That isn't all that different from what I've seen at Jamaica several times throughout the day, where three trains on three adjoining tracks will exchange passengers, with the doors on the train on the middle track open on both sides to act as a bridge.
The oddest AT&SF experience I had was at Albuquerque. I can't remember the year but probably 1964 in Winter. I and others were waiting at the station to board the southbound El Pasoan, leaving at 6 pm, which was idling on the next track over. In comes the westbound El Cap running late on the main track and blocking access to the El Pasoan. After about 10 minutes or so, the announcement was made to board the El Pasoan. To gain access, we had to climb aboard the El Cap, pass through to the other side, and detrain onto the middle platform, then climb aboard the El Pasoan. As I recall, we left ahead of the El Cap with the next station stop for us was Belen. At the rear, the Super Chief may have been part of the El Cap consist that day, but I only recall the hi-level cars of the El Cap. Given how organized the pass through was, I assume station and train personnel were use to this occasional maneuver.
RJ Emery near Santa Fe, NM
The initial public timetables issued jointly by Amtrak and Santa Fe included the El Capitan name. It was quietly dropped in the Nov 14, 1971 timetables issued by Amtrak.
Maybe not a public announcement, but I have seen equipment listings in the OG in the mid-1960's that show reserved-seat coaches as part of the "Super Chief" consist. The "El Capitan" continued to show a separate equipment listing even though both trains had the same numbers (17-18).
And I rode it summer 1968 as a separate train. Most other times combined.
No El Cap at all under Amtrak. For a while. coach Amtrak passengers rode the Super.
And actually, during heavy-traffic periods when the El Cap was sold out, coaches were added to the Super, but there was no public announcement.
I rode El Cap in April and August 1962. On all four occasions it ran combined with the Super Chief.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Didn't Amtrak also run the Super Chief & El Cap as separate trains (or a second section of the combined train) on occasion during the early 70's when demand warranted?
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Peak periods varied according to demand. Demand did not steadily decrease, because train-offs brought more buesiness to both the Super and the El Cap. My experience during this period was that often separate trains were run for the entire summer season, as well as around Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter. Not only Santa Fe dtrain-offs, but the discontinuamce of the Goldlen State.
After about 1958, the "Super Chief" and "El Capitan" ran as a combined train except for peak periods, when they were run as separate sections of the same schedule. I shot a picture of the combined train waiting for departure at Dearborn Station in 1969 or 1970 with an FP45/F45/F45 lash-up providing motive power.
longhorn1969What are those flanges sticking out from the sides of the plow near the tracks.
I believe you are talking about the foot boards. Note the handrails just below the red-painted area. I don't remember ever seeing them on F or E units. They look like they are readily removable, and I wonder if they were left on during the whole trip or were added for some purpose during this stop.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Dr D
Here are some notable Super Chief dates adding to and correcting what you have already said:
Do note the combined Super Chief/El Capitan date is a start date and not to be read as just in 1958.
BaltACD,
My experience with the train sets was in the summer of 1966, 1967 and 1968 as well as traveling the route on the Super Chief in the summer of 1970. I never saw the two run as one train. In fact they were advertised as two different trains. In the summer of 1967 the line was shut down in Kansas owing to a derailment and I came across no less that two days worth of transcontinental trains backed up in each direction. The Super Chief was run, as I said, a deluxe hotel on wheels and both train sets were at full capacity precluding additional cars. When I rode the Super Chief in 1970 the EMD F units had been replaced by EMD FP45's of 3,600 hp each requiring only two engine cab units. As a young man I entirely explored the train from baggage cars to drum head observation car and I can tell you there were no El Capitan high level coaches or any coach cars on the Super Chief for that matter!
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I enjoyed your posted color photo and a quick look at the Super Chief on Wikipedia indicates that in the "off season" they ran as one train. Wiki also indicates the loss of the drum head observation cars in the 1950s but my memory was they were in use into the 60's ON THE SUPER CHIEF.
Wiki indicates that Amtrak took over the trains and with permission in 1971 but dropped the El Capitan and continued to use the Super Chief name into 1973 when the railroad felt the name was being disgraced and refused them. After that time Southwestern Chief was used.
