Philly Amtrak FanI have never ridden a sleeper anyway (too expensive).
Think about getting the Amtrak Guest Rewards credit card (MasterCard), and then you'll be able to do as others do and ride in comfort in those sleeping cars for free.
Philly Amtrak FanLack of sleeper cars should not be an excuse for not running an LD train. Sure, I wouldn't run a two overnight train without sleepers but one night why not?
Have you ever traveled by train overnight with a woman who is older than 30?
Women's standards of cleanliness and desire for privacy increase rapidly as they get older; they tend also to prefer dining cars to eat-at-your-seat sandwiches. Many men do, too.
Sleeping cars on overnight trains are really about decency and comfort in travel. Without them you might as well take Greyhound or, as your wife will one day ask you, "Why don't we just fly?
Well this was the pre-Chicago schedule of the Pennsylvanian so there was a shift. http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19980517n&item=0028. Whether that was mail driven or to accommodate Chicago and Ohio/Indiana I don't know:
By extending the train to Chicago they had to truncate the eastern end to Philly (unless they really wanted the train to serve New York in the graveyard shift) and the New York/New Jersey service was truncated. At that point, Pittsburgh had other two trains to Chicago (Three Rivers and Capitol Limited) and one other train to New York (Three Rivers) so the second New York train was probably more useful than the third to Chicago, especially if the third arrived in Chicago after midnight. If they wanted a daytime Ohio train, they needed the Skyline schedule and not the Pennsylvanian and the Skyline schedule worked better to extend to New York.
I think the Pennsylvanian schedule might have been chosen to avoid having to need sleepers (Palmetto for the same reason). I don't think that an overnight train should require sleepers. Currently the Night Owl does not have sleepers. For a brief time the Three Rivers did not have sleepers either. I'd rather have a sleeper less Three Rivers than have to change trains and I am sure the Amish that ride the trains from Lancaster to the West Coast would as well. I have never ridden a sleeper anyway (too expensive). In FY 2016 only 39,560 of the 382,238 riders on the LSL did so on sleepers (that's slightly more than 10%) so an overnight sleeper certainly is feasible. Lack of sleeper cars should not be an excuse for not running an LD train. Sure, I wouldn't run a two overnight train without sleepers but one night why not?
When the train was extended to Chicago, it was to handle the mail contract. No consideration was given to scheduling. When the contract was cancelled, so was the extension.
CSSHEGEWISCH As I mentioned earlier, there was a reasonably fast (18-hour) Chicago-Philadelphia day train during the Warrington presidency. It usually had two coaches and a snack-bar coach but the real reason for its existence was the 20+ express boxes and RoadRailers behind the coaches which handled the mail. Like most passenger trains on the Erie, it probably handled more passengers to and from intermediate points than from end to end.
As I mentioned earlier, there was a reasonably fast (18-hour) Chicago-Philadelphia day train during the Warrington presidency. It usually had two coaches and a snack-bar coach but the real reason for its existence was the 20+ express boxes and RoadRailers behind the coaches which handled the mail. Like most passenger trains on the Erie, it probably handled more passengers to and from intermediate points than from end to end.
You mean the extended Pennsylvanian?
http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=20000521n&item=0030
Note the starting/endpoint times (6:35am-12:26am west, 6:00am-12:52am east). Absolutely worthless for endpoint to endpoint traffic and not very useful for either end. If I lived in CLE, I'd rather leave home in the middle of the night than arrive in CHI at 12:26am (later if delayed) since if I have to be out in the middle of the night I'd rather be close to home than away from home. The only usefulness of this schedule would be between South Bend and Harrisburg with Cleveland and Pittsburgh being the biggest markets. If they had ever used the "Skyline Connection" schedule, that would have made more sense (the 1:05am out of Philly westbound would suck but you'd arrive in 30th Station close to if not before midnight).
CSSHEGEWISCH Philadelphia-Chicago is also reasonably served by the airlines, so I'm not sure how much of a market exists for end-to-end passenger rail service between these two points.
Philadelphia-Chicago is also reasonably served by the airlines, so I'm not sure how much of a market exists for end-to-end passenger rail service between these two points.
