You do realize there are plenty of people who either are afraid of or don't like to fly (I'm included in that group).
Philly Amtrak Fan You do realize there are plenty of people who either are afraid of or don't like to fly (I'm included in that group).
As I said, those who have aviophobia. But rather than not travel or expect the government to provide for your trip, why not seek competent therapy with a clinical psychologist trained in treating specific phobias? Success is possible with evidence-based therapies, usually in six sessions.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
There are people who cannot fly because of medical reasons, but can endure long train trips. Older people may have to use the facilities often, say once every hour. Disaster can occur when the seat-belt sign is lit and the need arises. There are other problems.
JPS1 daveklepper Rather than give up Hope, I would add a regular scheduled van service to and from Tyler, which is a much larger community without rail service. I think such a service would double the riddership at Hope. A similar situation exists with the Cardinal at Prince for Frostberg. The closest Amtrak station to Tyler, TX is Mineola, TX, which is 25.7 miles away. Longview is 37.8 miles from Tyler; it is more than 150 miles to Hope. So there is no hope for Hope for Tyler people who want to catch the Eagle, unless they are hopelessly enamored of the idea of catching a train from Hope, which must be a last hope.
daveklepper Rather than give up Hope, I would add a regular scheduled van service to and from Tyler, which is a much larger community without rail service. I think such a service would double the riddership at Hope. A similar situation exists with the Cardinal at Prince for Frostberg.
Rather than give up Hope, I would add a regular scheduled van service to and from Tyler, which is a much larger community without rail service. I think such a service would double the riddership at Hope.
A similar situation exists with the Cardinal at Prince for Frostberg.
The closest Amtrak station to Tyler, TX is Mineola, TX, which is 25.7 miles away. Longview is 37.8 miles from Tyler; it is more than 150 miles to Hope.
So there is no hope for Hope for Tyler people who want to catch the Eagle, unless they are hopelessly enamored of the idea of catching a train from Hope, which must be a last hope.
Further correction, I believe the Texas Eagle ran non-stop through Mineola, and the station I actually did use for Tyler was Troop, TX. Does that check out? Is it an Amtrak stop today?
daveklepper Further correction, I believe the Texas Eagle ran non-stop through Mineola, and the station I actually did use for Tyler was Troop, TX. Does that check out? Is it an Amtrak stop today?
Johnny
schlimmHeck, if I were a business traveler from DFW to ORD this Tuesday, I could be put on a flight at 6:10 am -> 8:35 am; go to the scheduled meetings and fly back 8:50 pm -> 11:13 pm, all for $123 RT inc. taxes, etc. on coach. Sounds a lot better than 22 hours on a train, leaving Monday afternoon, getting to Chicago at 1:52 pm Tuesday. Maybe you could manage some business still on Tuesday, but likely you'd have to overnight in a hotel, conclude business Tuesday morning, catch the train at 1:45 pm, returning to Dallas on Wednesday at 11:30 in the morning. Three days vs. one; a lot more expense and two nights on a train. Even in a bedroom, my bed at home is far more comfortable. I doubt if many businesses would approve of such a transport for their employees and very few would ever choose it.
OK well first, I wasn't talking about the Texas Eagle as viable for business travel. I specifically mentioned Buffalo to Chicago then stated even that was not viable due to the lack of frequency of connections.
Back to the Business Traveler though....
The problem is you presume you set the meeting times and can control what is available to your company via your travel agency which you are forced to book though. Stand by what I said earlier, very few large businesses are going to get a fare that low, it's unrealistic and if it exists, it is a one time anomoly for the dates given. Average fare for DFW to ORD for business travel is $400 min RT, maybe $300 if your really lucky Additionally most clients will want you onsite for more than a single day if they are paying for airfare....even sales folks, min 3 days typically. Also the decision for you to be onsite for an initial meeting rarely happens with 2 weeks advance notice, usually 1 week is all you get. With recurring visits you might be able to snag the 2 week advance purchase.
JPS1 All the Dallas to Chicago fares are one way. They are for travel on October 5th, and they are the lowest Internet fares. According to Travelocity, American and United are quoting DFW to ORD fares ranging from $54.10 to $101.10 for October 5th. Planning ahead usually results in a better fare than the walk-up fare. Not every business person can plan several weeks in advance, but many can and do. Each situation is different. People who work for organizations with pay for performance systems, where the cost of travel is charged back to their department, have an incentive to keep costs low. One way to do that is through better planning, especially for discretionary travel.
All the Dallas to Chicago fares are one way. They are for travel on October 5th, and they are the lowest Internet fares.
According to Travelocity, American and United are quoting DFW to ORD fares ranging from $54.10 to $101.10 for October 5th.
Planning ahead usually results in a better fare than the walk-up fare. Not every business person can plan several weeks in advance, but many can and do. Each situation is different.
People who work for organizations with pay for performance systems, where the cost of travel is charged back to their department, have an incentive to keep costs low. One way to do that is through better planning, especially for discretionary travel.