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I never realized that my 1970 highschool graduation trip on the Super Chief was that close to the end of that famous transcontinental era!
My best to you,
Doc
Super Chief equipment on rear.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
longhorn1969,
Until Amtrak the El Capitain and Super Chief were always run as two separate trainsets. Pulled by four EMD F units equipped and geared for passenger service this would give about 6000 horsepower to run the 100 mph top speed and mountain grades. Likely the fourth EMD booster unit of each engine set, was for reserve capacity so that the other engines need not be run consistantly at their full power setting.
I am guessing that Santa Fe had about six full train sets for both the El Capitain and Super Chief to allow several trains to all be on the road at the same time departing on different days east bound and westbound. This would allow extra capacity if there were a problem in turning around or delaying a particular train.
The El Capitain and the Super Chief ran daily at the same time on the same timetable almost as if they were first and second sections of the same train but never together. The El Capitain was physically different from the Super Chief and specially equipped with the first inovative high level passenger cars built in America - it was all coach travel equipped with a diner and a baggage lounge car. One special car on the El Capitain consist was a low level car with elevated windscreen on the rear that made the streamline transition from the standard height of the engines to the high level elevation of all the coach cars. America had never seen this before.
The Super Chief on the other hand was the more usual streamliner "extra fare" all pullman train using conventional low level cars equipped with diner, vistadome observation car featuring library office facilitites, and a boat tail lounge car - with drumhead - at the end of the train. Basically a deluxe hotel on wheels.
Owing to the proximity of Hollywood, CA to Los Angeles, CA the Super Chief was the transcontinental transportation of choice for movie stars of the era and the train crew was used to the patronage of the stars of the silver screen.
These consistantly run but two entirely different train sets were the flagship of the Santa Fe Railroad and the deluxe fast passenger rail travel offered between Los Angeles, California and Chicago, Illinois. They were designed to leave in the evening and arrive at their destination in the morning after one full day out on the road. Basically, they traveled about as fast as a regularly scheduled train could go over the 2,222 miles of some of the most desolate deserts and rugged mountains in America. Top speed was limited by design of the diesel engines to be about 100 mph - I am assuming over 80 mph thru much of the flatland and in the mountians grade speed was reduced further as required. The timetable shows no other trains or cars were fed into the consist of the Super Chief or El Capitain.
Santa Fe ran all 2,222 miles on its own trackage. The Union Pacific on the other hand used several other railroads to expedite its name train, The City of San Francisco. Which left Chicago handled by either the Chicago & Northwestern Railroad or Milwaukee Railroad. Changing to Union Pacific Railroad at I am guessing Council Bluffs, Iowa. Westbound at Ogden, Utah was another road change as the City of San Francisco was run over the Southern Pacific Railroad trackage across the Nevada deserts and on into San Francisco, California.
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The Santa Fe Railroad had "Chico" the advertising characature Indian boy who would quote the saying - "Santa Fe All the Way!" - in all the company publications.
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Unlike today, the Santa Fe Railroad really went "all out" to provide the very best in passenger travel accomodation in America - and put a beautiful face on its heroic corporate structure - the whole railroad always tried to look and act the very best for the sake of public relations and public passenger travel.
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Santa Fe ran several other Chief trains through out the system and on the Pacific Coast as well as the Texas Chief - but the transcontinental Super Chief was the fast traveling super flagship of the railroad.
longhorn1969Was this a combined train or different sections?
In 1967 is was most likely combined.
