CMStPnP confirms what I saw at Union Staion: old cars with a fine, nostalgic paint scheme on a train running on a terrible schedule. Unless Indiana can fork up the dough for improvements in ROW (unlikely), they should drop the "service" soon.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
CMStPnP daveklepper When I say that reuse of Budd cars makes sense, I am talking about refitted cars, not preserved antiques. Yes, HEP, modern air-conditioning, new springs and shocks, perhaps even complete new trucks, air, tinted windows that still permit scenery viewing while reducing glare, etc. If you watch a few YouTube videos and see the interiors of the Iowa Pacific Cars.............not as well maintained or as refurbished as the Budds on VIA Rail North of the Border. Ellis took the cheap way out, whenever he could.
daveklepper When I say that reuse of Budd cars makes sense, I am talking about refitted cars, not preserved antiques. Yes, HEP, modern air-conditioning, new springs and shocks, perhaps even complete new trucks, air, tinted windows that still permit scenery viewing while reducing glare, etc.
When I say that reuse of Budd cars makes sense, I am talking about refitted cars, not preserved antiques. Yes, HEP, modern air-conditioning, new springs and shocks, perhaps even complete new trucks, air, tinted windows that still permit scenery viewing while reducing glare, etc.
If you watch a few YouTube videos and see the interiors of the Iowa Pacific Cars.............not as well maintained or as refurbished as the Budds on VIA Rail North of the Border. Ellis took the cheap way out, whenever he could.
Yeah I would fly aboard a DC 7 or DC 3 or Ford tri motor hands down. but then again I ride steam excursions every summer as well. When traveling I prefer a modern jet, Amtrak Acela or superliners and modern high speed trains the European field. I also love my new car and truck. A 55 Chevy is great on a sunny summer day, can't see driving it every day.
All sorts of interesting suppositions and meandering through unrelated subject matter here. (Yes I would fly a DC7, DC3 or an L1049 from Chicago to Indy in a heartbeat!)
What I don't understand is the sound of crickets emanating (or not!) from TRAINS, PTJ and so on. The mainstream press is reporting vagaries of the IP family of companies, lack of contract understanding from Mr Ellis, layoffs, possible financial issues and so on. The "fan" press on the other hand is curiously quiet with the exception of printing press releases. I wonder if there is a story here or not ?
D.Carleton schlimm D.Carleton schlimm I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s? As opposed to...? As opposed to fairly modern jetliners, obviously. No, not so obvious. Are we talking about a 1950s railcar with steam heat, fluorescent lighting and dump tube toilets or a refitted 1950s railcar with HEP, LED lighting, retention toilets, WiFi and outlets at every seat? In the Amtrak/Via era the new corridor equipment that came down the line were Amfleet, LRC, Talgo, Renaissance and the California Bilevels. Each brought innovations but never really could match the “people space” of what we call heritage cars. It always seemed we were going in the opposite direction. A heritage car with updated amenities results in greater customer satisfaction than the newer rolling stock. Why? You'll have to ask them. At the risk of sounding self serving the new Siemens North American Viaggio coaches as being built for Florida are much closer in “people space” to those cars of the past making very good use of the space available. Soon we shall see what the customers think. I think the superliners equipment reached the level of acceptance that the original heritage equipment did. When the atsf introduced its original high level cars for its el cap, they were very well received by riding public Today's super liners coaches, diners and lounge's in my opinion are better than any of Iowa Pacific heritage cars. Including their ex atsf first generation high level cars. Amtrak could field a better train today with its super liners than Iowa Pacific, ( if their any to spare ) and if Indiana wanted to foot the bill. ( which I doubt. ) The Hoosier state biggest issue continue to be slow running times and a poor schedule. The IP heritage cars were just a novelty, not a lasting solution.
schlimm D.Carleton schlimm I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s? As opposed to...? As opposed to fairly modern jetliners, obviously.
