http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/passenger/intercity/hoosier-state-reverting-to-amtrak-equipment-services.html?channel=41
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Well that didn't last long did it? I suspect that Mr. Ellis subsidized part of the operation this past year and the State of Indiana did not want to pay his price the next year.........that would be my guess on what happened.
CMStPnP Well that didn't last long did it? I suspect that Mr. Ellis subsidized part of the operation this past year and the State of Indiana did not want to pay his price the next year.........that would be my guess on what happened.
I wonder how the passenger numbers compare? The problem remains the slow time of the service and awkward scheduling. It is not competitive. You can use old cars painted for the IC and have nicer food service, but it is still crappy service. Lipstick on a pig.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
I am sure the service and the equipment was good. Problem is even when the passenger service was operated by private railroad companies, they could not make a profit. Why would any one think Ed Ellis could. Just not going to happen.
As this is a corridor that is under 750 miles, under PRIIA Indiana has to pick up the cost. They hired IPH to provide the cars and locomotives as they presumably bid lower than Amtrak, who staffs the trains. I think that the financial difficulties are probably elsewhere in the empire since I doubt they would bid on a contract that would lose them money on supplying the equipment, unless these costs were greater than anticipated. Indiana always subsidized the operating costs and covered the train's losses. Operation was simply contracted out.
schlimmI wonder how the passenger numbers compare? The problem remains the slow time of the service and awkward scheduling. It is not competitive. You can use old cars painted for the IC and have nicer food service, but it is still crappy service. Lipstick on a pig.
Yes, agree you can't change a lot of peoples minds with slightly more amiable accomodations. One reason why I am so against turning the LD trains into Milk Runs but there seems to be a movement underway to do that. One or two hours cut off the schedule or added frequencies would have made more of a difference on this route than bringing back old equipment.
He hailed the increased ridership on his train over Amtrak but to tell you the truth the numbers were pretty low to begin with I suspect. So that a 20-30% increase would not be that many additional people, though I think the increase was probably less in percentage terms.
One cannot help but wonder if the added passenger revenue didn't come close to cancelling out the added expense of running his older equipment. To hit a home run on that route we would have needed to see at least near a triple digit increase in percentage terms. I suspect he lost money on the deal.
The speed on the line from Indianapolis to Chicago on CSX's part of the route is increasing as the line is undergoing a significant upgrade to host UPS intermobile trains once the track and signaling is upgraded from Louisville to Chicago. I run on that line and just last Friday, CSX finished a major upgrade in Crawfordsville, IN called "Ames" on the southside of town, where Amtrak had a connection track put in from the Conrail segment to the old Monon route. It has been 10 mph since that time but Friday with the improvements in place the speed is now 25 mph for passenger and freight. So in time the speed of that line will gradually increase as line segments are completed. Amtrak Cardinal and Hoosier State will benefit.
Iowa Pacific has had trouble with the equipement and that seems to have gone away, but the locomotives are a different issue, lately they have proved to be unreliable and forced IP to have two engines per train, not good. CSX does a really good job of dispatching Amtrak from Indy to Chicago, so that is not the issue.
On another note last week while on a Indy to TRRA of St. Louis train going into Madison Yard, I took a cab back to CSX Roselake and on the way passed an equipment yard near USS Steel Granite City, IL. Lots of heritage equiment that included domes and several ex-Santa Fe high-level cars all in some aspect of storage.
More info:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/passenger/single-view/view/hoosier-state-returns-to-amtrak-fold.html
Iowa Pacific President Ed Ellis admitted that performance and punctuality had been a problem.
Although the agreement was due to run until mid-2017, with an optional four-year extension, Iowa Pacific told INDOT that it was ‘unable to continue providing passenger train equipment and on-board services under the terms of its existing contract’. According to INDOT, the company was looking for a guaranteed monthly payment which was ‘outside the budget we had’. However, the state has reportedly agreed to provide an additional $300 000 to support operations until the end of February.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
JPS1 In FY16 the Hoosier State carried 29,488 riders, who generated ticket revenues of $968,296. Expenses were approximately $3,700,000, thereby generating a loss on ticket sales of $2,731,704 before depreciation and interest. The loss on ticket revenues, which averaged $92.64 per passenger, was made up mostly by Indiana, with perhaps some coverage from Amtrak. The average load factor was 32.5 percent.