Dr D rjemery, et.al I still have the Santa Fe timetable for Spring Summer 1967 which gives the following stops for the Super Chief - El Capitan. The two trains ran on the same schedule with the Chief being all Pullman sleeping cars and the El Capitain all coach. Both trains were "extra fare" travel. Departure - Chicago on Central Time was -------------- 6:30 PM - day 1 Arrival - Kansas City, MO - 449 miles was -------------- 1:55 AM - day 2 Departure - Kansas City, MO ---------------------------- 2:05 AM - day 2 Arrival - Dodge City, KAS - 787 miles - Central time -- 7:15 AM - day 2 Departure - Dodge City, KAS - Mountain time --------- 6:18 AM - day 2 Arrival - La Junta, CO - 990 miles ---------------------- 9:00 AM - day 2 Departure - La Junta, CO ------------------------------- 9:20 AM - day 2 Arrival - Albuquerque, NM - 1335 miles --------------- 5:00 PM - day 2 Leave - Albuquerque, NM ------------------------------- 5:10 PM - day 2 Arrival - Needles, CA - 1914 miles - Pacific Time ---- 2:00 AM - day 3 Leave - Needles, CA - Pacific Time -------------------- 2:05 AM - day 3 Arrival - Barstow, CA - 2081 miles -------------------- 5:00 AM - day 3 Departure - Barstow, CA ------------------------------- 5:10 AM - day 3 Arrival - Los Angeles - 2222 miles -------------------- 9:00 AM - day 3 ---------------- Reviewing this trip - Six stops to the west coast were scheduled. Chicago departure was in the 6:30 PM in the evening with 450 miles until the first layover at Kansas City, MO which was 10 minutes. The trip to Dodge City, KAS was 239 miles and the second layover at Dodge City was 3 minutes with time zone change from Central to Mountain moving watches back one hour. The trip to La Junta, CO was 541 miles and the third layover was 10 minutes. The trip to Albuquerque, NM was 345 miles and the fourth layover there was 10 minutes. The trip to Needles, CA was 579 miles and the fifth layover there was 5 minutes. The trip to Barstow, CA was 167 miles and the sixth layover there was 10 minutes. The run into Los Angeles CA in the morning was 141 miles with arrival at 9:00 AM Pacific Time watches set behind in the night at Needles, CA or upon waking. Sleeping car porter would remind you if necessary. ------------------------ Total trip running was 2222 miles with evening departure the first day and one full second day on the train with arrival in the AM of the third day. The Pullman porter would make up the bed - berth - anytime but usually in the evening leaving Chicago and the morning of the second day. He would make up the berth again the evening of the second day. Arrival in Los Angeles the morning of the third day usually precluded this again. Drinks were available in the lounge and meals on china with linen and silverwear in the dining car - seating at request of the steward who wore gloves and tails. The vista dome was available anytime. A writing desk and dictation equipment were also provided in the dome car where regular reports of the stock market were available - cell phones were not invented yet. TV was not available but radio was available in the Pullman car and magazines and newspapers were also available in the lounge and provided at breakfast each morning. I still have a "daily weather report" typed up on railroad stationary and included with my moring newspaper in my Pullman compartment. Except for posted mail, and short of recieving a telegram at one of the station stops, you were out of touch with the world and the scenery was the best - highways and byways of America and all the backyards and industrial settings also - open range and mountain pass everywhere people lived or did not live - just the railroad. The train moved constantly you could get off at the station stops and walk around the platform only for moments. Pets could be shipped in the baggage car or carried aboard the Pullman compartments - dogs could come aboard leashed if muzzled. You could buy native American souviners at the station stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico but it was only a 10 minute stop - and they didn't like to wait. And yah the Pullman porter shined your shoes every night if you put them in the special wall box located in your Pullman room compartment. ------------ Doc
rjemery, et.al
I still have the Santa Fe timetable for Spring Summer 1967 which gives the following stops for the Super Chief - El Capitan. The two trains ran on the same schedule with the Chief being all Pullman sleeping cars and the El Capitain all coach. Both trains were "extra fare" travel.
