CMStPnP Deggesty When I was in college, in the mid-fifties, two of my good friends had come back from three years on active duty in the Marine Corps. In all of our conversations, they never mentioned their combat experiences. At times, they would speak of this or that experience in Korea, but never anything about combat. They will not open to civilians because they have never done the job before and to explain it all would bring back bad memories of the constraints they were under or rules they had to follow. It's not like someone implied about tooting their own horn. Many are proud of what they did and have no problem saying so but would rather have an audience that at least served in uniform so they are not asked stupid questions or can at least sympathize. Or another fear is they will run into someone highly judgemental (like you know who) who would second guess their actions publicly. They do open up to other Veterans in most cases if other Veterans take the time to ask especially if they share the same MOS. I will not discuss Veteran issues among the open public either because there is always some jackazz that jumps into the conversation and says something stupid. So any Veteran group I belong too is closed to the public and looks at proof of service before they admit new members. Can't tell you how many times I have tried to have a public discussion with a Combat Veteran and some bozo pops into the conversation and asks how many "confirmed kills" they have......."if they were a Sniper" or my personal favorite....."If it was me, I never would have done that......." All from people that never served a day in uniform. The last reason they do not discuss publicly is they do not want to be reminded of bad memories and chase personal demons all over again. So when I ask I always leave an out if they would rather not discuss. So it is nothing personal and you shouldn't take it that way. It's just that they all have been burned in their past discussions and do not want to get burned again. BTW, the reason most Combat Veterans buy guns and rifles after discharge from the service is they have been in countries where the government has fallen apart completely and they think it can happen here if it happened over there... So the gun confiscation folks will never be successful in this country unless they stop sending people to war. And now back to trains. I still have not heard of any threats made to the trains in Illinois........might be the news media I read.........who knows.
Deggesty When I was in college, in the mid-fifties, two of my good friends had come back from three years on active duty in the Marine Corps. In all of our conversations, they never mentioned their combat experiences. At times, they would speak of this or that experience in Korea, but never anything about combat.
When I was in college, in the mid-fifties, two of my good friends had come back from three years on active duty in the Marine Corps. In all of our conversations, they never mentioned their combat experiences. At times, they would speak of this or that experience in Korea, but never anything about combat.
They will not open to civilians because they have never done the job before and to explain it all would bring back bad memories of the constraints they were under or rules they had to follow. It's not like someone implied about tooting their own horn. Many are proud of what they did and have no problem saying so but would rather have an audience that at least served in uniform so they are not asked stupid questions or can at least sympathize. Or another fear is they will run into someone highly judgemental (like you know who) who would second guess their actions publicly.
They do open up to other Veterans in most cases if other Veterans take the time to ask especially if they share the same MOS. I will not discuss Veteran issues among the open public either because there is always some jackazz that jumps into the conversation and says something stupid. So any Veteran group I belong too is closed to the public and looks at proof of service before they admit new members.
Can't tell you how many times I have tried to have a public discussion with a Combat Veteran and some bozo pops into the conversation and asks how many "confirmed kills" they have......."if they were a Sniper" or my personal favorite....."If it was me, I never would have done that......." All from people that never served a day in uniform.
The last reason they do not discuss publicly is they do not want to be reminded of bad memories and chase personal demons all over again. So when I ask I always leave an out if they would rather not discuss.
So it is nothing personal and you shouldn't take it that way. It's just that they all have been burned in their past discussions and do not want to get burned again.
BTW, the reason most Combat Veterans buy guns and rifles after discharge from the service is they have been in countries where the government has fallen apart completely and they think it can happen here if it happened over there... So the gun confiscation folks will never be successful in this country unless they stop sending people to war.
And now back to trains. I still have not heard of any threats made to the trains in Illinois........might be the news media I read.........who knows.
My brother who was a control tower operator in British Guiana never talked in my presence of his work there (indeed, I did not realize until long after the War why he was there--to assist in delivered warplanes to North Africa). He did speak of some experiences he had while on liberty. My brother who was a a radar operator on a minesweep also never talked of his work; he did speak of drinking much coffee while standing watches in the night--and when he and my Air Corps broter were home after being discharged gave me many a nickel for making coffee for them..