D.Carleton schlimm I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s? As opposed to...?
schlimm I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s?
As opposed to...?
As opposed to fairly modern jetliners, obviously.
No, not so obvious. Are we talking about a 1950s railcar with steam heat, fluorescent lighting and dump tube toilets or a refitted 1950s railcar with HEP, LED lighting, retention toilets, WiFi and outlets at every seat? In the Amtrak/Via era the new corridor equipment that came down the line were Amfleet, LRC, Talgo, Renaissance and the California Bilevels. Each brought innovations but never really could match the “people space” of what we call heritage cars. It always seemed we were going in the opposite direction. A heritage car with updated amenities results in greater customer satisfaction than the newer rolling stock. Why? You'll have to ask them. At the risk of sounding self serving the new Siemens North American Viaggio coaches as being built for Florida are much closer in “people space” to those cars of the past making very good use of the space available. Soon we shall see what the customers think.
I think the superliners equipment reached the level of acceptance that the original heritage equipment did. When the atsf introduced its original high level cars for its el cap, they were very well received by riding public
Today's super liners coaches, diners and lounge's in my opinion are better than any of Iowa Pacific heritage cars. Including their ex atsf first generation high level cars. Amtrak could field a better train today with its super liners than Iowa Pacific, ( if their any to spare ) and if Indiana wanted to foot the bill. ( which I doubt. )
The Hoosier state biggest issue continue to be slow running times and a poor schedule. The IP heritage cars were just a novelty, not a lasting solution.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
I rode the Hoosier to Indy in Janurary and it ran on time (waiting for departure time at each stop and arrived about 20 min early at Indy. But with track speeds of 40 mph and 20 mph getting out of Chicago is rediculous. After leaving the former C&IW and C&EI, ran at 70 and then 60 on former Monon & NYC tracks. This makes for a very slow trip. Service was excellent. Amtrak had a crew of three, two conductors ( I can see training and other reasons for this) nd engineer. IP had a coach attendent, chef, and two servers. Two coaches were empty, one had about 40 for Lafeyette, the other had about 30 for Crawfords ville and Indy. Amtrak getting such a large cut of the Indiana payment for Management, Billing, Reservations, Insurance and CSX charges makes me wish I could see the full accounting. I can see INDOT dropping it.
Took greyhound NB and it got off I-65 to go to a transit center in Lafayette, then took city streets to go to Greyhounds station in Gary, then got on I-90 (Indiana tollway) to an exit where it took city streets to get to the Dan Ryan to go South to the 95th street CTA station before going on to the Chicago Greyhound terminal. Its total time 4:10 is compared to the rail time of 5:05. Other busses are scheduled for times as low as 3:15. And fares as low as $19 but I paid $29 for Greyhound and $59 for Amtrak business class. When I started planning my trip, Southwest Airlines had a $49 WannaGetAway fare but I delayed and it got up to $125 when I went to buy it so I changed to the bus. Todays SWA wga fare is $120. So Amtrak's fare is reasonable and competative. but it's slow time is working against it.
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON The Budd company estimated the service life for its equipment was about 40 years. Amtrak required all private cars to be inspected at the 40 year mark. Cars are carefully inspected look for structural damage including trucks and wheel sets. Many s private car was side lined during these inspection. Some of the last heritage cars were taken out of service because of serve wear these cars endure. At 60 plus years, these cars have seen a lot of mileage. I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s?
ROBERT WILLISON The Budd company estimated the service life for its equipment was about 40 years. Amtrak required all private cars to be inspected at the 40 year mark. Cars are carefully inspected look for structural damage including trucks and wheel sets. Many s private car was side lined during these inspection. Some of the last heritage cars were taken out of service because of serve wear these cars endure. At 60 plus years, these cars have seen a lot of mileage.