Departure - Chicago on Central Time was -------------- 6:30 PM - day 1
Arrival - Kansas City, MO - 449 miles was -------------- 1:55 AM - day 2
Departure - Kansas City, MO ---------------------------- 2:05 AM - day 2
Arrival - Dodge City, KAS - 787 miles - Central time -- 7:15 AM - day 2
Departure - Dodge City, KAS - Mountain time --------- 6:18 AM - day 2
Arrival - La Junta, CO - 990 miles ---------------------- 9:00 AM - day 2
Departure - La Junta, CO ------------------------------- 9:20 AM - day 2
Arrival - Albuquerque, NM - 1335 miles --------------- 5:00 PM - day 2
Leave - Albuquerque, NM ------------------------------- 5:10 PM - day 2
Arrival - Needles, CA - 1914 miles - Pacific Time ---- 2:00 AM - day 3
Leave - Needles, CA - Pacific Time -------------------- 2:05 AM - day 3
Arrival - Barstow, CA - 2081 miles -------------------- 5:00 AM - day 3
Departure - Barstow, CA ------------------------------- 5:10 AM - day 3
Arrival - Los Angeles - 2222 miles -------------------- 9:00 AM - day 3
----------------
Reviewing this trip - Six stops to the west coast were scheduled. Chicago departure was in the 6:30 PM in the evening with 450 miles until the first layover at Kansas City, MO which was 10 minutes.
The trip to Dodge City, KAS was 239 miles and the second layover at Dodge City was 3 minutes with time zone change from Central to Mountain moving watches back one hour.
The trip to La Junta, CO was 541 miles and the third layover was 10 minutes.
The trip to Albuquerque, NM was 345 miles and the fourth layover there was 10 minutes.
The trip to Needles, CA was 579 miles and the fifth layover there was 5 minutes.
The trip to Barstow, CA was 167 miles and the sixth layover there was 10 minutes.
The run into Los Angeles CA in the morning was 141 miles with arrival at 9:00 AM Pacific Time watches set behind in the night at Needles, CA or upon waking. Sleeping car porter would remind you if necessary.
------------------------
Total trip running was 2222 miles with evening departure the first day and one full second day on the train with arrival in the AM of the third day.
The Pullman porter would make up the bed - berth - anytime but usually in the evening leaving Chicago and the morning of the second day. He would make up the berth again the evening of the second day. Arrival in Los Angeles the morning of the third day usually precluded this again.
Drinks were available in the lounge and meals on china with linen and silverwear in the dining car - seating at request of the steward who wore gloves and tails. The vista dome was available anytime. A writing desk and dictation equipment were also provided in the dome car where regular reports of the stock market were available - cell phones were not invented yet. TV was not available but radio was available in the Pullman car and magazines and newspapers were also available in the lounge and provided at breakfast each morning.
I still have a "daily weather report" typed up on railroad stationary and included with my moring newspaper in my Pullman compartment.
Except for posted mail, and short of recieving a telegram at one of the station stops, you were out of touch with the world and the scenery was the best - highways and byways of America and all the backyards and industrial settings also - open range and mountain pass everywhere people lived or did not live - just the railroad.
The train moved constantly you could get off at the station stops and walk around the platform only for moments. Pets could be shipped in the baggage car or carried aboard the Pullman compartments - dogs could come aboard leashed if muzzled. You could buy native American souviners at the station stop in Albuquerque, New Mexico but it was only a 10 minute stop - and they didn't like to wait.
And yah the Pullman porter shined your shoes every night if you put them in the special wall box located in your Pullman room compartment.
------------
Was this a combined train or different sections?
NDG More,http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#captionHeadlight shroud. Bell by Horns, and more, much more.Thank You
More,http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#captionHeadlight shroud. Bell by Horns, and more, much more.Thank You
What are those flanges sticking out from the sides of the plow near the tracks.
How did they fuel the locomotives in five minutes? Even at 1200 gallons capacity.
bcrnfanThe ATS transponders were added and removed from units during the servicing as well.
This is interesting because, if I understand correctly, this is only the 'stop' adjacent to Shopton (where one would expect ATS maintenance to be conducted).
I suppose it is possible that the source is confusing the testing of the ATS (which iirc was done with a coil on a handle, a bit like a metal detector, rather than a fixed permanent magnet) with physical installation and removal of the pickup coils on the trucks (which would go along with the locomotive). It's possible that locomotives with defective ATS might be sent out from Chicago to be repaired 'closest to Shopton', or locomotives coming from the West that had suffered an ATC failure would be repaired there rather than cut off the train and another cab substituted, and that in both cases "speed would be of the essence". But without some clarification and, ideally, supporting photos or materials, I can't tell.