Johnny
Deggesty
There is a mixture between combat and peacetime veterans in my family. Never had a problem hearing most of the details. Likewise on closed Veteran groups on FB....never an issue there. Only in open to the public forums. I do ask a lot of questions of GWOT Vets, including those in my extended family because the Media is just not reporting much detail on either war. World War II is a different animal my great uncle was a POW and he told some of the stories of Japanese Captivity but left the gruesome tales out because my Parents were kids at the time and he had three young kids (who later all served in Vietnam). One of my uncles was a gooney bird pilot and same deal, told stories of his encounter with Gen Patton (told him to hide his young face from the jaded Vets in back so as to not freak them out that they were being flown by a kid), the German Air Force, his favorite tale was he landed on a airfield that was still run 50% by the Nazi's to evacuate part of U.S. Army that advanced too far and ran the other 50% He said the Nazi's were too busy fighting locally to worry about the runway activity, he landed, took on his load and took off without being shot at. He said there was all sorts of shooting and artillery but nothing on the runway or at the runway activity because both sides were using it.
One my Army friends during my 1954-1956 service was A Lt. Bailey who had served some time in Korea, was in a Chinese prison camp before being exchanged, and did tell me about all his suffering under the Chinese and how he managed to survive. He was interested in what I could tell him second hand of expreriences of Jews who had survived and had talked to me about the Holocaust. But he never did discuss his actual combat, and I never asked quesions about it. He remains one of my heros.
daveklepper One my Army friends during my 1954-1956 service was A Lt. Bailey who had served some time in Korea, was in a Chinese prison camp before being exchanged, and did tell me about all his suffering under the Chinese and how he managed to survive. He was interested in what I could tell him second hand of expreriences of Jews who had survived and had talked to me about the Holocaust. But he never did discuss his actual combat, and I never asked quesions about it. He remains one of my heros.
There is a Korea Combat Vet paratrooper in my RGT FB page and he has a video (not sure if he is still alive or not) where he was describing an operation in Vietnam about the time of the Korean war where either the OSS or CIA air dropped in part of a Butterfly collection in an effort to win the heart and mind of one Ho Chi Minh....lol. Thats the stuff I am talking about that never made it into the history book that only a BTDT would know and also why I am nosy at times on folks wartime exploits. Maybe BS maybe not but damn interesting stories. I learned a lot on both Afghan and Iraq wars and never served in either. The media only gives you a very tiny and highly summarized view of what is going on. There is a lot on youtube as well with the Congressional Medal of Honor awardees telling their stories as well.
schlimm wanswheel schlimm real veterans, i.e. those who served in combat I think you have insulted the majority of all veterans who took the oath, wore the uniform and served their country. Combat veterans are highest on the continuum, of course. Clumsy wording. No insult intended. I meant to say that most of our vets (and almost ALL combat veterans) don't need to name drop and refer to their service so frequently. Heroes don't toot their own horns.
wanswheel schlimm real veterans, i.e. those who served in combat I think you have insulted the majority of all veterans who took the oath, wore the uniform and served their country. Combat veterans are highest on the continuum, of course.
schlimm real veterans, i.e. those who served in combat
I think you have insulted the majority of all veterans who took the oath, wore the uniform and served their country. Combat veterans are highest on the continuum, of course.
Clumsy wording. No insult intended. I meant to say that most of our vets (and almost ALL combat veterans) don't need to name drop and refer to their service so frequently. Heroes don't toot their own horns.
There are times when it comes in handy with expressing a point. Like when one is accused of being a far left activist, and due to the lack of literacy in the conversation, playing the veteran's card is all one has left. Of course not all veterans are conservatives, but in many discussions, it puts the flaming right to rest.
I have to say these forums seem very sensitive to labels, and some seem to have their antennae tuned for the slightest perceived aggression.
CMStPnP either the OSS or CIA air dropped in part of a Butterfly collection
either the OSS or CIA air dropped in part of a Butterfly collection
If that story is true it got novelized by Robert Saar. Excerpt:
http://www.bobsaar.com/uncleho.html
The captain wheeled and turned toward earth, carrying with him an elegant collection of American butterflies. He drifted soundlessly toward the grass huts, unseen in the black jungle below.
