daveklepper New Orleans fun-city. Ed Ellis is showing some ways to bring in more passengers and his lessons should be learned.
The Hoosier State Service (subsidized) seems successful; his CNO was not. The rest of the Pullman Rail Journeys are just excursions, not transportation.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Amtrak stops at places like Hope, AR; Arcadia Valley, MO (when it opens); Wolf Point, MT; etc.; are akin to essential air service.
When I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Dallas recently, I wasn't bothered by stopping at Benson, Arizona, or creeping through flag stop Sanderson, Texas. These small town stops help move people, and probably create allies in the House and Senate.
There is far bigger bloat in gov't that could be addressed before Amtrak.
According to the Missouri Pacific timetable for April 1967, The Texas Eagle, #21 called at Mineola, TX at 6:55 a.m; #22 called there at 6:40 p.m.
In 1958 Mineola was a flag stop for the West Texas Eagle, which was operated by the Texas and Pacific, which in turn was controlled by the Missouri Pacific.
Number 1 called at Mineola at 6:10 a.m.; Number 2 could be flagged for a stop, although the time is not shown. It was due at Grand Saline, which is the stop just before Mineola, at 7:28 p.m. and at Gladewater, which is the next station after Mineola, at 8:17 p.m.
Rio Grande Valley, CFI,CFII
mvs Amtrak stops at places like Hope, AR; Arcadia Valley, MO (when it opens); Wolf Point, MT; etc.; are akin to essential air service. When I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Dallas recently, I wasn't bothered by stopping at Benson, Arizona, or creeping through flag stop Sanderson, Texas. These small town stops help move people, and probably create allies in the House and Senate. There is far bigger bloat in gov't that could be addressed before Amtrak.
Just right -- thank you!
dakotafred mvs Amtrak stops at places like Hope, AR; Arcadia Valley, MO (when it opens); Wolf Point, MT; etc.; are akin to essential air service. When I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Dallas recently, I wasn't bothered by stopping at Benson, Arizona, or creeping through flag stop Sanderson, Texas. These small town stops help move people, and probably create allies in the House and Senate. There is far bigger bloat in gov't that could be addressed before Amtrak. Just right -- thank you!
Sure. Why not have those LD trains stop at every jerkwater town en route, even if only one person boards or alights? It might take 72+ hours to the coast, but who cares?
It doesn't work that way, you might dream it does but really doesn't. Congress is not paying for Amtrak to provide an essential transportation service, it is paying for Amtrak to make Passenger Trains more efficient requiring less subsidy. Each year that passes where the subsidy is ignored or gets worse while Amtrak ignores these issues will erode Congressional support vs building it.
If you want to build Congressional support for Amtrak and see increases in funding year over year you need to demonstrate improvements in scheduling and efficiency, otherwise your adding to Congressional skepticism that Amtrak is an increasing money pit.
Watch C-SPAN and listen to what Congress asks of Amtrak. Never once have I heard a Congressman zeroing in on what essential service it provides to a small town because that is not even in Amtraks Mission statement. It maybe true that Boardman says that as part of his justification but it generally falls on deaf ears because Congress is well aware Amtrak passengers can be moved cheaper by Bus. Congress' intent all along with Amtrak from the very beginning was to preserve the Passenger Train as a leg of the larger transportation system at the least cost possible and preferably that it be profitable.
When Amtrak runs a Long Distance Passenger Train from point A to point B and generally takes the attitude that it does not care when it gets there or how much time it takes.......it both alienates and removes a segment of the market that is sensitive to that area. Market segment removed = Less passengers carried.
If you think it does not matter then stop Auto Train at 30-40 po dunk stations along it's route to Sanford, FL and see how many car toting passengers your left with on the train. After all, each one of those stations might have 1-2 people that want to ride the Auto-Train without the car.
CMStPnPIt doesn't work that way, you might dream it does but really doesn't. Congress is not paying for Amtrak to provide an essential transportation service, it is paying for Amtrak to make Passenger Trains more efficient requiring less subsidy. Each year that passes where the subsidy is ignored or gets worse while Amtrak ignores these issues will erode Congressional support vs building it. If you want to build Congressional support for Amtrak and see increases in funding year over year you need to demonstrate improvements in scheduling and efficiency, otherwise your adding to Congressional skepticism that Amtrak is an increasing money pit.
