Do people understand the horrible quality food they are selling for stiff prices on many or most Amtrak Trains. On the Cardinal I saw cold french toast slices sitting in an open tin dish waiting to be heated up for "full service" breakfast. The price for those reheated chunks of vulcanized rubber? 12.00. There are a few hundred hungry people on this train. Any vendor who actually knows how to cook or make a sandwich who cares about quality could do better if they were allowed to sell food that people want. Amtrak is a government service and you get government (think prison) food at ridiculous prices. We should at least evolve as far as Mexico or Inida and allow private Food Vendors at station stops or on board. Amtrak you have proven that you cant do the job and dont want ther job so give the space to somebody who can and does.
XOTOWER Do people understand the horrible quality food they are selling for stiff prices on many or most Amtrak Trains. On the Cardinal I saw cold french toast slices sitting in an open tin dish waiting to be heated up for "full service" breakfast. The price for those reheated chunks of vulcanized rubber? 12.00. There are a few hundred hungry people on this train. Any vendor who actually knows how to cook or make a sandwich who cares about quality could do better if they were allowed to sell food that people want. Amtrak is a government service and you get government (think prison) food at ridiculous prices. We should at least evolve as far as Mexico or Inida and allow private Food Vendors at station stops or on board. Amtrak you have proven that you cant do the job and dont want ther job so give the space to somebody who can and does.
Not really, I just ran a Bus Charter from the Milwaukee Amtrak Station to Mineral Point, WI. 22 people on board. I was turned down by one eating place as having too small a group that they would not make a profit. A few others turned me down because the group was too large and they did not want to stress their staff when we arrived and placed orders. So your opinion that ANY food vendor can pull this off is probably not 100% true.
Furthermore, having owned a $450k gross Sub shop, you have to match employee head count and food purchases to the # of customers your going to serve. On a rolling train the # of customers you can possibly serve is limited by how many people ride that train during the times you are serving food. You have to then subtract the cost of the facilities you are using (the railroad car is not free and the power it draws reduces the HP of the passenger locomotive to an extent.......unless it is a VIA rebuilt F40 unit). Additionally you have to staff and pay your employees for the entire trip each time regardless if they are working or not (in a restaurant you can let them go home when business dies down). This drives up costs considerably for the restaurant on a train option (prep on board).
As far as catering, that might work but then you have to have approved containers that keep the food hot while it is in transit from kitchen to passenger. Many Fast Food Franchises will discourage or prohibit delivery services for the reason that their product does not hold up after it is cooked and needs to be consumed shortly after.............so your fast food vendors will be limited by the cater request.
Catering would be the most profitable if the passenger were charged per head for the meal and the vendor could decide on portion and what was included. Distribution would be an issue as you would need to find a quick way to distribute at a station stop or you would have to pay your distribution team to board the train with the meals and for the time riding the train or other means of transportion while they were doing absolutely nothing (another spike in cost).
The only way I see this working ever for Amtrak is having the Amtrak train coincide it's 30-40 min rest stop with Breakfest, Lunch and Dinner and having the train cater walk the interior length of the train delivering boxed meals and then being able to detrain once complete. That is the only way I see of an outside vendor adding to their profit but not really making a profit off the service itself. The bottom line is of course that not many people ride the train and your going to need around 200-300 clients at each meal to turn a small profit.....and thats with the pause the train at the train station model. On board service your going to need more clients that will patronage to pay the costs.
BTW, in Mexico you can cook a Chicken Tamale and wrap it in foil and it would still be edible at 5:00 p.m. that same day. Good Luck trying that in the United States........the FDA or Health Department would put you behind bars.