Ho Chi Minh waited in the Montagnard village for the lone parachutist. Like the Lepidoptera already in his own collection boxes, the original American struggle for independence inspired and fascinated him. If only he could set his own people free, as Thomas Jefferson had done for the Americans. Ho had applied for a visa to the United States, but it had been lost in the bureaucratic mess of Washington, and the butterflies, a gift for his work with the OSS, had to be flown in like a load of fresh seafood.
BLS53 schlimm wanswheel
schlimm
wanswheel
Schlimm explained his "real military guys" on a different thread as "real veterans" on this one. I just got sick of hearing it. Yes, I'm sensitive, because I didn't do enough, compared to those who did.
wanswheelSchlimm explained his "real military guys" on a different thread as "real veterans" on this one. I just got sick of hearing it. Yes, I'm sensitive, because I didn't do enough, compared to those who did.
Doesn't bother me a bit I did a lot during my 5 years, Medevac'd once, saw my roomie take a missle ignition in his face (gross), buried a small portion of the 284 that died in Gander, Newfoundland. That was just peacetime service and I do get a kick out of civilians that think peacetime service as a Infantryman is "safe". My Nephew deployed to Iraq and got the acruments but really didn't do so much. Others deployed there and didn't fire a shot from their rifle but still got a CIB. So don't worry about what someone that never served says, they are clueless how this stuff works.
I was in the IRR during the first Gulf War, I asked.....they did not want me then either as they were phasing out my 11H speciality and had enough folks in the pipeline. So what can you do?..........I tried more than once to get to the Middle East voluntarily and the Army said no (first time was MNFO duty....because they have a kick azz scuba course there...lol). At least I got to see East Berlin under Eric Honecker while in uniform, that was a little exciting.
Cold War Germany was like terrorist ridden Germany today.....anything but safe and Congress gave me the title "wartime Veteran" to reflect the danger of Terrorism I had to live through. Their choice not mine. My buddies that stayed in and went RANGER or SPECIAL FORCES are still friends with me today and many of them saw combat they view me the same as they view themselves.
CMStPnPCold War Germany was like terrorist ridden Germany today.....anything but safe
Do you have any idea of what you are saying about Germany then and now?
CMStPnPCongress gave me the title "wartime Veteran" to reflect the danger of Terrorism I had to live through.
So, were you stationed in Germany prior to 5/5/1955? Check 37-01-40.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Brian Schmidt If this thread doesn't stay on track, it will be deleted.
If this thread doesn't stay on track, it will be deleted.
So much for that......
Anyway, I have yet to see anything on how the state sponsered Amtrak trains will make out under the new budget, however Metra and the CTA seem to be fine.
http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170705/BLOGS02/170709993/inside-illinois-new-budget-and-tax-plan
"The Chicago Transit Authority and Metra their will get their normal tax subsidy.:
An "expensive model collector"
schlimmSo, were you stationed in Germany prior to 5/5/1955? Check 37-01-40.
No stationed in Germany in the 1980's.
CMStPnP schlimm So, were you stationed in Germany prior to 5/5/1955? Check 37-01-40. No stationed in Germany in the 1980's.
schlimm So, were you stationed in Germany prior to 5/5/1955? Check 37-01-40.
Your suggestion that Germany in the 1980s (when you were stationed there: "Cold War Germany was like terrorist ridden Germany today.....anything but safe") or today was/is rampant with terrorism is comically absurd and could be considered an insult to those (military or civilian) brave souls who were/are stationed in actual terrorist-ridden locales in the Mideast.
Since you were on active duty after early 1980, you have "War Veteran" status, no matter where you were stationed. It is used primarily for low-income and disabled vets pension supplements.
schlimmYour suggestion that Germany in the 1980s (when you were stationed there: "Cold War Germany was like terrorist ridden Germany today.....anything but safe") or today was/is rampant with terrorism is comically absurd and could be considered an insult to those (military or civilian) brave souls who were/are stationed in actual terrorist-ridden locales in the Mideast.