I would use the airline websites for fare quotes, travelocity is frequently inaccurate and is secondarily updated compared with airline systems with current seat inventory which leads to problems as well sometimes.
Use of one way tickets are restricted under most Frequent Flyer rules. You'll find. If that was not the case you would find Business travelers using them to reverse the travel direction on seasonal routes that apply yield management for the cheaper fare..........so they have restrictions on the use of one way fares on most FF program rules (and the airlines have gotcha programs monitoring one way ticket usage) and most businessmen are not going to risk cancellation of FF membership to save money on airfare when the client is reimbursing in most cases. So you need to be real cautious with one way tickets and usage of them. If an airline sees a FF using a one way ticket........red flags go up.
CMStPnPBack to the Business Traveler though.... The problem is you presume you set the meeting times and can control what is available to your company via your travel agency which you are forced to book though. Stand by what I said earlier, very few large businesses are going to get a fare that low, it's unrealistic and if it exists, it is a one time anomoly for the dates given.
Cheaper fares are easy to obtain, even with only a few days advance warning. I was not referring to a consultant or outside contractor. I was referring to folks going to meetings at their regional or headquarters or the guy going to a trade show, where planning is done far in advance. Spending days on LD trains rather than a few hours on a plane is a non-starter. That's why very few business people have used trains outside the NEC and one or two other corridors in the past 50 years.
Re: Schlimm on fear of flying, toward the top of this 2nd page (I forgot to hit the reply button):
Fear of flying is not necessarily irrational. While statistically safer than driving, unlike in driving you relinquish 100 percent of control, vs. 50 percent behind the wheel. In a given situation, I'd rather have 50 percent of control.
DPM used to say safety stats favored train over plane travel. Whether that is still true or not, if something happens on the rails, at least you're still on the ground (in more ways than one).
I'm sure one could be conditioned, by a psychologist or somebody else, to get over his fear of walking down a bad street in a worse part of town at night. It doesn't mean he should be.
http://www.bustle.com/articles/83287-are-trains-safer-than-planes-statistics-are-clear-about-which-mode-of-transportation-is-safest
"But trains are still only the second-safest option, with the first-safest option being — you guess it — flying."
So if you are worried about "giving up 100 percent control", the logical choice would be flying.
An "expensive model collector"
CMStPnP Use of one way tickets are restricted under most Frequent Flyer rules. You'll find. If that was not the case you would find Business travelers using them to reverse the travel direction on seasonal routes that apply yield management for the cheaper fare..........so they have restrictions on the use of one way fares on most FF program rules (and the airlines have gotcha programs monitoring one way ticket usage) and most businessmen are not going to risk cancellation of FF membership to save money on airfare when the client is reimbursing in most cases. So you need to be real cautious with one way tickets and usage of them. If an airline sees a FF using a one way ticket........red flags go up.
I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts.....
BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO.
n012944I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts..... BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO.
I don't care what you did or got away with. I was talking about Business Travelers in General that fly frequently. If you like Delta better, stay on Delta what do I care? People swear by Aeroflot and Ryanair as well. Delta's service sucks in and out of DFW.
Folks in the Pacific NW like the Talgo.......you'll never find me riding one of those either. Sorry I have higher standards.
dakotafredBusiness travel by rail will never happen again until restoration of overnight (preferably sleeper) service between major markets
It is happening on the NEC primarily because of frequency and multiple times of departure. Speed plays a role but as we see on Chicago to Milwaukee 70-80 mph trains can make it as well with enough frequency. It wasn't too long ago folks were saying Chicago to Milwaukee was too short a trip to ever make a profit.
CMStPnP n012944 I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts..... BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO. I don't care what you did or got away with.
n012944 I recently flew ORD-MSP-LAX on Delta, with a LAX-ORD return on AA. I doubt any red flags were raised, and I will keep both of my FF accounts..... BTW, I flew 1st class both ways, and the Delta service and product blew away the AA service and product. AA is becoming too much like US Air IMHO.
I don't care what you did or got away with.
Sigh.....with a little bit of LOL as well.
dakotafredRe: Schlimm on fear of flying, toward the top of this 2nd page (I forgot to hit the reply button): Fear of flying is not necessarily irrational. While statistically safer than driving, unlike in driving you relinquish 100 percent of control, vs. 50 percent behind the wheel. In a given situation, I'd rather have 50 percent of control.
According to a 2013 study by economist Ian Savage, trains are the second-safest mode of transportation in the U.S. Between 2000 and 2009, the number of deaths per billion passenger-miles caused by trains was 0.43. In comparison, the number of deaths caused by cars was 7.3 and the number of deaths caused by motorcycles was a disturbing 213. According to that same study, the number of deaths per billion passenger-miles caused by airplanes was 0.07. Trains are 6X as deadly.
Why are people trying to convince people that flying is safer on trains ... on a message board about trains? This is a niche audience that Amtrak can use to build up its LD trains and you want to convince them not to take their trains?