CMStPnP XOTOWER Do people understand the horrible quality food they are selling for stiff prices on many or most Amtrak Trains. On the Cardinal I saw cold french toast slices sitting in an open tin dish waiting to be heated up for "full service" breakfast. The price for those reheated chunks of vulcanized rubber? 12.00. There are a few hundred hungry people on this train. Any vendor who actually knows how to cook or make a sandwich who cares about quality could do better if they were allowed to sell food that people want. Amtrak is a government service and you get government (think prison) food at ridiculous prices. We should at least evolve as far as Mexico or Inida and allow private Food Vendors at station stops or on board. Amtrak you have proven that you cant do the job and dont want ther job so give the space to somebody who can and does. Not really, I just ran a Bus Charter from the Milwaukee Amtrak Station to Mineral Point, WI. 22 people on board. I was turned down by one eating place as having too small a group that they would not make a profit. A few others turned me down because the group was too large and they did not want to stress their staff when we arrived and placed orders. So your opinion that ANY food vendor can pull this off is probably not 100% true. Furthermore, having owned a $450k gross Sub shop, you have to match employee head count and food purchases to the # of customers your going to serve. On a rolling train the # of customers you can possibly serve is limited by how many people ride that train during the times you are serving food. You have to then subtract the cost of the facilities you are using (the railroad car is not free and the power it draws reduces the HP of the passenger locomotive to an extent.......unless it is a VIA rebuilt F40 unit). Additionally you have to staff and pay your employees for the entire trip each time regardless if they are working or not (in a restaurant you can let them go home when business dies down). This drives up costs considerably for the restaurant on a train option (prep on board). As far as catering, that might work but then you have to have approved containers that keep the food hot while it is in transit from kitchen to passenger. Many Fast Food Franchises will discourage or prohibit delivery services for the reason that their product does not hold up after it is cooked and needs to be consumed shortly after.............so your fast food vendors will be limited by the cater request. Catering would be the most profitable if the passenger were charged per head for the meal and the vendor could decide on portion and what was included. Distribution would be an issue as you would need to find a quick way to distribute at a station stop or you would have to pay your distribution team to board the train with the meals and for the time riding the train or other means of transportion while they were doing absolutely nothing (another spike in cost). The only way I see this working ever for Amtrak is having the Amtrak train coincide it's 30-40 min rest stop with Breakfest, Lunch and Dinner and having the train cater walk the interior length of the train delivering boxed meals and then being able to detrain once complete. That is the only way I see of an outside vendor adding to their profit but not really making a profit off the service itself. The bottom line is of course that not many people ride the train and your going to need around 200-300 clients at each meal to turn a small profit.....and thats with the pause the train at the train station model. On board service your going to need more clients that will patronage to pay the costs. BTW, in Mexico you can cook a Chicken Tamale and wrap it in foil and it would still be edible at 5:00 p.m. that same day. Good Luck trying that in the United States........the FDA or Health Department would put you behind bars.
Interesting. But why can't we simply copy (with appropriate modifications) the German Rail model? Pretty good food on ICE, IC and EC trains at reasonable prices with variety. Restaurant car service and beverage seat service are both used. I have no idea how much profit or loss there is. And no one is forced to buy meals as part of their ticket, as on our LD sleepers. SNCF and Trenitalia are also good models.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I was on #48 last week, a short hop from Sandusky to Erie PA. I went back to the lounge car now substituting as a dinner for breakfasts. The atmosphere was bad. 1/2 the car was used for storage of supplies. I had a chicken breakfast sandwich. It's wasn' bad. it came with some nice fresh fruit, grapes, Orange slices and pineapples, with coffee 10 bucks. Perhaps the price was a bit high. But the crew including the chef were excellent. Answered any questions a passenger had and even offered suggestion on how to solve issues, such as changing trains and detraining. The crew had pride and a bounce in thier step.
I give the experience a b-.
XOTOWER Amtrak is a government service and you get government (think prison) food at ridiculous prices.
Yet there are tons of chain and independent restaurants that just re-heat fozen, prepackaged foodstuffs, charge high prices, and are successful. So the gov't owns no monopoly on that.
US Foods and Feesers anybody?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
How much does it cost Amtrak to pull a private car?
Have they ever thought of adding a private dining car in place of their own?
Have they ever thought of leasing their existing dining cars to private vendors?
I don't see that saving money or lowering prices, but perhaps the passengers would like the food better.
Another option would be a better selection in the cafe car with the option to take it to your seat.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Time to bring back the automat car?
http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/22/news/japan-vending-machines/index.html
XOTower, Regarding your comment concerning Amtrak food = prison food: at least in prison the inmates don't have to pay for their food. At least I don't think they do. If I don't hurry up and pay the speeding ticket I got the other week I may find out.
While I can't say that all meals I've had on Amtrak were bad, I'd be hard pressed to think of a really good one except for a piece of catfish I was served once a number of years ago that was probably the best I've ever eaten. Overall the food on Amtrak is pretty dismal. Long distance trips I usually travel by sleeper using Guest Reward points so no charge for the meals (of course this doesn't make them any better but it does make them go down a little easier) and on shorter trips I usually bring my own food in order to have something healthy.
Phoebe Vet How much does it cost Amtrak to pull a private car? Have they ever thought of adding a private dining car in place of their own? Have they ever thought of leasing their existing dining cars to private vendors? I don't see that saving money or lowering prices, but perhaps the passengers would like the food better. Another option would be a better selection in the cafe car with the option to take it to your seat.
Phoebe Vet seems to be going in the direction of a pretty good idea!
And in that direction, might AMTRAK be able to take their dining car experience to another level?