I rode the Cardinal from Chicago to Philly and it does suck. I have also gone south to DC to get the Capitol to Chicago and I have jumped on the Pennsylvanian at 30th Street and changed at Pittsburgh. The third choice is the best. The Pennsylvanian actually runs on time. The 4 hours dead time in that abandoned dungeon in Pittsburgh is grim but it is not that far from some nice retaurants. The main point is well taken that Philly which is a huge Amtrak market deserves its own fast through train to Chicago. Does Amtrak even know the word"fast". F-A-S-T!
To a great extent, if US Mail had not been removed from rail passenger operations in the late 60's - there might have been enough revenue in passenger operations for the carriers to have continued to operate at their late 60's level for several years longer before the formation of Amtrak. The US Government in the form of the Postal Service hastened the creation of Amtrak.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
With the amount of money our federal government wastes and or loses in a typical year, a decent level of rail service could be provided with no tax increases.
Deggesty And here is another inexpensive shot: I would rejoice to see passenger trains on all the routes they were on fifty-five years ago. But, I know that such will never be again.
And here is another inexpensive shot: I would rejoice to see passenger trains on all the routes they were on fifty-five years ago. But, I know that such will never be again.
Well the big difference between 55 years ago and today is back then you had private railroad companies providing passenger rail service vs. the government. If we had the level of rail service today provided by our government how high would our taxes be now?
BaltACD Talk is cheap.
Talk is cheap.
Johnny
schlimm Philly Fan: A rational Broadway would involve Amtrak's buying and rehabbing the former PRR RoW from Pittsburgh to Chicago (via Columbus) and run trains at a more competitive speed: ~100+ mph.
Philly Fan: A rational Broadway would involve Amtrak's buying and rehabbing the former PRR RoW from Pittsburgh to Chicago (via Columbus) and run trains at a more competitive speed: ~100+ mph.
There is talk about Chicago-Columbus:http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2016/12/23/columbus-chicago-passenger-rail-moves-ahead-slowly.html
There is also talk about a second Pennsylvanian frequency. So all you would need would be Columbus-Pittsburgh and there you go. One suggestion which has been discussed would be exchanging through cars between the Pennsylvanian and Capitol Limited. It would be a step up from the current situation but westbound passengers would still be stranded for four hours westbound (although in a train is still better than in a station) and eastbound the Pennsylvanian would have to wait for the Capitol Limited which would hurt passengers boarding in Pittsburgh when the CL is delayed. Having two trains from PGH to PHL/NYP would allow one train continuing from CHI and one originating from PGH.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Other tidbits from the "final report" (I'll refer to it as the "Brock Adams" report after the author, the former Secretary of Transportation):
There were several restructuring of routes suggested:
Combining the then Southwest Limited and San Francisco Zephyr into one train Chicago to Kansas City to Denver to Ogden to Los Angeles with a branch from Ogden to San Francisco (according to this 1978 schedule, http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19781029&item=0044, it looks like it actually did serve San Fran, was that true?). The Desert Wind (mentioned in the Tom Hanks movie Rain Man BTW) eventually came about from this restructuring while the Southwest Chief remained untouched so at one time CHI-LAX did have two trains. While I would like to have both trains and Vegas Amtrak service, I have ridden the Chief several times and it is faster than the Desert Wind between CHI-LAX. I do wonder if it was ever feasible to have had Kansas City-Denver service.
The Broadway Limited via Cleveland was mentioned and that certainly could have added some ridership to the route after the Ft. Wayne route was downgraded. Another reroute suggested that never came to plan was the Lake Shore Limited via Michigan but also via Canada and a "closed door". I don't know how practical that is today but All Aboard Ohio has suggested a Chicago-NEC route via Michigan now that Amtrak owns track in Michigan (it would be Chicago-Michigan-Toledo-Cleveland-Pittsburgh-Philly-New York). There were also rumors that Amtrak was considering rerouting the LSL via Michigan as well. There used to be a Lake Cities route which although a change of trains late night in Toledo to the LSL was required to get from Michigan to New York was required it was still better than the bus to train connection required now. I feel Michigan deserves a direct train to New York as much as Pennsylvania deserves a direct train to Chicago and AAO's plan would kill two birds with one stone without putting a third train on NS's line between Chicago and Cleveland.
http://www.wvculture.org/goldenseal/Fall10/byrd.html
NY Times, Oct. 1, 1979
Amtrak Hilltopper Given Last ‘All Aboard!’