Deggesty daveklepper Further correction, I believe the Texas Eagle ran non-stop through Mineola, and the station I actually did use for Tyler was Troop, TX. Does that check out? Is it an Amtrak stop today? Dave, Troup is on the former IGN, not the former T&P. I don't think that the Texas Eagle ever went though there. I do not have all of my old Amtrak timetables here, but Longview is now the stop for Tyler, and Mineola is a stop.
Dave, Troup is on the former IGN, not the former T&P. I don't think that the Texas Eagle ever went though there. I do not have all of my old Amtrak timetables here, but Longview is now the stop for Tyler, and Mineola is a stop.
[/quote above]
Possibly an emergency rerout at the time I rode? Possible?
Philly Amtrak Fan Why are people trying to convince people that flying is safer on trains ... on a message board about trains? This is a niche audience that Amtrak can use to build up its LD trains and you want to convince them not to take their trains?
Because some of us prefer truth. And the future of passenger rail is corridors up to 500 miles with HSR.
Are the railroad figures only passenger fatalities? Or did they lump in gradecrossing and tresspass stuff? Can you be sure?
Is hope, Arkensas, where a KCS branch from Shreveport meets the MP main line, a branch that had mixed or passenger service at one time?
Possibly that is why it stuck in my memory. At one time the Shreveport - St. Louis overnight sleeper ran that way? But when I rode the sleeper it went via Little Rock.
I agree with Schlimm that the future for huge expansion of passenger services is with corredors, but:
In certain cases corredors can and should be end-to-end combined to provide long-distance service as well. Best examples are Bangor, Maine - Atlanta and Florida, and New York - Chicago and St. Louis.
In other cases, the Western Long distance trains, a holding operation preserving what is left meets specific needs and doesn't throw away support for the corridors.
The needs again are tourism, handicapped wounded and elderly, and emergencies.
But once the corredors are funded, bult, and in operation, these long distance trains would be a tiny fraction of the train-miles and passenger-miles.
daveklepper Is hope, Arkensas, where a KCS branch from Shreveport meets the MP main line, a branch that had mixed or passenger service at one time? Possibly that is why it stuck in my memory. At one time the Shreveport - St. Louis overnight sleeper ran that way? But when I rode the sleeper it went via Little Rock.
By the tine I rode, I think the L&A was part of KCS.
The L&A was acquired in 1939. I think he meant the train ran on the former L&A RoW.
daveklepperIn other cases, the Western Long distance trains, a holding operation preserving what is left meets specific needs and doesn't throw away support for the corridors. The needs again are tourism, handicapped wounded and elderly, and emergencies. But once the corredors are funded, bult, and in operation, these long distance trains would be a tiny fraction of the train-miles and passenger-miles.
Ideally, yes. But realistically, the LD trains are a money hole that cannot be sustained. They use up so much of Amtrak's operating budget and a lot of equipment capital funding, both of which should be used for HigherSR corridors, including new ones.
But with economies of scale, their losses will be reduced once major corridors are in place, and the take from the overall budget with be trivial compared to the overall budget. However, note my constant harping on the idea that LD losses have to be reduced with far more efficient, but still good quality, food service, better marketing where capacity exists, such as Atlanta and Birminghiam, lots of colleges and universities - New Orleans fun-city. Ed Ellis is showing some ways to bring in more passengers and his lessons should be learned.
Aain, is it possible that a temporary rerout put the Eagle through Troup? The second time I visited Tyler I rode the San Francisco Chief to Amarillo, and rented a car to drive south to Tyler, then returned the car north to Amarillo and rode the SF Chief back to Chicago. Enjoyed a full-length dome on the SF Chief if I remember correctly. Plus the usual excellent AT&SF food and service.
I think there is an Interstate north-south between Tyler and Amarillo. Is that correct? I think that is one reason I planned the trip the way I did.
I am not completely on board (sorry for the pun) with the abandonment of LD trains. Agree it should not be provided or funded by the government but also feel the government should work to keep the niche open to private business.
Definitely think there is a proven niche for some type of LD train service. If that were not the case, there would not be a Rocky Mountineer nor would Ed Eillis be running LD charter trains. Also think the Alaska Railroad would end most of it's Passenger Service. So there is a niche for well run and well managed LD service, though I agree the government should not be subsidizing it. Just because Amtrak could not make a go of something and because the Private Railroads could not manage change with the loss of the Postal contracts......doesn't mean we close the door completely.
daveklepperEd Ellis is showing some ways to bring in more passengers and his lessons should be learned.
He made the claim that with the Express Business he turned the 7-8 million a year Southwest Chief into a 51 million a year venture. Then commented Amtraks books were cooked............no further explanation. So the emotion expressed there has me curious what happened and it is too bad he doesn't elaborate more (confidentiality agreements?). Important parts of the story are missing in my view.
I like the Krebs (BNSF) analogy on Passenger trains. "Running Amtrak on Single Track with Freight is like running a Ferrarri behind a string of loaded dump trucks".
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