The VA ( Vetern's Admin ) has announced at our local hospital they are going to be opening up a 'full service' Starbucks, in the hospital. Supposed to be in place within a year(?). WE were advised it was a 'nationwide' deal(?). Not sure how it will work, currently the Hospital Canteen is a function of a VA in-house operator(?). Some here are following it with interest.
Might not AMTRAK cut a deal with a national food chain ( Micky D's, Arbees, Taco Bell,etc)? Let the 'new provider' pony up to refit an existing car of AMTRAK'S or even build, and supply one of their own on long distance routes. Could 'wrap the car', and advertise the new services! See Ed (MP173), I'm trying to drum up some business for you her, South of the border...
Personally, my experiences with AMTRAK dining has been pretty good, it was OK, a littly pricey, but I was expecting that to be part of the experience... The experience was made all the better by the employees who worked in the dining car...No complaints here about that.
Phoebe Vet How much does it cost Amtrak to pull a private car? Have they ever thought of adding a private dining car in place of their own?
Didn't Ed Ellis have a similar thought process........where is his Pullman company today?
schlimmInteresting. But why can't we simply copy (with appropriate modifications) the German Rail model? Pretty good food on ICE, IC and EC trains at reasonable prices with variety. Restaurant car service and beverage seat service are both used. I have no idea how much profit or loss there is. And no one is forced to buy meals as part of their ticket, as on our LD sleepers. SNCF and Trenitalia are also good models.
I think we can copy that catering model if they allow the airport caterers to supply passenger trains as well. No issues there, they would add market and add to their existing profits.
I don't necessarily agree that Amtrak has enough mass outside of the NEC to support a nationwide catering company. So in my view it would probably need to be LSG SkyChefs or some similar firm that already served a major airport.
samfp1943Might not AMTRAK cut a deal with a national food chain ( Micky D's, Arbees, Taco Bell,etc)? Let the 'new provider' pony up to refit an existing car of AMTRAK'S or even build,
Each one of those firms serve more than a few hundred people at one location. In fact people drive for a few miles to eat at one of those fast foot restaurants once they are established. On a train, especially long distance your headcount is limited per day. Even with automation and micowaves (for reheating what was cooked during the day) most McDonalds need a minimum of 3-4 people to operate the graveyard shift. Do the math on their salaries since they are riding the train wether they are working or not, current labor laws which say 2 breaks plus lunch for each 8 hour shift, then throw in costs of food, the railroad car, etc. etc. You'll be broke in less than a month if you attempt this on a LD train and thats if the railroad allows you to defer the maintence that long on the railroad car.
The biggest thing with fast food places that nobody understands in this forum is some employees work 3 hours a day, some 4, some 5-6 and some 8-10. Thats how they keep costs low because of flexible staffing at a specific location. During a shift your employees on staff can flex from 2 to 6 or more. You only have to pay them when they are behind the counter. You can also call them in at the last min if your sales forecast was off and your doing better than you expected. On a train, once it leaves the station.......your stuck with whomever you have on board which could be a huge surplus of employees or a huge shortage. Rarely will it be right on the mark because you have almost no real clue how many riders want to eat or are riding the train that day.........so you will probably overstaff to keep everyone happy and lose your shirt financially when few people eat.
You don't have flexible staffing on a train because it is moving. Thats a large fixed labor cost right there a railroad car has over catering. Further passengers are fickle in what they order they all will not order a full sized meal each sitting..........especially if they have been sitting all day on a train. So your meal checks will vary all over the place depending on how the passengers appetite is.
BTW, just for the purposes of discussion here are the costs for one week serving maybe 150-200 people a day with subs.
Food costs: $4500 a week, you buy the food tax exempt and at a discount to what you would pay in a supermarket so because of the sales tax exemption you have to watch it like liquor.......especially the comps. Employees carrying food off site is a problem unless it is accounted for.
Labor costs: 4 employees at average $8.25-$8.50 an hour. Good luck with min wage, btw. You will never retain anyone, especially HS kids or recent HS grads at less than $8 an hour in a metro area. The kids are too smart for that. Also you need to include here $4000 a year for insurance to cover the employees which includes workmens comp. You don't have to pay for holidays because none of them will work 40 hours a week 5 days a week by their own choice (yes they are that shortsighted, they won't buy into a 401(k) match either). One of the 4 has to be a manager full trained in food service and food handling and he needs to be working at all times your serving food so for him possibly $9.50 to $11 an hour depending on market. Health Insurance is subsidized by the Franchisor and any unsubsidized cost is paid for by the employee........you don't pay employee health care if your franchised in most cases.