Electroliner 1935 bcrnfan Why were the transponders (I assume you are referring to the Pick up Coils that match up with the trackside "SHOE") that are mounted on the lead truck, be added/removed. Why didn't they stay with the locomotive?
bcrnfan
Why were the transponders (I assume you are referring to the Pick up Coils that match up with the trackside "SHOE") that are mounted on the lead truck, be added/removed. Why didn't they stay with the locomotive?
I suspect the ATS detector equipment remained with the locomotives for their entire trips. What may have been observed was the testing of the equipment before venturing into territory where its use is required. ATS is very much more than just the detector shoe that is visible in the exterior. Installing and removing the equipment for each pass would most likely not have the equipment in the proper state of alignment.
I don't know ATSF procedures, however, I suspect they would have had 'protect' engines available at ATS origin locations to insure that a working locomotive was available incase the one on the train failed the ATS test and the equipment couldn't be repaired.
Regarding the "San Francisco Chief," I concur that the train was refueled at Belen. I rode it westbound in 1970 and got off at Belen to walk around and take pictures. I don't specifically recall the engines being refuelled, but I did walk forward and take a photo of the power. (If someone can tell me how to upload it, I will do so.) The photo shows what look like fuel hoses lying on the platform next to the engines, and two hard-hatted workmen on the platform -- thus I conclude that refueling did indeed take place.
They used to fuel and water at Ft. Madison, IA, west of the station at Shopton. Once the current station was built by the yard, they did the servicing during the station stop. The ATS transponders were added and removed from units during the servicing as well.
RME Dr D I suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains. Doc, with specific reference to the Super Chief you need to research the happy world of steam-ejector air conditioning. It will open your eyes! (Or see p.411 in White's book on the American railroad passenger car, vol. 2, and the accompanying discussion.)
I suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains.
Doc, with specific reference to the Super Chief you need to research the happy world of steam-ejector air conditioning. It will open your eyes!
(Or see p.411 in White's book on the American railroad passenger car, vol. 2, and the accompanying discussion.)
Yet another reference for steam ejector cooling is the January 1917 issue of The Electric Journal which goes a bit into the history, theory and applications for steam ejector cooling. A couple of tidbits from the article is to plan for 34lb/hr of steam per ton of cooling with a 50F temp delta and that it doesn't make sense for small installations. The system does require a bit of mechanical power to pump out the condensed water and air that leaks into the system.
Some interesting technical highlights, the steam nozzles are of the De Laval type (i.e. converging/diverging as in nozzles for rocket engines), so the steam is flowing supersonically as it leaves the nozzle. This keeps the steam and entrained water vapor from flowing back to the evaporator. The steam vapor mixture then flows into a converging/diverging diffuser to slow down the mixture and increase pressure much the same way the air intake on a supersonic airplane, particularly the ones that fly faster than Mach 2.0.
Dr D, the line from Dodge City to LaJunta was in the wide open Arkansas Valley where there were 105 mph stretches. LaJunta to Albuquerque was over Raton Pass and Glorieta Pass, both 3% or greater. Also could some of the fueling stops be in yard facilities rather than station stops?
Dr DI suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains.
I suppose it would be common knowledge that the water use of diesel electric locomotives was for the steam heating of the trains. Most passenger consists having been heated by steam locomotives. When the diesel took over designers installed water heating equipment needed to supply existing steam passenger equipment systems.
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Regarding the scheduled passenger train stops in the 1967 Passenger Time Table of the Santa Fe Railroad - 6 stops were "listed passenger stops" for customer traffic to boarding and exiting the train. Likely other service stops could have been made and listed in Employee Time Tables.
Calculating the overall distance and time traveled between scheduled stops might show additional service times.
Reviewing the Super Chief schedule -
Chicago to Kansas City, MO was 450 miles with a running time from 6:30 PM to 1:55 AM. This is 7 hours 20 minutes to cover 450 miles.
10 minutes layover.
Kansas City, MO to Dodge City, KAS was 787 miles with a running time from 2:05 AM to 7:15 AM. This is 5 hours 10 minutes to cover 449 miles.
