Coast Starlight 17 injured.November, 2013 Amtrak had a New York to Washington Regional train accept the wrong route and wander six miles in the wrong direction to the end of the line on a foreign railroad.May 12, 2015 Amtrak train 188 derails due to excessive speed 8 killed, 200 injured.April 3, 2016 Amtrak train hits company backhoe killing 2 and injuring 39July 6, 2016 Amtrak train arrives Charlottesville 1 hour and 45 minutes late after accepting wrong route towards Richmond.December 12, 2017 Amtrak Cascades train 501 derails killing 3 and injuring 77.February 4, 2018 Amtrak train #91 crashes in to standing CSX freight train killing 2 and injuring 116.All of the above are attributed to human error yet Amtrak still made no changes to it’s vetting and training procedures.The public outcry for Positive Train Control is not the be all to end all. It creates dependency and erodes what skills the engineer (operator) might possess. Positive Train Control can and will fail and a good percentage of engineers will become ‘lost’. Couple that with Amtrak’s inadequate vetting and training procedures and you have a prescription for disaster, a ‘perfect storm’ if you will.Nothing precludes proper training and Amtrak seems incapable of providing it.What will it take for Amtrak to review and assess it’s hiring and training procedures? More death and injuries?Amtrak is in dire need of oversight from experienced operations personnel. Something must be done soon or there will be more disasters.
BaltACD Seattle RFE's interview https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/61000-61499/61332/616785.pdf
Seattle RFE's interview
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/61000-61499/61332/616785.pdf
The RFE after three trips is putting together a physical characteristics test??!! GMAFB.
I am almost embarrassed for RFE Bradasich. His testimony reveals how much he does not know and makes blatantly obvious that Amtrak has the unknowing teaching the unknowing.
Jonathan Hines is incompetent and should be removed as head of the training and compliance programs.
VOLKER LANDWEHR Looks like Amtrak's RFEs took the new Point Defiance Bypass very lightly and underestimated possible problems braking to 30 mph with an unfamiliar locomotive.Regards, Volker
Looks like Amtrak's RFEs took the new Point Defiance Bypass very lightly and underestimated possible problems braking to 30 mph with an unfamiliar locomotive.Regards, Volker
They certainly did. Now we will have to wait and see if the NTSB discovers that.
Electroliner 1935
I agree with your assessments especially the one quoted below.
"Here, I think if he was as good an leader as he should have been, he should have said STOP! We need more training time."
Mr. Beatson seems to fit the adage 'jack of all trades and master of none'.
He initially states that the training is adequate and later states that it is not ergo my Trump comparison.
How many more disasters will it take to convince all that Amtrak has the unknowing teaching the unknowing?
243129 What I gleaned from the testimony reinforces the fact that we have the unknowing teaching the unknowing. Beatson talks in circles and is repetitive a la Donald Trump. His math is terrible, he cites 20 years British Railways, when in actuality he had nineteen, and held three positions of ten years each??? His qualifications are questionable as he is as ill qualified as his students. His testimony is fraught with contradictions. He cites distractions from a single qualifying conductor yet there was allowed up to eight qualifiying personnel in the cab at one time. Unless it has been changed the maximum is four people in the cab of a locomotive. He throws RFE Bradasich under the bus. Signs cannot be depended on as they can be removed by vandals. Permanent landmarks are your best source of reference. Engineers must know where they are at all times and not rely on reminders from in train personnel who can be easily distracted.
What I gleaned from the testimony reinforces the fact that we have the unknowing teaching the unknowing.
Beatson talks in circles and is repetitive a la Donald Trump. His math is terrible, he cites 20 years British Railways, when in actuality he had nineteen, and held three positions of ten years each??? His qualifications are questionable as he is as ill qualified as his students. His testimony is fraught with contradictions. He cites distractions from a single qualifying conductor yet there was allowed up to eight qualifiying personnel in the cab at one time. Unless it has been changed the maximum is four people in the cab of a locomotive.
He throws RFE Bradasich under the bus.
Signs cannot be depended on as they can be removed by vandals. Permanent landmarks are your best source of reference.
Engineers must know where they are at all times and not rely on reminders from in train personnel who can be easily distracted.
A. Yes, yes.
I found the interview quite interesting.
Johnny
After accident interview of Amtrak''s Road Foreman OJT - a number of interesting observations.
https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/61000-61499/61332/616784.pdf
BaltACD I find it interesting that at some locations conventional Passenger and Talgo have the same restrictions, at other locations they are different. What is more interesting is the the I-5 bridge restriction is 30 MPH for all. From 19.9 to 21.3 Talgo's get 42 MPH and Conventional equipment is 35 MPH. Of additional interest the speed for freight from 19.8 to 21.3 is 10 MPH.