Railroad car costs: No clue and I am sure most will grossly underestimate here to make their models work. Expensive to operate a rail passenger car, even more so one with a kitchen. With a stioneory kitchen it is mandatory across the United States that you provide a hand washing sink in the serving area, also mandatory you provide for food storage (dry storage & refrigerated storage). Also mandatory you have a second three compartment sink for dish or utensil washing (unless you use all disposable). Not sure what the spec is for railroad cars but it should be similar. Your going to need quite a bit of electricity.
Misc Costs: Royalties to Franchisor, Participation in any profits to a specific level, branding, menus, promotions (yeah you need to pay for the promotions), etc.
Misc Crew Costs: Employee break area? Employee sleeping arrangements on Long distance?
Phoebe Vet Have they ever thought of adding a private dining car in place of their own?
I can't think of very many better ways for a private investor to turn a large fortune into a very small fortune. There are other issues, such as sufficient safety training for staff in the environment of a moving train, legal liability, the ever-intrusive mandates from Congress, etc.
As for using a franchise, it was tried. If memory serves, it may have been Burger King, but I'm not sure. I understand they couldn't keep staff at their pay scales, and the logistical problems made the whole thing unworkable. I wasn't involved, so I'm not the person to provide details.
But we've been over this territory before, over and over again. How many times must we beat this poor old horse to death before we declare it killed?
Tom
ACY Phoebe Vet Have they ever thought of adding a private dining car in place of their own? I can't think of very many better ways for a private investor to turn a large fortune into a very small fortune. There are other issues, such as sufficient safety training for staff in the environment of a moving train, legal liability, the ever-intrusive mandates from Congress, etc. As for using a franchise, it was tried. If memory serves, it may have been Burger King, but I'm not sure. I understand they couldn't keep staff at their pay scales, and the logistical problems made the whole thing unworkable. I wasn't involved, so I'm not the person to provide details. But we've been over this territory before, over and over again. How many times must we beat this poor old horse to death before we declare it killed? Tom
Johnny
That poor horse! Anyway, in the U.K. and parts of Europe that I've been in, you can buy food from any number of vendors and most stations (in larger cities) will have a pub or a sit-down restaurant or even several as is the case of London's stations. Even in small towns in Germany there's often a restaurant or at least a lunch counter. In Munich, if you want a quick bite, just go to the Hauptbahnhof. I think that if more Amtrak stations were in the center of a town where you'd get walk-through traffic, some food vendors would do OK, I think.
Agreed. The franchise idea is a non-starter. That said, changes could be made to improve the food experience on longer runs. Fine dining is not needed, just something comparable to a chain restaurant (many possibilities).
54light15Even in small towns in Germany there's often a restaurant or at least a lunch counter. In Munich, if you want a quick bite, just go to the Hauptbahnhof.
In small towns, you cqn get take out sandwich-type fare at the station. The Munich (a large city) Hauptbahnhof has many places to eat inside. Ditto in Hamburg, Dresden, Leipzig, Mainz, etc.
schlimm 54light15 Even in small towns in Germany there's often a restaurant or at least a lunch counter. In Munich, if you want a quick bite, just go to the Hauptbahnhof. In small towns, you cqn get take out sandwich-type fare at the station. The Munich (a large city) Hauptbahnhof has many places to eat inside. Ditto in Hamburg, Dresden, Leipzig, Mainz, etc.
54light15 Even in small towns in Germany there's often a restaurant or at least a lunch counter. In Munich, if you want a quick bite, just go to the Hauptbahnhof.
I have no experience with European trains, but I understand that's true. In Europe, train fequency is far greater than here, even in the smaller towns. That means a food seller can justify his presence near the railroad station because he has enough volume to stay in business. In this country, the larger terminals such as Chicago, D.C., etc. have large food courts with a lot of options because there are enough potential passengers to justify it. If there aren't the people, then no food seller will stay in business in the neighborhood of the station, no matter whether he's selling simple hot dogs or tacos, or full multi-course gourmet meals. Only an idiot hangs out his shingle where there isn't sufficient potential business.
In this country, you are fortunate indeed if you happen to board or detrain at a small town railroad station where there is a nice restaurant, convenience store, or other source of food nearby. If that happens, it's because the proprietor is confident that he has enough non-Amtrak customers to allow him to stay in business. It's not because he expects Amtrak patrons alone to keep him afloat.
ACY ....small town railroad station where there is a nice restaurant, convenience store, or other source of food nearby..... it's because the proprietor is confident that he has enough non-Amtrak customers to allow him to stay in business. It's not because he expects Amtrak patrons alone to keep him afloat. Tom
True. The only station in Texas that has any food service in the station, other than vending machines, I believe, is the Fort Worth Intermodal Transportation Center. It has a Subway Shop. Also, when the weather is nice, a hot dog vendor - he may have other sandwichs as well - sets up on the plaza.