Nonsense and everyone of them would not read into the coment as you have. They would take it as it was intended. Your proving what I said earlier about civilians being aloof. Terrorism then in Germany is about what it is now and possibly slightly worse then because back then it was paid for largely by the Eastern bloc and targeted more at American servicemembers. What frame of reference do you have.....you have never lived there over any extended period of time on a base. You have never dealt with the German Police or German Home Guard during times of elevated awareness right after an incident has happened. How could you possibly have a clue here?
schlimm It is used primarily for low-income and disabled vets pension supplements.
No it is as I said it was. The service you refer to is entirely different status entirely (wartime service) and is reflected via wear of a unit patch on the left shoulder on the Army uniform. The service I refer to has to do with service year cohorts established by Congress. Long story well beyond description here, other Veterans understand it though as it is used by American Legion for membership.
This is exhibit A why Veterans would rather not discuss these issues with non-Veterans and the only reason I extended the conversation another post. Look at all the effort I am going through explaining things here to someone learning for the very first time.......not to mention the attempts at verbal abuse. Why would a combat Veteran bother? The answer is they wouldn't.
As usual, you are just making stuff up. Again.
n012944 Brian Schmidt If this thread doesn't stay on track, it will be deleted. So much for that...... Anyway, I have yet to see anything on how the state sponsered Amtrak trains will make out under the new budget, however Metra and the CTA seem to be fine. http://www.chicagobusiness.com/article/20170705/BLOGS02/170709993/inside-illinois-new-budget-and-tax-plan "The Chicago Transit Authority and Metra their will get their normal tax subsidy.:
Chicagoland with always come through relatively unscathed. As for the rest of us, we would be better off being parceled out to the surrouding states. Don't even have the money to keep the rest stops open on the Interstates down here.
Be careful what you wish for. 70% of income tax revenue and 51% of sales tax revenue in Illinois came from Cook + the othe 5 metro collar counties, as of 2014. Likely the current situation is similar. Where Illinois revenue comes from
Victrola1 There are more oblicgations to be paid than revenue coming in. Passenger rail service is likely to be one the first items cut. The courts will get involved. Do you make medicaid payments, or Amtrak payments. Do you pay bond interest, or pay Amtrak. Assume Illinois gets its fiscal house in order. Will there still be money to pay for passenger rail. If so, to where? It is doubtful there will be a Cornbelt Rocket to Moline for a long time, if at all.
There are more oblicgations to be paid than revenue coming in. Passenger rail service is likely to be one the first items cut.
The courts will get involved. Do you make medicaid payments, or Amtrak payments. Do you pay bond interest, or pay Amtrak.
Assume Illinois gets its fiscal house in order. Will there still be money to pay for passenger rail. If so, to where? It is doubtful there will be a Cornbelt Rocket to Moline for a long time, if at all.
It would be interesting to see how well the Illinois-Amtrak contracts would hold up in bankruptcy. I'm sure Amtrak would pull their trains as soon as it became doubtful that Illinois could pay. There may already be procedures for this, which didn't kick in this time.
Illinois is also in the interesting spot of being the head of the several-state custorium which purchased the Chargers. So that's another interesting point.
The OTHER interesting point, is that most of these projects IDOT has are funded largely with federal grants, so not all is necessarily lost if Illinois were to sink itself, as is has been trying to do for years with pensions, taxes and spending. Oh, and the most Governors of any state to serve jail terms.
FWIW the "Cornbelt Rocket" project is progressing...of course, it'll take a great amount of political capital to even happen, beyond the current study phase - which itself was previously shut down by the sitting governor. I'd bet the Rockford project happens first, but we'll see.
Plenty of other improvements and extensions also on existing lines. CTA Red and Yellow line extensions? METRA extensions? Tollway expansions? O'Hare and Midway improvements? The list of projects is long, and the wallet is tight.
Not to mention the fact that the CTA is getting close to a strike. Boy would that be a mess.
Honestly, the only reason they really got away with this impasse was it happened over the 4th of July weekend and transit kept on moving, when nobody much cared.
Good luck, Land of Lincoln. I'm sure he'd be facepalming, too.
