I agree with schlimm that using a vulgar term for the Cardinal isn't helpful and comes across as sophomoric.
I rode the Cardinal only once, from Cincinnati to Washington, and I enjoyed it.
Perhaps, however, there's another side to the question of the efficacy of this train. Namely, that Senator Byrd and his train was a positive sign back in the day that Amtrak was not going to be killed, but supported instead. A different Senator from that state might not have had any interest in Amtrak at all. Instead, Byrd made sure that Amtrak got funding for this train and the system as a whole. Byrd was an Amtrak supporter; any problem with that?
Senator Byrd, like it or not, looked out for his constituents, just as he was supposed to do. If there was pork being passed around, he made sure his state got a big piece of it; he didn't invent pork and he alone couldn't end the practice. It wasn't solely his fault that Amtrak has never been given the money it needs to operate the desired type of national system that always seems to be just out of reach.
We in Ohio would be well served to have a similarly powerful Senator looking out for our Amtrak interests; instead we have no one in our delegation who cares much for trains. As a result our Amtrak service is not exactly ideal.
This railfan has no dog in this fight, but it seems to me that denigrating a respected and effective Senator and especially his efforts on Amtrak's behalf, just because one doesn't approve of one particular route, is small-minded and ungrateful.
Possibly the Cardinal has outlived its usefulness, but West Virginia is so poor, its citizens have so little, and the train passes through some of the best scenery east of the Mississippi; I would hate to see this train taken away from them.
Philly Amtrak FanI just spent a whole hour on a thread and lost it because of a computer problem (either my end or the host end) so I'll just start this thread and take it from there.
I think that problem is on the Trains server end. I've had the same experience in the past (still do) so now I copy my post before I submit it in the event there is a disruption.
As to the theme of your thread, I'll only say that you and VerMontanan seem to have issues. However, your vulgar term for the Cardinal does not aid your cause. The last time (1986) I rode the Broadway from NYC to CHI it was over 6 hours late, much of that sitting in Ohio and Indiana. It should be resumed, though on a different route.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
If one wishes to have a New York to Chicago train on the old Broadway Ltd. route, maybe the Capitol could be re equipped as a single level viewliner train an have a New York section join it at Pittsburgh, a variation of the old B&O. PRIAA suggested something on those lines with through cars. All this presupposes more rolling stock being made available. I agree that the Floridian and the Lone Star should have been retained, but one issue is that some of the lines Amtrak uses are those the freight railroads wish to downgrade. The S line through the Carolinas that the Silver Star uses is one example. This may have been a contributing factor in the Floridian's demise.
VerMontanan Comments on Philly Amtrak Fan’s latest attempt to paint himself as a victim of the past: If time is such a concern for travel between Philadelphia and Chicago, and that the Cardinal is considered so toxic that he cannot set foot on it, I am curious as to why not instead take a Northeast Regional train to Washington, DC and then the Capitol Limited to Chicago and save 6 hours travel time? After all, four days a week, he’d not be burdened with the option of the Cardinal, anyway (and even travel via New York and the Lake Shore Limited would be faster than the Cardinal on the few days it does run).
Comments on Philly Amtrak Fan’s latest attempt to paint himself as a victim of the past:
If time is such a concern for travel between Philadelphia and Chicago, and that the Cardinal is considered so toxic that he cannot set foot on it, I am curious as to why not instead take a Northeast Regional train to Washington, DC and then the Capitol Limited to Chicago and save 6 hours travel time? After all, four days a week, he’d not be burdened with the option of the Cardinal, anyway (and even travel via New York and the Lake Shore Limited would be faster than the Cardinal on the few days it does run).
In 2015 on the way to California, I rode a regional to the LSL westbound to Chicago and the CL to a regional eastbound. The eastbound CL was almost four hours late into WAS and I missed my connection into WAS after a delayed trip after being on the SWC for two days. Then I had to wait another half hour in a line with my bags to change my ticket. Still think I have no right to be PO'ed? Has it ever happened to you?
VerMontanan This statement from Philly Amtrak Fan is precious: “If the Cardinal was canceled like it should have been the Broadway Limited would still be here today…” This of course is ridiculous.
This statement from Philly Amtrak Fan is precious: “If the Cardinal was canceled like it should have been the Broadway Limited would still be here today…” This of course is ridiculous.
Is it? Without the Broadway Limited or Cardinal there would be only the LSL and CL for Chicago-NEC trains. Even though only an idiot would believe Byrd Crap is a reasonable Chicago-NEC train, can you imagine just one Chicago-NEC train? So they could have canceled the Cardinal in 1995 instead of the Broadway Limited. They could have canceled the Cardinal in 2004 instead of the Three Rivers (the mail contract was just an excuse, the Three Rivers still had higher ridership/revenue than the Cardinal). You'll say 3x/week but it makes more sense to run a daily train than run a 3x/week train which every metric says doesn't work. You cancel the Cardinal and CHI-IND still has Hoosier State service and they can run daily service using the same equipment they use now while Charlottesville-NYP still has 2 daily trains and Virginia would be motivated to pay to replace the Cardinal with a third daily train with the financial success of the Lynchburg service. So the only major market that would lose service would be Cincinnati and they currently only have graveyard shift service. Does anyone other than the 5 people who live in Thurmond WV care about service to Thurmond WV? Meanwhile, PA would still have a train to Chicago and New York would still have two dailies instead of 1 3/7 (and both would take less than 24 hrs). Plus that was before the 750 mile rule. What was stopping Amtrak from running a separate Chicago-Cincinnati train?