In other words, in most cases they could save subsidy money by just buying folks a RT airline ticket on Southwest and giving it away for free without charging any money for it. That is kind of sad, in my view.
This is a very disappointing outcome to an attempt at semi-privatization. We're not likely to ever see it, but I'd be very interested in an insider's view of what occured. Some of the causes are obvious -- service frequency and the trip time are among them, but I suspect there were other issues of which I'm unaware.
Indiana Department of Transportation officials say an unreasonable request led to Iowa Pacific Holdings removing itself from a deal to run the Hoosier State passenger train.
But Iowa Pacific’s CEO says a quirk in the contracts between his company, INDOT and Amtrak doomed the partnership.
Ed Ellis says his firm’s compensation from the deal decreased each time on-time performance improved.
“The way the contracts worked, we ended up getting less money as the train ran more on time,” Ellis says.
That’s due in part to a contract stipulation that INDOT paid Amtrak before Iowa Pacific when there was any profit. It meant Amtrak got deposits totaling almost four million dollars in 2016, but Iowa Pacific got just half-a-million bucks.
That led Ellis, late last year, to try to renegotiate the deal, asking for $150,000 a month in guaranteed revenue. INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield says that’s more than the original deal stipulated and more than was reasonable for Iowa Pacific to seek.
Ellis says he didn’t realize the contract would swing the payments so far in Amtrak’s favor, and says he’ll learn from the experience if his company enters into another public-private partnership.
“The one thing that I would want to change going forward is to make sure that we put some kind of a floor under what our monthly revenue would be from the contract so that we don’t get into a situation where, at the end, we’re several hundred thousand dollars less than where we thought we would be,” Ellis says.
Wingfield says the national passenger rail carrier has verbally committed to trying to add some of the amenities Iowa Pacific offered, including WiFi service.
In the "Trains" news item, it said that INDOT paid $254,000 per month for the "Hoosier State" service. If Iowa Pacific got about $500,000 a year, then they averaged about $42,000 per month to pay for On Board Services, repairs to their locomotives and cars, administration, fuel, etc. Amtrak would have gotten from INDOT an average of about $212,000 per month or about $2,544,000 per year for their services and had to pay CSX.
It looks like Iowa Pacific did a lot of the work, but only got the crumbs.
If anyone could do it, it would be Warren Buffett. But so far he has shown no inclination to invest in passenger rail. Smart fellow.
081552 Financial Missteps Lead Iowa Pacific To Give Up On Hoosier State Line Stan Jastrzebski Indiana Department of Transportation officials say an unreasonable request led to Iowa Pacific Holdings removing itself from a deal to run the Hoosier State passenger train. But Iowa Pacific’s CEO says a quirk in the contracts between his company, INDOT and Amtrak doomed the partnership. Ed Ellis says his firm’s compensation from the deal decreased each time on-time performance improved. “The way the contracts worked, we ended up getting less money as the train ran more on time,” Ellis says. That’s due in part to a contract stipulation that INDOT paid Amtrak before Iowa Pacific when there was any profit. It meant Amtrak got deposits totaling almost four million dollars in 2016, but Iowa Pacific got just half-a-million bucks. That led Ellis, late last year, to try to renegotiate the deal, asking for $150,000 a month in guaranteed revenue. INDOT spokesman Will Wingfield says that’s more than the original deal stipulated and more than was reasonable for Iowa Pacific to seek. Ellis says he didn’t realize the contract would swing the payments so far in Amtrak’s favor, and says he’ll learn from the experience if his company enters into another public-private partnership. “The one thing that I would want to change going forward is to make sure that we put some kind of a floor under what our monthly revenue would be from the contract so that we don’t get into a situation where, at the end, we’re several hundred thousand dollars less than where we thought we would be,” Ellis says. Wingfield says the national passenger rail carrier has verbally committed to trying to add some of the amenities Iowa Pacific offered, including WiFi service.
I don't get this at all. Ellis should have an experienced lawyer reading the contracts and explaning to him in dollars and cents what they mean. I am at a loss how an experienced business person could have missed this. Again goes to the impression I have of his operations as being under the amatuer hour heading.
Additionally, he had the experience of Amtrak screwing him over in other areas, why wouldn't he expect they pulled a fast one in the contract?