WILLIAMSON, W. Va., Sept. 30 — The headlight of Amtrak Train No. 67, the two‐car Hilltopper, running late, brightened the clear track between the sidelined coal cars for the last time tonight. It will probably be the last time Mingo County sees a passenger train.
Less than 100 years ago, there were feuding Hatfields and McCoys in these southern West Virginia mountains, but there were no roads, and railroads opened up what the Tug Valley Chamber of Commerce calls “the million‐dollar coal field.” Now railroads are shutting it off again.
In addition, rural West Virginia has lost almost half its intercity bus connections in the last 10 years, more than any other state, according to the American Bus Association. More may go soon.
Wheel and deal as they might, the members of West Virginia's formidable Congressional delegation could not save the Hilltopper, whose average number of passengers varied from 15 to two, according to a Department of Transportation study.
The most formidable West Virginian of all, the Senate majority leader, Robert C. Byrd, did manage to preserve a sister train, the Cardinal, Amtrak's last train between Washington and Chicago, which serves his hometown station. Senator Byrd inserted the Cardinal's reprieve in a measure eliminating 5,000 miles of Amtrak's 27,500‐mile system, which was cleared by Congress last Thursday.
Neither train is exactly a flier in its transit of West Virginia. But the Washington‐to‐Chicago Cardinal has consistently had more riders than the Hilltopper, although it is still marginal.
That is because the Cardinal's more northern sweep across the Appalachians takes it through Charlottesville, Va., the resort of White Sulphur Springs, W. Va., Senator Byrd's home station of Beckley, and Charleston, the West Virginia capital, before it rolls on to Cincinnati and Chicago.
The Boston‐to‐Kentucky Hilltopper has had to survive on the scantier ridership at such stops as Lynchburg, Bedford, Roanoke, Christianburg and Narrows, Va. Lynchburg and Roanoke have ticket agents, but at the others, passengers had to flag down the train — no problem, really, because the Hilltopper moved v‐e‐r‐y s‐l‐o‐w‐l‐y.
Over serpentine Norfolk & Western tracks originally laid for coal hauling before 1900, the Hilltopper reached an average trans‐Appalachian speed of 37.1 miles an hour, the lowest on Amtrak's long distance system. The train was losing $200,000 a year, costing $1 for each 25 cents of revenue taken in.
Few in Washington or in the Virginia foothills of the Appalachians were interested in riding the train west to Bluefield, Welch or Williamson, W. Va., much less to the Hilltopper's destination, Catlettsburg, Ky., a rail freight hub that is 16½ twisting, creeping, hill‐topping hours by train from the nation's capital. By air, the journey takes 90 minutes.
The survival of the Hilltopper since 1977, when it replaced an even more ill-starred Norfolk‐Cincinnati train, the Mountaineer, is a modern saga of railroad politics. It almost rivals the epics in song of those mythical figures of the Appalachian rails, John Henry, “the steel driving man,” and Casey Jones, the “brave engineer.” It even has a touch of Appalachian fatalism.
Last Friday, when save-the-trains groups obtained from two Federal judges separate, last‐minute injunctions that will keep four other trains due to expire tonight on the rails at least temporarily, no one bothered to seek a reprieve for the Hilltopper.
Before railroad passenger service began collapsing in the 1960's, the Norfolk & Western ran three daily trains from Norfolk to Cincinnati over these mountain tracks — the Pocahontas, the Powhatan Arrow and the Cavalier.
“Until 1971 the N.&W. ran a quality operation with diners, sleeping cars and domed coaches,” recalls John D. Heffner, a Washington lawyer and rail historian who is a director of the National Association of Railroad Passengers, a consumer group. But the twisting, often spectacularly scenic trajectory of the Powhatan Arrow “went nowhere that many people wanted to go,” he said.