The Budd company estimated the service life for its equipment was about 40 years. Amtrak required all private cars to be inspected at the 40 year mark. Cars are carefully inspected look for structural damage including trucks and wheel sets. Many s private car was side lined during these inspection. Some of the last heritage cars were taken out of service because of serve wear these cars endure. At 60 plus years, these cars have seen a lot of mileage.
I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s?
Not really an apples to oranges comparison.
An "expensive model collector"
schlimmI wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s?
schlimm The notion of a regular passenger service (not some dinner train or historic tourist line) running 60-year old equipment is laughable.
The notion of a regular passenger service (not some dinner train or historic tourist line) running 60-year old equipment is laughable.
blue streak 1 daveklepper Again, Via gets good service out of 60--year-old Budd equipment be replacing and updating the critical mechanical, electrical, sanitary, and passenger ameity equipment. We may have to review our opinion of VIA. For the last month VIA has not been able to get to even close to on time operations. Seems like many times it is loosing hours at Winnepeg ? Arrived yesterday 15 hours late at Toronto. Granted we have no idea how much of the delays are CN's fault ?
daveklepper Again, Via gets good service out of 60--year-old Budd equipment be replacing and updating the critical mechanical, electrical, sanitary, and passenger ameity equipment.
We may have to review our opinion of VIA. For the last month VIA has not been able to get to even close to on time operations. Seems like many times it is loosing hours at Winnepeg ? Arrived yesterday 15 hours late at Toronto.
Granted we have no idea how much of the delays are CN's fault ?
Johnny
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The Via train is essentially a land cruise. The Manx train is essentially a quaint tourist line. Big difference between that and a mainline service between two MSAs, where frequent, fast service on modern equipment should be de rigueur.
daveklepper VIA gets relivable service from 60-year-old Budd equipment. But I'll bet all critical mechanical andn electrical parts, air-conditrioning, etc. are a lot newer.
VIA gets relivable service from 60-year-old Budd equipment. But I'll bet all critical mechanical andn electrical parts, air-conditrioning, etc. are a lot newer.
[quote user="Dakguy201"]meal service[/quote
Perhaps with better funding and better management, Amtrak could be the Carrier you want it to be.
For the short term, Amtrak has an outstanding leader in their new CEO. Long term funding that addresses it's short and long-term capital needs is still in question.
The experiment with Iowa Pacific just shows the lack of understanding it's leadership had in knowing the real cost of operating a daily passenger service and the strain it put on operating post war Budd equipment in 2016. To be competive, Iowa Pacific, just like Amtrak and any business needs up to date equipment. The Budd cars look great, but are well beyond their service life.
A great effort, but hope is not a plan.
081552 Wingfield says the national passenger rail carrier has verbally committed to trying to add some of the amenities Iowa Pacific offered, including WiFi service.
Wingfield says the national passenger rail carrier has verbally committed to trying to add some of the amenities Iowa Pacific offered, including WiFi service.
This is exactly why I'm disappointed the Iowa Pacific arrangement didn't work out. Amtrak is going to "try" to add wi-fi. Oh, that is such a stretch for them, perhaps they might accomplish it by 2050. How about a first class car offering edible meal service? Maybe a dome car? While I support the individual states having to support the regional trains they choose to have, Amtrak needs competition to operate those trains.
081552 Financial Missteps Lead Iowa Pacific To Give Up On Hoosier State Line Stan Jastrzebski Indiana Department of Transportation officials say an unreasonable request led to Iowa Pacific Holdings removing itself from a deal to run the Hoosier State passenger train. But Iowa Pacific’s CEO says a quirk in the contracts between his company, INDOT and Amtrak doomed the partnership. Ed Ellis says his firm’s compensation from the deal decreased each time on-time performance improved. “The way the contracts worked, we ended up getting less money as the train ran more on time,” Ellis says. That’s due in part to a contract stipulation that INDOT paid Amtrak before Iowa Pacific when there was any profit. It meant Amtrak got deposits totaling almost four million dollars in 2016, but Iowa Pacific got just half-a-million bucks. That led Ellis, late last year, to try to renegotiate the deal, asking for $150,000 a month in guaranteed revenue. INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield says that’s more than the original deal stipulated and more than was reasonable for Iowa Pacific to seek. Ellis says he didn’t realize the contract would swing the payments so far in Amtrak’s favor, and says he’ll learn from the experience if his company enters into another public-private partnership. “The one thing that I would want to change going forward is to make sure that we put some kind of a floor under what our monthly revenue would be from the contract so that we don’t get into a situation where, at the end, we’re several hundred thousand dollars less than where we thought we would be,” Ellis says. Wingfield says the national passenger rail carrier has verbally committed to trying to add some of the amenities Iowa Pacific offered, including WiFi service.