3 minute layover.
Dodge City, KAS (departure Mountain Time Change) to La Junta, CO with a running time from 6:18 AM to 9:00 AM. This is 2 hours 40 minutes to cover 203 miles.
20 minute layover.
La Junita, CO to Albuquerque, NM with running time from 9:20 AM 5:00 PM. This is 7 hours 40 minutes to cover 345 miles.
10 minute layover.
Albuquerque, NM to Needles, CA (Pacific Time Arrival) with a running time from 5:00PM to 2:00 AM. This is 10 hours running time to cover 579 miles.
Layover 5 minutes.
Needles, CA to Barstow, CA with a running time from 2:00 AM to 5:00 AM. This is 2 hours 55 minutes running time to cover 167 miles.
Barstow, CA to Los Angeles, CA with running time from 5:10 AM to 9:00 AM. This is 3 hours 50 minutes running time to cover 141 miles.
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To summarize -
First leg of trip - 7 hours 20 minuts to cover 450 miles.
Second leg of trip - 5 hours 10 minutes to cover 449 miles.
Third leg of trip - 2 hours 40 minutes to cover 203 miles.
Fourth leg of trip - 7 hours 40 minutes to cover 345 miles.
Fifth leg of trip - 10 hours to cover 579 miles.
Sixth leg of trip - 3 hours 50 minutes to cover 141 miles.
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From the look of the time usage I would assume several other stops.
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I also noted a pre Handicap Persons Law - railroad policy regarding wheelchairs and boarding the trains -
INVALIDS OR DISABLED PERSONS will not be permitted to occupy wheel or invalid chairs, or cots, or stretchers while traveling in chair car, Pullman sleeping car, or baggage car. Such conveyances may be used to assist in taking invalid or disabled persons into and out of train, if such passengers will occupy regular accommodations and are accompanied by attendant holding transportation who will take care of them enroute, also entering and leaving the train. Wheel chair, cot or stretcher will be handled in baggage car and included in weight and value of passenger baggage allowance.
WHEEL CHAIRS AVAILABLE AT MAJOR STATIONS. Ask Santa Fe personel on duty for assistance with this service.
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Also found several dinner menu from the dining car - the two days menu was not the same - what was for dinner the first day was different the second day!
Super Chief Champagne Dinner
pascal celery ------ Queen Olives
choice of appetizer
Charcoal Broiled Salmon Steak, Anchovey Butter - $ 4.40
Omelette with Stewed Fresh Blueberries Confiture - $ 3.95
Spring Chicken Saute, Marengo --------------------- $ 4.80
London Mixed Grill ----------------------------------- $ 5.70
Charcoal Broiled Sirloin Steak ----------------------- $ 6.95
Mashed Potatoes ------- Fresh String Beans with Almonds
Lyonnaise Potatoes ---- Cauiflower Polonaise
Shiffonade Salad
Dinner Rolls
Choise of Deserts and Beverage
(An extra charge of fifty cents will be made for each meal served outside of Dining Car. Prices shown on this menu are subject to various state, occupation expense, school and sales taxes.)
Note: When desired your steward will arrange special diet, or will quote a la carte prices for individual items listed on this menu.
Well "don't that put the fat in the fire" 1960's style!
rcdrye From front to back on the two E1s are water, fuel, water, fuel. The E1A had the water tank below the cab. The B unit had the tank at the end opposite the S/G.
From front to back on the two E1s are water, fuel, water, fuel. The E1A had the water tank below the cab. The B unit had the tank at the end opposite the S/G.
blue streak 1 Two hoses each loco. 1= fuel 1= water. An indication of how often water needed for diesels may be found from :: The N&W / SOU RR trains used to add water in Monroe, Va , Bristol, Va, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham. http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption
Two hoses each loco. 1= fuel 1= water. An indication of how often water needed for diesels may be found from :: The N&W / SOU RR trains used to add water in Monroe, Va , Bristol, Va, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Birmingham.
http://www.shorpy.com/node/83?size=_original#caption
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