Very strange and this is normal with business and a business franchise. You have to read all leases and contracts very carefully and if they are written in legalese you need to get an experienced lawyer to interpret them.
081552 Wingfield says the national passenger rail carrier has verbally committed to trying to add some of the amenities Iowa Pacific offered, including WiFi service.
This is exactly why I'm disappointed the Iowa Pacific arrangement didn't work out. Amtrak is going to "try" to add wi-fi. Oh, that is such a stretch for them, perhaps they might accomplish it by 2050. How about a first class car offering edible meal service? Maybe a dome car? While I support the individual states having to support the regional trains they choose to have, Amtrak needs competition to operate those trains.
[quote user="Dakguy201"]meal service[/quote
Perhaps with better funding and better management, Amtrak could be the Carrier you want it to be.
For the short term, Amtrak has an outstanding leader in their new CEO. Long term funding that addresses it's short and long-term capital needs is still in question.
The experiment with Iowa Pacific just shows the lack of understanding it's leadership had in knowing the real cost of operating a daily passenger service and the strain it put on operating post war Budd equipment in 2016. To be competive, Iowa Pacific, just like Amtrak and any business needs up to date equipment. The Budd cars look great, but are well beyond their service life.
A great effort, but hope is not a plan.
VIA gets relivable service from 60-year-old Budd equipment. But I'll bet all critical mechanical andn electrical parts, air-conditrioning, etc. are a lot newer.
The notion of a regular passenger service (not some dinner train or historic tourist line) running 60-year old equipment is laughable.
daveklepper VIA gets relivable service from 60-year-old Budd equipment. But I'll bet all critical mechanical andn electrical parts, air-conditrioning, etc. are a lot newer.
schlimm The notion of a regular passenger service (not some dinner train or historic tourist line) running 60-year old equipment is laughable.
[quote user="daveklepper"]
[quote user="schlimm"]
[/quote]
The Via train is essentially a land cruise. The Manx train is essentially a quaint tourist line. Big difference between that and a mainline service between two MSAs, where frequent, fast service on modern equipment should be de rigueur.
daveklepper Again, Via gets good service out of 60--year-old Budd equipment be replacing and updating the critical mechanical, electrical, sanitary, and passenger ameity equipment.
We may have to review our opinion of VIA. For the last month VIA has not been able to get to even close to on time operations. Seems like many times it is loosing hours at Winnepeg ? Arrived yesterday 15 hours late at Toronto.
Granted we have no idea how much of the delays are CN's fault ?
blue streak 1 daveklepper Again, Via gets good service out of 60--year-old Budd equipment be replacing and updating the critical mechanical, electrical, sanitary, and passenger ameity equipment. We may have to review our opinion of VIA. For the last month VIA has not been able to get to even close to on time operations. Seems like many times it is loosing hours at Winnepeg ? Arrived yesterday 15 hours late at Toronto. Granted we have no idea how much of the delays are CN's fault ?
Johnny
The Budd company estimated the service life for its equipment was about 40 years. Amtrak required all private cars to be inspected at the 40 year mark. Cars are carefully inspected look for structural damage including trucks and wheel sets. Many s private car was side lined during these inspection. Some of the last heritage cars were taken out of service because of serve wear these cars endure. At 60 plus years, these cars have seen a lot of mileage.
Editor Emeritus, This Week at Amtrak
ROBERT WILLISON The Budd company estimated the service life for its equipment was about 40 years. Amtrak required all private cars to be inspected at the 40 year mark. Cars are carefully inspected look for structural damage including trucks and wheel sets. Many s private car was side lined during these inspection. Some of the last heritage cars were taken out of service because of serve wear these cars endure. At 60 plus years, these cars have seen a lot of mileage.
I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s?
schlimmI wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s?
schlimm ROBERT WILLISON The Budd company estimated the service life for its equipment was about 40 years. Amtrak required all private cars to be inspected at the 40 year mark. Cars are carefully inspected look for structural damage including trucks and wheel sets. Many s private car was side lined during these inspection. Some of the last heritage cars were taken out of service because of serve wear these cars endure. At 60 plus years, these cars have seen a lot of mileage. I wonder how many of the antique rail car supporters prefer flying on 60 year old DC-7s?
Not really an apples to oranges comparison.
An "expensive model collector"
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