Indiana Department of Transportation officials say an unreasonable request led to Iowa Pacific Holdings removing itself from a deal to run the Hoosier State passenger train.
But Iowa Pacific’s CEO says a quirk in the contracts between his company, INDOT and Amtrak doomed the partnership.
Ed Ellis says his firm’s compensation from the deal decreased each time on-time performance improved.
“The way the contracts worked, we ended up getting less money as the train ran more on time,” Ellis says.
That’s due in part to a contract stipulation that INDOT paid Amtrak before Iowa Pacific when there was any profit. It meant Amtrak got deposits totaling almost four million dollars in 2016, but Iowa Pacific got just half-a-million bucks.
That led Ellis, late last year, to try to renegotiate the deal, asking for $150,000 a month in guaranteed revenue. INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield says that’s more than the original deal stipulated and more than was reasonable for Iowa Pacific to seek.
Ellis says he didn’t realize the contract would swing the payments so far in Amtrak’s favor, and says he’ll learn from the experience if his company enters into another public-private partnership.
“The one thing that I would want to change going forward is to make sure that we put some kind of a floor under what our monthly revenue would be from the contract so that we don’t get into a situation where, at the end, we’re several hundred thousand dollars less than where we thought we would be,” Ellis says.
I don't get this at all. Ellis should have an experienced lawyer reading the contracts and explaning to him in dollars and cents what they mean. I am at a loss how an experienced business person could have missed this. Again goes to the impression I have of his operations as being under the amatuer hour heading.
Additionally, he had the experience of Amtrak screwing him over in other areas, why wouldn't he expect they pulled a fast one in the contract?
Very strange and this is normal with business and a business franchise. You have to read all leases and contracts very carefully and if they are written in legalese you need to get an experienced lawyer to interpret them.
If anyone could do it, it would be Warren Buffett. But so far he has shown no inclination to invest in passenger rail. Smart fellow.
In the "Trains" news item, it said that INDOT paid $254,000 per month for the "Hoosier State" service. If Iowa Pacific got about $500,000 a year, then they averaged about $42,000 per month to pay for On Board Services, repairs to their locomotives and cars, administration, fuel, etc. Amtrak would have gotten from INDOT an average of about $212,000 per month or about $2,544,000 per year for their services and had to pay CSX.
It looks like Iowa Pacific did a lot of the work, but only got the crumbs.
This is a very disappointing outcome to an attempt at semi-privatization. We're not likely to ever see it, but I'd be very interested in an insider's view of what occured. Some of the causes are obvious -- service frequency and the trip time are among them, but I suspect there were other issues of which I'm unaware.
JPS1 In FY16 the Hoosier State carried 29,488 riders, who generated ticket revenues of $968,296. Expenses were approximately $3,700,000, thereby generating a loss on ticket sales of $2,731,704 before depreciation and interest. The loss on ticket revenues, which averaged $92.64 per passenger, was made up mostly by Indiana, with perhaps some coverage from Amtrak. The average load factor was 32.5 percent.
In other words, in most cases they could save subsidy money by just buying folks a RT airline ticket on Southwest and giving it away for free without charging any money for it. That is kind of sad, in my view.
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