CMStPnP:
As on so many other posts on other topics (for example: national income and accounting), your comments do not correspond with reality. The number of terrorist incidents now and in the 1980s - approximately 9, most carried out by the insane left-wing R.A.F. (US armed forces death toll 4)- in Germany pales in comparison with the US since 9/11. Terrorism was at an elevated level in West Germany in the 1970s - early 1980s. More US personnel were killed tragically at Ft. Hood in one incident than in that decade in Germany. I won't suggest your motivation for claiming Germany was "terror-ridden" while you were stationed there. Members can speculate.
And again you try to deflect from your false statement by attacking the speaker's knowledge. I spent several summers and one entire year living in German society in the 1980s and have made yearly visits, several as long as one year from 1995 through the present. I have numerous relatives and friends throughout Germany. I feel as safe or safer in Germany than in the US, including the period since Germany accepted about one million asylum-seekers in 2015. The biggest threat there today, though small, comes from the fringe right, anarchists and neo-Nazi types. I also have several friends who were stationed in Germany in the late 1960s - early 70s mostly (one in the early 1950s) when the threat of a Russian invasion was very real. Their impression was very different than yours.
Schlimm, I made a number of trips to Germany, starting in 1960, with the last to an Audio Engineering Society convention in 1992. After I became an Orthodox Jew, around 1970, I wore a yarmulke during my visits. I never felt any fear or anti-Semitism. I did visit the eastern part of Berlin without any problem. And of course I used public transit. I also used trains, and used public transit in Frankfort (the one in the west), Wuppertal (while there were still trams as well as the hanging monorail), Keil, Offenburg, and had railfan trips in Heidelburg, the interurban to Mannheim, Mannheim and Ludwigshaven, Dormond, Koln, Baden, and a few other cities. I am a member of the Heidelberg Post of the American Legion.
I have not been back since moving to Israel in 1996. Trinity Bottoms can tell me if it is safe for me to wear a yarmulke (with the recent immigration), should I wish to visit my post.
daveklepper Schlimm, I made a number of trips to Germany, starting in 1960, with the last to an Audio Engineering Society convention in 1992. After I became an Orthodox Jew, around 1970, I wore a yarmulke during my visits. I never felt any fear or anti-Semitism. I did visit the eastern part of Berlin without any problem. And of course I used public transit. I also used trains, and used public transit in Frankfort (the one in the west), Wuppertal (while there were still trams as well as the hanging monorail), Keil, Offenburg, and had railfan trips in Heidelburg, the interurban to Mannheim, Mannheim and Ludwigshaven, Dormond, Koln, Baden, and a few other cities. I am a member of the Heidelberg Post of the American Legion. I have not been back since moving to Israel in 1996. Trinity Bottoms can tell me if it is safe for me to wear a yarmulke (with the recent immigration), should I wish to visit my post.
Ha-ha-ha, this is going through my mind after reading the above....ha-ha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipOQmAF2c8U
schlimmMore US personnel were killed tragically at Ft. Hood in one incident than in that decade in Germany.
You lopped off more than one incident, most especially Pan Am 103 which started in Germany and where more than likely the bomb originated from (per intelligence intercepts). Because it blew up over the UK your going to assign it to the UK? So much other stuff wrong in your post, I was going to refute it all but really not worth my time. Certainly not going to count dead bodies with you. You also lopped off the Turkish Guest Worker program which is probably more significant than what has come from Syria and Germany has seen more than it's share of violence from Turks. There was a surge of folks from Iraq and Iran as well during their shared war in the 1980's. Most landed in Italy not sure how many made it to Germany.
See......you don't really know, you just think you do.
Nice try but once again you are exposed as a *.*.er. Your knowledge of most things is superficial and inaccurate. So if it makes you feel good, go ahead and claim you were in a war zone. No wonder your sandwich shop failed. But that was someone else's fault, right?
As CMStPnP draws a relative crude picture of Germany I thought I should share my view, being born and living in this country for 70 years.
Germany isn't terrorist ridden now and never was. We have had our share of terrorist attacks but much less than many of our European neighbors. The attacks came from the extreme left (RAF, 1968 - 1993), the extreme right (Munich Oktoberfest 1980), Palestinians (Munich, Olympic Games 1972), Islamistic terrorists (Berlin 2016) to name a few. From 1970 to 2016 we had about 170 killed people, with every single one to much.
At the same time we had between 17,000 and 3,000 road traffic deaths per year.