From 1971 to 1974 the N.&W. gave up passenger service, but Senator Byrd did not give up hope. When amendments to Federal rail legislation came before Congress in 1974, one of them authorized Amtrak to reopen an “experimental” route. The one chosen was that of the successful Lake Shore Limited, still running between New York and Chicago by way of Boston, Albany and Cleveland.
Senator Byrd, however, inserted language authorizing a second experiment, the Mountaineer, restoring the Norfolk-Cincinnati route on a spartan basis.
The Mountaineer, renamed the Hilltopper when its eastern terminal was changed from Norfolk to Boston in 1977, did well enough on the Boston‐Washington leg. That segment is to survive as the Night Owl.
But according to Representative Nick J. Rahall, a West Virginia Democrat who is another defender of the Hilltopper, the train's Washington‐and‐west patronage averaged only 33 passengers a trip in 1978 due to “Amtrak's inept scheduling and pathetic market development plan.” Today's manifest from Petersburg‐west listed 18 passengers in two coaches, not including 12 more aboard the private car, “My Old Kentucky Home.”
The Hilltopper's demise is going to give once more isolated towns like Williamson “an awful lot of problems,” according to Mayor Sammy Kapourales, a pharmacist here.
“The greatest hardship is that we have a lot of retired railroad people here,” the Mayor said. “Most of them don't have cars, or they are too old and sick to drive to doctors and hospitals.”
“But they've all got lifetime passes on the railroad,” he said, pausing as if to savor the irony. “And now the railroad doesn't stop here anymore.”
ROBERT WILLISONBut millions of passenger buy tickets on these trains each year. Every one has a different perception as to thier valueand thier continued existence. Only time will tell.
In 2016, Amtrak LD ridership was 4.6 million (out of 31.3 million total).
In 2015, US airlines' domestic ridership was 696.2 million.
.
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON Who killed these trains, in reality, a lack of commitment by our politicans. It's going to be the same thing that evenuatly kills the entire long distance system. Amtrak's long distance trains can't survive without long term financial commitment from the American public and the federal government. Without the commitment, the system will die one train at time till it collapses. I would suggest the primary reasons LD trains are a failure is they are inconveniently scheduled (1X/day or 3X/week), slow and unreliable as transportation and the most of the public abandoned them as a transportation option long ago. The LD ridership would be even less without a subsidy of ~20 cents per pm.
ROBERT WILLISON Who killed these trains, in reality, a lack of commitment by our politicans. It's going to be the same thing that evenuatly kills the entire long distance system. Amtrak's long distance trains can't survive without long term financial commitment from the American public and the federal government. Without the commitment, the system will die one train at time till it collapses.
I would suggest the primary reasons LD trains are a failure is they are inconveniently scheduled (1X/day or 3X/week), slow and unreliable as transportation and the most of the public abandoned them as a transportation option long ago. The LD ridership would be even less without a subsidy of ~20 cents per pm.
ROBERT WILLISONWho killed these trains, in reality, a lack of commitment by our politicans. It's going to be the same thing that evenuatly kills the entire long distance system. Amtrak's long distance trains can't survive without long term financial commitment from the American public and the federal government. Without the commitment, the system will die one train at time till it collapses.
Perhaps the Broadway Ltd wasn't killed by Amtrak but rather died on its own. Oddly the Broadway way Ltd was singled out by Amtrak to be it's first fully refurbished long distance train. In 1972, the train was refurbished, Inside and out, from the e units to the mountain series observation cars. Newer refurbished Union Pacific sleepers were added as well slumber coaches. At the time she might have been Amtrak' best long distance train, at least in terms of equipment.
The train received rebuilt heritage equipment again in 1980 as well long distance amfleet cars, all being equpited with hep.
In 1990, the train was rerouted off it's oringal route on the prr to a b&o route. Either way the train didn't serve many population centers west of Pittsburg. Even in the final recommendation report, it suggested restructuring the train west of Pittsburg via cleveland. Who killed the Broadway? Probably some bean counter who saw the opportunity to save 24 million dollar. She was bleeding cash.
The train I wish was saved was the Floridian. I rode the train Chicago to Tampa in 1974. It was slow 2 night 3 day train on a poor route. But it was one of the few north south route's Amtrak carded. Like the Broadway, it route changed because of Penn Central poor trackage. A better route would have made a difference.