Thank you for disposing of that mythological justification for Amtrak. I think it dates to Sen. Byrd's train to nowhere, but that was long ago and lives on only in the Cardinal. Running trains for Boy Scouts or as graduation gifts are also non-starters.
schlimm Thank you for disposing of that mythological justification for Amtrak. I think it dates to Sen. Byrd's train to nowhere, but that was long ago and lives on only in the Cardinal.
Thank you for disposing of that mythological justification for Amtrak. I think it dates to Sen. Byrd's train to nowhere, but that was long ago and lives on only in the Cardinal.
In my view, Amtrak gave up on express too early with LD trains. It should bring it back with limits to ensure it is profitable. Noticed Amtrak is finally embracing Private Car carriage with ads on it's timetables relating to such. Which is another step in the revenue enhancement direction.
The mail and express initiative in the early 1990's was a good idea on the face of it. Unfortunately, it covered its own costs but contributed little beyond that to the bottom line.
Our advocates for changing / adding routes are forgetting one simple item. The exhorbant fees the freight RRs want to charge for any train or additional trains on a new or existing route. And there would be no credit for improvements that have been done for cancelled routes.
Until congress slaps the RRs on just not the wrist but on the head the situation is not going to change. Will that happen ? LOL.
schlimm dakotafred mvs Amtrak stops at places like Hope, AR; Arcadia Valley, MO (when it opens); Wolf Point, MT; etc.; are akin to essential air service. When I rode the Texas Eagle from Los Angeles to Dallas recently, I wasn't bothered by stopping at Benson, Arizona, or creeping through flag stop Sanderson, Texas. These small town stops help move people, and probably create allies in the House and Senate. There is far bigger bloat in gov't that could be addressed before Amtrak. Just right -- thank you! Sure. Why not have those LD trains stop at every jerkwater town en route, even if only one person boards or alights? It might take 72+ hours to the coast, but who cares?
Why stop in a town which has contributed very few passengers for the last three years?
CSSHEGEWISCH The mail and express initiative in the early 1990's was a good idea on the face of it. Unfortunately, it covered its own costs but contributed little beyond that to the bottom line.
In my mind, we will never know for sure because it was too short in duration, plus 100% under Amtrak accounting.
My business sense tells me because the immediate costs of expansion and purchasing of capital items, labor, etc for expansion were eating up revenues. Had the experiment gone on for 4-5 years and been allowed to mature we would have had a better picture. I think it was terminated too early due to problems that probably could have been solved over time. I don't think it was a good idea to startup nationwide either, should have been regional at first, far less costly of an experiment.
My understanding from previous threads is that CEO Warrington over-estimated revenue rather badly and under-estimated costs. So often this is the case with start-ups, even those by established companies. A challenge by freight rails to the legality of the Amtrak express operation was turned down by the courts.
CMStPnP CSSHEGEWISCH The mail and express initiative in the early 1990's was a good idea on the face of it. Unfortunately, it covered its own costs but contributed little beyond that to the bottom line. In my mind, we will never know for sure because it was too short in duration, plus 100% under Amtrak accounting. My business sense tells me because the immediate costs of expansion and purchasing of capital items, labor, etc for expansion were eating up revenues. Had the experiment gone on for 4-5 years and been allowed to mature we would have had a better picture. I think it was terminated too early due to problems that probably could have been solved over time. I don't think it was a good idea to startup nationwide either, should have been regional at first, far less costly of an experiment.
dakotafredI sure couldn't see anything wrong with those (6?8?) express boxcars tacked onto the end of the Empire Builder for a couple of years. One of the problems, I know, was delay to the trains, the passengers, because of clumsy switching mechanics in attaching/detaching the cars at either end of the run. Why a problem like this should have been allowed to persist for more than the first week challenges the imagination. Maybe it was monkey-wrenching by the host rails, who resented Amtrak being in the business -- I don't know. Gunn was probably right in deciding the passengers came first and ending a flawed(Warrington) experiment. Although one thinks wistfully of what the business could have meant to Amtrak's bottom line, just as it did to that of the private rails in the old days.