Why not both the Cardinal and Broadway/Three Rivers? Did Amtrak have the $/equipment for both? If Byrd was able to find extra money for the Cardinal, why not the Floridian or the Lone Star? Why was the Cardinal important enough but the Floridian not important enough? Why wasn't the Broadway in 1995 not important enough in 1995? If the Cardinal was on the chopping block, Byrd would have made sure it was saved. If you think I'm selfish, Byrd's selfish. He finds enough money for his train but not others. That's not how you run a national train system. In addition we still have a train going through Mike Mansfield territory. Coincidence? Mansfield's fingerprints are more on the North Coast Hiawatha but I don't think it's a coincidence that the Empire Builder runs through Montana either and was kept through two rounds of western cuts while the Desert Wind (the Las Vegas train) and Pioneer were cut.
This statement from Philly Amtrak Fan is precious: “If the Cardinal was canceled like it should have been the Broadway Limited would still be here today…” This of course is ridiculous. (It’s in reference to the Cardinal’s passenger miles per train mile being less than the Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star in 1977.)
The timeline was:
The Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star were discontinued in the fall of 1979.
The Cardinal was discontinued in the fall of 1981, and was reinstated as a tri-weekly train in early 1982.
The Broadway Limited was discontinued in 1995, and was replaced by the Three Rivers between New York, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh (passengers then could transfer to the Capitol Limited at Pittsburgh).
Early in 1996 through cars from New York to Chicago via Pittsburgh began operating via the Three Rivers and Capitol Limited; in late 1996, the Three Rivers was extended to Chicago, thus creating a New York-Chicago train via Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
The Three Rivers was discontinued in 2005 mostly due to a cancelation of a mail contract.
Given the myriad other changes to Amtrak routes over the years (such as the Montrealer also being discontinued in 1995 – just like the Broadway Limited – and that the Desert Wind began operating at the same time – 1979 – that the Lone Star was discontinued), it’s truly ridiculous to claim that discontinuing the Cardinal in 1977 or 1979 or 1981 would have any bearing on the Broadway Limited. Given the political football Amtrak was, especially in early years, and its chronic lack of adequate funding, there are simply too many variables to make such an outlandish claim that would stick nearly 40 years into the future. Since the Cardinal and Broadway Limited were not competitors, had the Cardinal been discontinued in 1979 there is no way of telling how the reallocation of its physical and fiscal assets would have occurred.
But the best line of all from Philly Amtrak Fan’s latest post was his last: “The decision on which trains to cancel should be based on merit not based on nepotism.” Indeed. If Philly Amtrak Fan really thinks the Broadway Limited – or any Amtrak train that once ran – should be reinstated, then logic would dictate that he should tout why that train should be running, not why he thinks another should not. True passenger train advocates do not have Philly Amtrak Fan’s selfish “Trains for me, but not for thee” attitude. If you truly believe in long distance passenger trains in the U.S., you know that there are not enough regardless the location, and you can build a case for your train based on the merits you supply. But he has done none of that.
Additionally, in reference the last line in the post, nepotism is defined: “The practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.” It’s well known that Senator Byrd was the “King of Pork” in the Senate, and there are many better words to describe his actions than nepotism! (Unless it can now be revealed railroad employees working on and supporting the Cardinal were/are Senator Byrd’s relatives….!)
Mark Meyer
Well I applaud you for starting the thread. The provided downloadable PDF files, provide great information.
Your logic seems pretty sound to me regarding the Broadway.
I don't think I discussed this at this group.
Back in the 70's, Amtrak had its first major round of cuts. I found by the beauty of the internet these reports:
The first was a "preliminary" report: https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L16827
The second was a "final" one: https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L04153
They suggested canceling several routes, mainly using passenger miles per train miles (PM/TM) as the main criteria for which routes to cancel. The preliminary report lists PM/TM for all trains in FY 1977 (Table 3-11) and then highlights some of them when discussing those to ax. The Cardinal's PM/TM in 1977 was a pathetic 60. The Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star, all who were canceled, had higher PM/TM. If the cuts were based on PM/TM, the Cardinal should have been cut and the Lone Star should still be here (actually the Lone Star should be here and the Inter-American which is actually worse should be gone). The Cardinal actually was cut but brought back because of Senator Byrd. This is fact: http://www.nytimes.com/1982/10/03/business/where-the-budget-cutters-didn-t-want-to-cut.html?pagewanted=1. If the Cardinal was canceled like it should have been the Broadway Limited would still be here today and i could still take a direct train to Chicago and get there a lot faster than I can on Byrd Crap and people in nearby Lancaster and Harrisburg can get to Chicago without having to change trains in Pittsburgh where the connecting times are lousy and so is the station. The decision on which trains to cancel should be based on merit not based on nepotism.
I was asked to start a new thread since my posts were off topic to others.
As you know, my favorite train was canceled. Amtrak has canceled other trains as well. With their budget and equipment constraints they probably had to. But considering some of the trains that run now vs. the ones that were canceled, I think Amtrak made mistakes and would have been better off canceling other trains as opposed to others.
Feel free to debate. I just spent a whole hour on a thread and lost it because of a computer problem (either my end or the host end) so I'll just start this thread and take it from there.
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