Who killed these trains, in reality, a lack of commitment by our politicans. It's going to be the same thing that evenuatly kills the entire long distance system. Amtrak's long distance trains can't survive without long term financial commitment from the American public and the federal government. Without the commitment, the system will die one train at time till it collapses.
It will be 1969 all over again, some body going to ask,. " Who shot the American passenger train"? We already know the answer.
blue streak 1 2. The locomotive situation was a problem with the SDP-40s not accepted by some RRs and the F-40s came on as a quick fill in. Then not enough P-40 & P-42s were ordered due to lack of funds to replace the F-40s.
2. The locomotive situation was a problem with the SDP-40s not accepted by some RRs and the F-40s came on as a quick fill in. Then not enough P-40 & P-42s were ordered due to lack of funds to replace the F-40s.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
The railroads and Amtrak basically owe their present existance to West Virginia.
Harley O. Staggers - of Staggers Act deregulation fame and Robert Byrd were both West Virginians. Without both of them the railroad industry - both passenger and freight would look very different than it does today.
PAF: With each subsequent post, you display how incredibly ignorant you are about this topic, and your inability to comprehend the topic at hand.
I do take exception with your telling people what I think. You can and have expressed any maligned opinion you want, but you cannot speak for others. I never said I didn't have a problem with Senator Byrd's porkbarrelness, and when you say, "Meanwhile whether it's the Broadway or Desert Wind or Floridian or some other train, they lost their service. You don't have a problem with it but I do," you are insinuating I supported the discontinuance of these trains. When you clearly, and ongoingly I might add, display ignorance of history, I was merely trying to point out the "why." If I had my way, all of these trains and more would still be part of the core system, even if they had to be modified due to changes in freight infrastructure.
Your "most recent PM/TM figures from the FRA" are provided by Amtrak. Much more updated information is available at the Amtrak website. One snapshot does not give the full picture, but regardless of which train is the worst on the list, if you get rid of it, there will always be a new "worst" that is targeted, and then there will be a drumbeat to again dump the "worst" and so on until eventually there is nothing left; akin to Martin Niemoller's famed quote ending, "then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me."
I'm glad you at least seem to understand how difficult it will be to resurrect any long distance trains today, and given your lack of historical knowledge and "it's all about me" myopia, I understand your frustration. Therefore, you seem to understand that even though discontinuing the Cardinal would make you happy, it could not bring back the Broadway. So what really is the point of your postings?
Mark Meyer
Not that many years ago, Amtrak ran the "Pennsylvanian" as a Chicago-Philadelphia day train. Admittedly, it was primarily a mail & express run, but it did have a couple of Amcoaches and a snack bar.
Amtrak is a political creation and as long as that is the situation, politicians of all stripes will attempt to exert their influence on it.
I wish we had a direct train to Chicago from PA. Then I remember I probably wouldn't ride it. Sorry - being crammed in an amtube with that many people makes me shudder.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I think you've made your point, many, many times over now.
You might not have a problem with a problem with Sen. Byrd favoring West Virginia over other states when it comes to Amtrak routes but I do. Amtrak is (or is supposed to be) a national system. It is supposed to represent national interests, not the interests of West Virginia over the rest of the country. Should it represent Philly over the rest of the country? No. I will say it should represent Philly more than West Virginia because Philly as a city has about the same population as the entire state of West Virginia (for a much shorter distance in train miles) and is a much larger tourist attraction. You want to talk national parks? I'm pretty sure Independence Hall is one too. You want to talk about scenery? You forget about Horseshoe Curve because the only route that uses it now is the Pennsylvanian and no one east of Pittsburgh uses it now. The state of Pennsylvania has about 5 times the population of West Virginia, they should have better service than West Virginia. If the money used to save the Cardinal in 1982 could have been used to save another train instead with a higher PM/TM but the Cardinal got saved instead to satisfy Byrd, that is worse for America and negatively affected Amtrak's bottom line which means the rest of us are paying more tax dollars for it and have been paying more tax dollars for it the past 35 years. Meanwhile whether it's the Broadway or Desert Wind or Floridian or some other train, they lost their service. You don't have a problem with it but I do.