I never felt unsafe in Germany.
But as the RAF had among others the German police and the US-Army as targets, you might have felt differently, but the RAF didn't threaten the "ordinary" people.
The Turkish Guest workers have added to the crime stats, but crimes are not terrorism. In the 1980s we had about 10,000 refugees per year with a peak of 440,000 in 1992 after the Eastern Bloc opened its borders.
One last remark about Lockerbie. According to the court ruling it was a libyan bomb sent from Malta via Frankfurt to London to go on Pan Am flight 103.
I know there are different speculations/conspiracy theories saying it was a Palestinian bomb ordered by the Iran. According to the theories the bomb might have been built in Germany and brought on board in London. But here you have to ask your authorities as they identified the detonator as Libyan.
From what I understand living in self contained US Army barracks and/or relying on information in American media seldom leads to a just picture of Germany. I've lived long enough in the USA to know how limited and selected information about European countries can be.Regards, Volker
VOLKER LANDWEHR As CMStPnP draws a relative crude picture of Germany I thought I should share my view, being born and living in this country for 70 years. Germany isn't terrorist ridden now and never was. We have had our share of terrorist attacks but much less than many of our European neighbors. The attacks came from the extreme left (RAF, 1968 - 1993), the extreme right (Munich Oktoberfest 1980), Palestinians (Munich, Olympic Games 1972), Islamistic terrorists (Berlin 2016) to name a few. From 1970 to 2016 we had about 170 killed people, with every single one to much. At the same time we had between 17,000 and 3,000 road traffic deaths per year. I never felt unsafe in Germany. But as the RAF had among others the German police and the US-Army as targets, you might have felt differently, but the RAF didn't threaten the "ordinary" people. The Turkish Guest workers have added to the crime stats, but crimes are not terrorism. In the 1980s we had about 10,000 refugees per year with a peak of 440,000 in 1992 after the Eastern Bloc opened its borders. One last remark about Lockerbie. According to the court ruling it was a libyan bomb sent from Malta via Frankfurt to London to go on Pan Am flight 103. I know there are different speculations/conspiracy theories saying it was a Palestinian bomb ordered by the Iran. According to the theories the bomb might have been built in Germany and brought on board in London. But here you have to ask your authorities as they identified the detonator as Libyan. From what I understand living in self contained US Army barracks and/or relying on information in American media seldom leads to a just picture of Germany. I've lived long enough in the USA to know how limited and selected information about European countries can be.Regards, Volker
Thank you, Volker. Your 70 years of living there through many changes confirms what my relatives also have said. My friends who lived in army barracks at various periods there agree with you and my own observations. I do not feel that either Germany or the USA is a dangerous "terror ridden" nation, although we too have had numerous incidents going back in my memory to the 1960s when African-American churches were burned or firebombed with some children killed. We also have suffered through having national leaders assasinated.
My brother-in-law has been a biology researcher at the Max Planck center in Dresden with his family (wife a professor at Dresden University). They moved there from San Francisco years ago. My physicist daughter has a tenured appointment at the Forschungszentrum Jülich (Research Center in Jülich), one of the 18 Helmholtz Centers. I would not want her to live there if I felt she were in danger. Both countries feel like very safe places to me.
schlimm Be careful what you wish for. 70% of income tax revenue and 51% of sales tax revenue in Illinois came from Cook + the othe 5 metro collar counties, as of 2014. Likely the current situation is similar. Where Illinois revenue comes from
An old argument that doesn't hold weight if you live in southern IL. Interesting how the surrounding states don't have a 10 million population metro area, and seem to do just fine.
BLS53 schlimm Be careful what you wish for. 70% of income tax revenue and 51% of sales tax revenue in Illinois came from Cook + the othe 5 metro collar counties, as of 2014. Likely the current situation is similar. Where Illinois revenue comes from An old argument that doesn't hold weight if you live in southern IL. Interesting how the surrounding states don't have a 10 million population metro area, and seem to do just fine.
You may not like it, but the numbers don't lie. And other numbers show downstate gets more than it gives. If Chicago area students didn't go to SIU, EIU, WIU, ISU and UIUC in large numbers, where would those local economies be? If Springfield weren't the capital, it would be another Decatur.
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