LOL...
Yeah I agree, I saw that too with the too many express boxcars per train and wondered, WTH? If they have that much demand increase the min shipment weight, increase min price paid and establish a min distance to get the traffic down to 2-3 express cars and boost profits more............seems like a no brainer but Amtrak was running the show......sooooo.
They had to tailor it to everyone and make everyone happy except of course their two most important clients, the tenant railroads and their passengers. Still would like to hear the full story of how a five fold increase in Southwest Chief gross revenue, still managed to not add to the bottom line. Thats just incredible, someone is not being honest there. Either Amtrak with the accounting or Ed Ellis with the claim.
If they ever restart it, it should be a privately owned company run almost completely outside Amtrak management reach. Similar to how the Private Passenger Cars are attached and run on Amtrak trains. Remember when Amtrak didn't want that business and fought against it with stupid rules such as the passenger cars had to match the Amtrak paint? They've finally done a 180 on that and are promoting it in some of the timetables now.
Had Amtrak been smarter about this whole thing they would have insisted the Express Service be run via new baggage cars. Then they could have replaced their old baggage cars on the cheap......writing them off with the insolvency or discontinuance of the Express Business. Nope, had to be in express boxcars.
[quote user="JPS1"]
Troup, TX is 19.2 miles from Tyler, TX; Mineola, TX is 25.7 miles from Tyler.
The South Texas sections of The Texas Eagle stopped in Troup at 6:36 a.m. and 8:19 p.m., as per the April 1967 timetable.
Thanks. That must have been the section I rode, and I did use Troup. Makes sense.
Why Hope, Ar?
We have only had Amtrak service for 3 years at this point. The local community put all the money into reestablishing the stop. This was mainly building a new platform and then rebuilding it when Amtrak and UP had built it to the wrong specifications.
Additionally Mike Ross the then congress-man from the district was able to get support from the entire Arkansas congressional delegation, both House and Senate. There is a lot of local support for Amtrak.
Arkadelphia is a flag stop(if memory does not fail me).
One other item Greyhound discontinued service here before Amtrak started service giving more reason for the community to push for it. Greyhounds reason for discontinuing service had more to do with the inability to find a local vendor where the bus could stop without spending a lot of time getting to and from I-30.
IMHO one real impediment to more ridership has been the lack of reliable service to Dallas/Fort Worth. One thing my son discovered is initially there were quit a few passengers using the Texas Eagle from Arkansas and east Texas to get to DFW for flights elsewhere(my son included, he was flying to London). Recently DART has started light rail service to DFW. There is no weekend service from the Centreport Station(on Trinity Rail Express) to DFW. There is talk of having the Texas Eagle stop there.
narig01 One other item Greyhound discontinued service here before Amtrak started service giving more reason for the community to push for it. Greyhounds reason for discontinuing service had more to do with the inability to find a local vendor where the bus could stop without spending a lot of time getting to and from I-30. IMHO one real impediment to more ridership has been the lack of reliable service to Dallas/Fort Worth. One thing my son discovered is initially there were quit a few passengers using the Texas Eagle from Arkansas and east Texas to get to DFW for flights elsewhere(my son included, he was flying to London). Recently DART has started light rail service to DFW. There is no weekend service from the Centreport Station(on Trinity Rail Express) to DFW. There is talk of having the Texas Eagle stop there.
Actually, you meant to say no SUNDAY service to DFW Airport, which I do not understand myself why they shutdown TRE completely on Sunday. The DART Light rail line is not as fast and a rather long ride from downtown.
Greyhound has a program where they like to stop at gas/convinence store combos so their passengers can run into the convinence store and buy something to eat or stretch their legs in a well lighted parking lot or use the restroom which is probably cleaner than the one on the bus. They typically also want that gas/convience store to also sell their tickets in return for the patronage they provide. They would have accepted a small park and ride lot with a bus shelter, ticketing kiosk and vending machines though. Which although more expensive than the Amtrak stop to Hope was still probably within financial reach.
Problem I have with Hope as a infrequent Dallas to Chicago passenger is the time it takes to stop there. Whenever I ride the train, nobody gets on at Hope. So we just sit there for 3-5 min and I would rather be rolling. I would be happier if it was a flagstop and the train could roll through without stopping unless there was a ticketed passenger wanting to get on. Not too difficult to accomplish with an all reserved train. Conductor should know as we approach Hope if any tickets have been sold for that specific train arriving at that location.