There are other fingerprints of Byrd on Amtrak in the past and today.
Before Amtrak, there used to be a Cincinnati Limited connecting Cincinnati to Columbus-Pittsburgh-Harrisburg-Philadelphia-New York (http://www.american-rails.com/cinn-ltd.html). It used to be attached to the Spirit of St. Louis which Amtrak did operate as the National Limited. Amtrak could have run an extra 124.9 miles between Columbus and Cincinnati and they would have connected the two cities and it would have been a faster trip from Cincinnati to the East Coast than the "Byrd" route, the George Washington (old Cardinal route). Wasted train miles, denying Cincinnati-Columbus rail travel, Cincinnati-Pittsburgh rail travel, faster Cincinnati-Philadelphia/New York rail travel ...just to keep Byrd happy.
You mention the Shenendoah. It was also on the hit list along with the Cardinal and the Lone Star, Floridian, and National Limited. Those three were canceled in 1979 while the Shenendoah lasted until 1981. It's not a coincidence the two West Virginia trains lasted an additional two years while the others didn't? I have a used Saturn I'd like to sell you. And the eastern half of the Shenendoah seems somewhat familiar. Oh that's right, it's the Capitol Limited. Yeah, cause I was stuck on it. Amtrak (Byrd) felt the need to protect the eastern half of it (which conveniently passes through West Virginia) for a new route between Pittsburgh and Washington. Instead of splitting off the Broadway Limited at Philadelphia (it was Harrisburg but eventually became Philadelphia after Port Road became unusuable). they did it at Pittsburgh which meant Wilmington and Baltimore lost their direct train to Chicago. All because God forbid Harper's Ferry lose their train service! Supposedly the Capitol Limited was meant to replace the Cardinal (at least that was what the final report to Congress said) but instead Byrd got his Capitol and his Cardinal and instead the Broadway gets canceled instead so he gets both his trains, yippee!
You ask why dwell in the past and why not push for trains now? Try asking Norfolk Southern/CSX/etc. for a new Broadway Limited route in 2017 and see how much money they will ask for. Then go to Congress and ask for that much money. The point of this thread is if we didn't cancel these trains in the past we wouldn't have to ask for them back today. The last new long distance train introduced that is still around today was the Auto Train in 1983 and before that the Capitol Limited in 1981 (which essentially replaced the Broadway). Amtrak hasn't done a good job with introducing national LD trains lately and if Trump had his way the ones we have now wouldn't be around. The real push for new train routes should be the short distance corridor variety which is more popular. Congress conveniently said via the 750 mile rule: Go ask your state. There are many states (including Pennsylvania I might add) that spend money to help fund routes to expand the Amtrak map. If the Cardinal primarily benefits West Virginia and no one else, I think West Virginia DOT should contribute to the costs of the train or Amtrak should cancel it. North Carolina contributes to the Carolinian and it serves other states too. Byrd's a genius. Get West Virginia trains and make the entire country pay for them.
BTW, here's the most recent PM/TM figures from the FRA. Guess who's dead last among LD trains! And while the Empire Builder may have the highest ridership it is in the bottom half of LD trains, well below trains like the Silver Meteor, Lake Shore Limited, or Coast Starlight. Of the three western trains, the Southwest Chief has by far the best PM/TM (most popular destination).
https://www.fra.dot.gov/eLib/details/L18308#p1_z5_gD_lRO_y2016_m8
NKP guy.....but West Virginia is so poor, its citizens have so little, and the train passes through some of the best scenery east of the Mississippi; I would hate to see this train taken away from them.
From 2012 to 2016 the Cardinal lost $83.1 million plus depreciation and interest. West Virginians would have been better off if the government had funneled this money, or at least that portion of it attributable to West Virginia, to the state’s colleges and universities to help poor West Virginians get an education, which is the best way out of poverty for most people.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
Yes, I can imagine a time when there was only one Chicago-East Coast train, as would anyone who knows the history of Amtrak: On Amtrak Day 1971, the Broadway Limited was the sole train departing Chicago for the Eastern Seaboard. There was no Lake Shore Limited in the original route plan and service on what would become the Cardinal was a Chicago-Cincinnati James Whitcomb Riley, and a Cincinnati-Newport News/Washington George Washington. The Broadway Limited originally had a Washington, DC section.