I find it interesting that at some locations conventional Passenger and Talgo have the same restrictions, at other locations they are different. What is more interesting is the the I-5 bridge restriction is 30 MPH for all. From 19.9 to 21.3 Talgo's get 42 MPH and Conventional equipment is 35 MPH. Of additional interest the speed for freight from 19.8 to 21.3 is 10 MPH.
The speed of a Talgo train compared to a conventional train is not a fixed amount. The speed increase depends on the radius of the curve. The larger the radius the larger the speed increase.
At small radii the increase gets so small that it is not practical to post different speeds.
The Cascade Talgo trains are conventional locomotives with tilting Talgo cars. So at some point the allowed lateral acceleration for the locomotive crews might become the limiting factor.Regards, Volker
A listing of the Permanent Speed Restrictions on the Lakewood Sub
Sounder Commuter Rail TT #2 1(B). Speed—Permanent Restrictions Southward Talgo Psgr Frt MP 0.7 to MP 1.1 30 30 20 MP 1.1 to MP 2.0 35 35 20 MP 2.0 to MP 3.4 35 35 20 MP 3.4 to MP 3.8 45 45 35 MP 4.1 to MP 4.4 75 60 40 MP 6.9 to MP 7.3, MT2 60 60 40 MP 8.8 to MP 9.6, MT2 79 60 25 MP 9.6 to MP 9.9, MT2 60 55 25 MP 9.9 to MP 10.7, MT2 79 60 25 MP 14.4 to MP 14.7 79 70 40 MP 16.3 to MP 17.2 79 68 40 MP 17.2 to MP 18.5 79 75 40 MP 18.9 to MP 19.8 79 79 10 MP 19.8 to MP 19.9 30 30 10 MP 19.9 to MP 21.3 42 35 10 Northward MP 21.3 to MP 19.9 42 35 35 MP 19.9 to MP 19.8 30 30 25 MP 18.5 to MP 17.2 79 75 40 MP 17.2 to MP 16.3 79 68 40 MP 14.7 to MP 14.4 79 70 40 MP 10.7 to MP 9.9, MT2 79 60 25 MP 9.9 to MP 9.6, MT2 60 55 25 MP 9.6 to MP 8.8, MT2 79 60 25 MP 8.8 to MP 8.2, MT2 79 60 25 MP 8.2 to MP 6.9, MT179 60 30 MP 8.2 to MP 7.3, MT2 79 60 30 MP 7.3 to MP 6.9, MT2 60 60 30 MP 4.4 to MP 4.1 75 60 40 MP 3.8 to MP 3.4 45 45 35 MP 3.4 to MP 2.0 35 35 10 MP 2.0 to MP 1.1 35 35 20 MP 1.1 to MP 0.7 30 30 20
1(B). Speed—Permanent Restrictions
Southward
Talgo Psgr Frt
MP 0.7 to MP 1.1 30 30 20
MP 1.1 to MP 2.0 35 35 20
MP 2.0 to MP 3.4 35 35 20
MP 3.4 to MP 3.8 45 45 35
MP 4.1 to MP 4.4 75 60 40
MP 6.9 to MP 7.3, MT2 60 60 40
MP 8.8 to MP 9.6, MT2 79 60 25
MP 9.6 to MP 9.9, MT2 60 55 25
MP 9.9 to MP 10.7, MT2 79 60 25
MP 14.4 to MP 14.7 79 70 40
MP 16.3 to MP 17.2 79 68 40
MP 17.2 to MP 18.5 79 75 40
MP 18.9 to MP 19.8 79 79 10
MP 19.8 to MP 19.9 30 30 10
MP 19.9 to MP 21.3 42 35 10
Northward
MP 21.3 to MP 19.9 42 35 35
MP 19.9 to MP 19.8 30 30 25
MP 18.5 to MP 17.2 79 75 40
MP 17.2 to MP 16.3 79 68 40
MP 14.7 to MP 14.4 79 70 40
MP 10.7 to MP 9.9, MT2 79 60 25
MP 9.9 to MP 9.6, MT2 60 55 25
MP 9.6 to MP 8.8, MT2 79 60 25
MP 8.8 to MP 8.2, MT2 79 60 25
MP 8.2 to MP 6.9, MT179 60 30
MP 8.2 to MP 7.3, MT2 79 60 30
MP 7.3 to MP 6.9, MT2 60 60 30
MP 4.4 to MP 4.1 75 60 40
MP 3.8 to MP 3.4 45 45 35
MP 3.4 to MP 2.0 35 35 10
MP 2.0 to MP 1.1 35 35 20
MP 1.1 to MP 0.7 30 30 20
Paul of Covington Some people think rap was invented a couple of decades later than this.
When you research history - you find out that there is rearly anything 'new'. Most of what we have come to accept as 'modern inventions', had their real start back in the foggy mists of time - the idea for the 'invention' was there a long time before the equipment, materials and 101 other things came together to make the 'invention' a viable product.
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