Because of the long dwell time for the southbound Texas Eagle in Fort Worth, many of the coach passengers get off the train and buy their lunch at Subway as opposed to buying it on the train. Apparently the word has spread among the regular coach riders on the Eagle that there is a Subway in Fort Worth, and it is better than the Eagle's lounge car eats.
The Fort Worth Intermodal Transportation Center is served by Amtrak, Trinity Railway Express, Greyhound, and the "T", which is Fort Worth's public transportation service. It sees a lot of foot traffic.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
For as long as trains served the Cleveland Union Terminal (1930-1972, excluding PC's commuter), passengers could dine at the Fred Harvey English Oak Room, which in my mind remains the single best restaurant I've ever patronized. Panelled walls of oak from Sherwood Forest, floors of black and white marble (think Fred Harvey uniforms for women), a huge chandelier, oversized leather chairs and foot cushions, starched linen everywhere, delicious cuisine, and my first taste of lobster (tails).
Today's rail passenger in Cleveland has "complete access to a fully functioning vending machine" (pace Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel).
The simplest solution is to return to cooking onboard the train and then charging appropriately to break even, you don't have to turn a profit and you don't have to lose money either. Instead of having commisaries(which are rather expensive), I'd contract with established food service providers, such as Sysco, US Foodservice, etc., etc., or even someone like Trader Joe's.
So I guess Amtrak's Dining car menus aren't as good as they look?
Lucius Beebe would be disappointed. I wouldn't call it fine dining nowadays, but you can get a satisfying meal. Amtrak's chefs can't serve you anything beyond what Management provides for them to serve, but for the most part they still take pride in their work and do a very creditable job, considering the limitations imposed upon them.
XOTower, I disagree with alot about what you wrote in regards to Amtrak's food service. The reason the food service suffers isn't from Amtrak, its from John Mica from Florida and other politicians who get their noses in Amtrak affairs. Attacks on the cost of food service has been an ongoing problem for decades. At one time Amtrak cooks went to culinary schools, china and silver were put on the tables instead of plastic utensils, and there were speciality items in the menu for almost all the long distance trains. Now with constant government interference and intensive pressure to reduce dining and lounge car costs....the results are there before you now. B******* about food service directly aimed at Amtrak doesn't fly. Here is hoping that the new diners will bring back some civility to dining car service and the federal government allows the viewliner diners to bring back upgraded menu selections and service that travelers will accept.
To be honest, Beebe would be disappointed in any establishment that didn't merit three stars in the Michelin Guide. For the rest of the world, Amtrak's dining car service is a pleasant experience although it may be a bit pricey for coach passengers. Just keep your expectations realistic.
NKP guy For as long as trains served the Cleveland Union Terminal (1930-1972, excluding PC's commuter), passengers could dine at the Fred Harvey English Oak Room, which in my mind remains the single best restaurant I've ever patronized. Panelled walls of oak from Sherwood Forest, floors of black and white marble (think Fred Harvey uniforms for women), a huge chandelier, oversized leather chairs and foot cushions, starched linen everywhere, delicious cuisine, and my first taste of lobster (tails). Today's rail passenger in Cleveland has "complete access to a fully functioning vending machine" (pace Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel). EL (later Conrail) commuter service ran into CUT, not PC.
EL (later Conrail) commuter service ran into CUT, not PC.
There are structural economic reasons for why Amtrak food service is not what it was in the Golden Era. Unless riders are willing to pay a premium for "fine dining" well above what the price would be in a good restaurant, that cannot happen.
bill613a NKP guy For as long as trains served the Cleveland Union Terminal (1930-1972, excluding PC's commuter), passengers could dine at the Fred Harvey English Oak Room, which in my mind remains the single best restaurant I've ever patronized. Panelled walls of oak from Sherwood Forest, floors of black and white marble (think Fred Harvey uniforms for women), a huge chandelier, oversized leather chairs and foot cushions, starched linen everywhere, delicious cuisine, and my first taste of lobster (tails). Today's rail passenger in Cleveland has "complete access to a fully functioning vending machine" (pace Second Best Exotic Marigold Hotel). EL (later Conrail) commuter service ran into CUT, not PC.
You're right, of course, but no one along that line ever referred to it or its trains as Conrail; just the newspapers.
It was always simply the Erie.
Erie Lackawanna, with or without the hypen, was just too many syllables for us pragmatic Ohioans.
https://archive.org/stream/clevelandmakingo00rose#page/886/mode/2up
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