The other issue I have as a Dallas to Chicago through passenger is the padding in the schedule and how the train is not run on a tighter schedule with a better on time record. Everytime I ride the Texas Eagle it is late arriving into Chicago, the last time it was almost two full hours late. With all the padding that only happens because nobody is really monitoring the trains performance or cares about it. Texas Eagle should have at least an 18 hour Dallas to Chicago schedule vs the 22 hours it uses now. Pretty sure it can cut 4 hours easy without a lot of challenge to the operating crew or tenant railroads. Once it hits that target I would attempt to lop off 2 more hours to bring it down to 16.
CMStPnPProblem I have with Hope as a infrequent Dallas to Chicago passenger is the time it takes to stop there. Whenever I ride the train, nobody gets on at Hope. So we just sit there for 3-5 min and I would rather be rolling. I would be happier if it was a flagstop and the train could roll through without stopping unless there was a ticketed passenger wanting to get on. Not too difficult to accomplish with an all reserved train. Conductor should know as we approach Hope if any tickets have been sold for that specific train arriving at that location.
Flagstops were quite common on secondary trains as late as the mid-60s. The concept is simple and should NOT be beyond Amtrak personnel's abilities.
If I recall correctly, Amtrak did have flag stops on startup. Even Newark, DL, and New Brunswick were flag stops at one time with Amtrak. Anyone have the 1971 timetable?
daveklepper If I recall correctly, Amtrak did have flag stops on startup. Even Newark, DL, and New Brunswick were flag stops at one time with Amtrak. Anyone have the 1971 timetable?
In electronic form: http://www.timetables.org/browse/?group=19710501&st=0001
I couldn't find Newark, DE in the New York-Washington schedules. New Brunswick was listed in the New York-Philadelphia schedules but they weren't listed as flag stops.
Philly Amtrak Fan daveklepper If I recall correctly, Amtrak did have flag stops on startup. Even Newark, DL, and New Brunswick were flag stops at one time with Amtrak. Anyone have the 1971 timetable? In electronic form: http://www.timetables.org/browse/?group=19710501&st=0001 I couldn't find Newark, DE in the New York-Washington schedules. New Brunswick was listed in the New York-Philadelphia schedules but they weren't listed as flag stops.
In the June 11, 1972 TT, there are flag and conditional stops and also stops to receive only or discharge only on many LD trains, such as the Broadway, National, Floridian, Meteor, Silver Star, Texas Chief, Super Chief, Chief, SF Zephyr, North Coast Hiawatha, and EB.
Sooo, according to the 1971 Timetable the Texas Chief arrived in Fort Worth from Chicago with three hours less of travel time (and via Kansas City) and an additional 30 miles to travel compared to the current Texas Eagle. I know the track is in better shape now than it was in 1971. Pretty sad the schedule has deteriorated so much with Amtrak.
The funny thing is that I distinctly remember New Brunswick being a flag stop on the Florida trains (boarding only southbound, discharge only northbound) by the mid-Seventies. At one point I think there was (very limited, something like one train per day) service to Princeton Junction.
Newark, Delaware is interesting for a couple of reasons: it's the south end of SEPTA coverage, and it's a university town. I can understand why (perhaps only at certain times of year) it would make sense to have some Amtrak trains stop there rather than go up to Wilmington. The thing is I don't think the Florida trains would 'qualify' as a likely market for Newark, and as I recall it was a really rudimentary facility - not even inside bathrooms - so there would have to be compelling "clientele" reasons to make it an optional stop.
No inside bathrooms--were there outside bathrooms? That is what was available in my home town--and they were still there after passenger service was discontinued--for the benefit of the agent?
Johnny
CMStPnP Sooo, according to the 1971 Timetable the Texas Chief arrived in Fort Worth from Chicago with three hours less of travel time (and via Kansas City) and an additional 30 miles to travel compared to the current Texas Eagle. I know the track is in better shape now than it was in 1971. Pretty sad the schedule has deteriorated so much with Amtrak.
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