The Broadway Limited was chosen over the ex-NYC route due to better track (at the time) and the ability to combine the Chicago-Washington section with the train as far as Harrisburg (though they sometimes ran in sections). Using the Broadway Limited route also allowed consolidation of facilities between New York and Pittsburgh with the New York-Kansas City National Limited. Some claimed that what would become the Lake Shore Limited should have been the Chicago-New York train all along as ridership was artificially by New York Central service cuts in 1967 and by Penn Central thereafter all along the route (whereas the Broadway Limited retained its name and service). “Amtrak in the Heartland” by Craig Sanders chronicles the myriad things which affected all the routes between Chicago and the East Coast, and is a good read. There are so many variables with track conditions Conrail and subsequent changes when Conrail was split between CSX and NS, it remains truly ridiculous to claim that discontinuing the Cardinal in 1979 could possibly have guaranteed the chance that the Broadway Limited would be around today. And indeed, as was the case with axing the Montrealer (which had other issues, too), lack of usable equipment was an issue.
Senator Byrd found money for the Cardinal and not the Lone Star because he represented a state through which the Cardinal passed, and did not represent states along the routes of the other trains. Duh. The Hilltopper through West Virginia did die in 1979, and the Shenandoah through West Virginia succumbed in 1981, however.
The Cardinal does not stop at Thurmond to serve the 5 people who reside there; Rather, it is to serve the New River Gorge National River (i.e. National Park). Railroads have a long history of association with National Parks, and therefore providing stops to serve them are not only logical, but historical, and helps keep alive the legacy of this association. Actually, the best example of this is the Empire Builder’s stops near and at Glacier National Park, Montana. No other national park had its creation so tied to a railroad, and today Waterton-Glacier International Peace Park have North America’s greatest collection of railroad-built hotels and chalets still in use (in fact, three of these hostelries are within walking distance of stops at East Glacier Park, Essex, and West Glacier Park). That’s why over 20,000 people use the train at these stops alone during the short summer Park season (about three months).
Mike Mansfield had nothing to do with the longevity of the Empire Builder. He retired from the Senate in 1976, and was appointed as U.S. Ambassador to Japan the following year. Many thought the North Coast Limited could have survived had he still be in the senate during the Amtrak cutbacks of 1979; therefore it’s categorically untrue he could have influenced the retention of the Empire Builder when the Pioneer was discontinued in 1997. (Like the Broadway Limited and Montrealer, Amtrak’s budget and equipment problems contributed mightily to the decision to ax the Pioneer, as well as poor handling by Union Pacific; the train was also poorly patronized except in the summer.)
And again, this salient point remains: Complaining (especially when one is ignorant of facts and history) about something happening that may (well, in this case, didn’t) have any bearing on something else does nothing toward the goal of rectifying even a perceived wrong. If reinstating the Broadway Limited has merit, then pick up, and go from there. But complaining that some other train exists or the reasons why will do nothing to help reinstate such service.
This poster has only a suspicion but political decisions made in Congress and the EPA may have caused the cancellations listed.
1. 100 V-1 sleepers were originally scheduled to be purchased. However Congress somehow limited that number to 51.
3. The rebuilding of Heritage sleepers and coaches did not include the installation of retention toilets to meet EPA requirements as Amtrak expected to be able to order enough Single level cars.
4. Of course not enough or any funds to get more SLLD cars was forthcoming.Soon trains got cancelled such as the Floridian.
5. The result was Amtrak haters got part of their wish to torpedo Amtrak. That was accomplished by cancelling some trains that had better PM/TM ratios than some that were kept.
6. Now almost all trains have good passenger loads during high and shoulder seasons that are constrained by rolling stock shortages. Until Amtrak can get more rolling stock there will not be more service on present routes, restored routes, or new routes.
We would probably see much lower ridership totals now except for the funds allocated in 2009 for rebuilding Superliners and Amfleet-1s.
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